Does the Greek embassy issue certificate of income.

[sirineou]

The question is , Does the Greek embassy still offer a certificate of income, and is such certificate still sufficient for an extension to stay based on marriage? 

A litle Background, I live in the US , and is a US citizen, so is my Thai wife who holds dual passports. I was born in Greece but my parents migrated to the US when I was a a very young age , I grew up in the US, the US is all I know, I consider myself an American of Greek ancestry.

My Older brother is now retired in Greece and while visiting there and staying with him we decided to maybe get a litle place near him and vacation there. It has being suggested that it would be a good idea , because I was born in Greece and since I would be spending a few months there to get a Greek passport and ID.

   I don't do extensions to stay in Thailand yet, because I pop in and out of the country often enough not to need them yet, but I will be 63 next June , will be retiring soon, and in exploring my different options, the above question occurred to me . 

 Given that the US no  longer offers income certificates, would it be better to use the "Greek" option. (I will have more than enough income , but all of it would be from the US, Social security. Work Pension, Annuity.)

Thank you all in advance. 

[Jingthing]

I think that they do and their income letter is as good as any other. 

CORRECTED. Sorry I see you can get a Greek passport.

Edited September 28, 2019 by Jingthing

[sirineou]

20 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

I think that they do and their income letter is as good as any other. 

But you didn't bother to mention whether you can get a Greek passport because I don't see why they would deal with you for the letter without one. 

Thank you for that reply

I realise my Op is a litle difficult to read, My apologies. 

Buried in there was the following sentence. 

" My Older brother is now retired in Greece and while visiting there and staying with him we decided to maybe get a litle place near him and vacation there. It has being suggested that it would be a good idea , because I was born in Greece and since I would be spending a few months there to get a Greek passport and ID."

So I have being considering, getting a Greek passport and ID, still exploring if the benefits are worth any negatives, as I am retiring the last thing I need is more complications. 

If I get a Greek passport, and decide to use that option for getting an extension to stay based on marriage, I guess I would have to enter Thailand on my Greek passport. 

The follow up question is, do you think it would be a problem , or would it raise any red flags that all of my income is from the US. Or even if Greece would certify income from the US, (i guess I have to ask then that) 

Anyway just thinking out loud .

 

PS: got your PM concerning the correction. Thank you????

Edited September 28, 2019 by sirineou

[dimitriv]

How can a Greek embassy can give you a certificate of income if that income comes from the US ?

 

The idea was that the US embassy checked your income from the US and issued some kind of statement that you received that money every month. When it became clear that they didn't check anything but just issued some papers and the Thai immigration office started to complain they stopped with issuing these letters.

 

Some people are angry with the embassies. But in reality most of them do not have the ability to control income. 

[sirineou]

17 minutes ago, dimitriv said:

How can a Greek embassy can give you a certificate of income if that income comes from the US ?

That is a good question.

in my follow up question to Jingthing I was wondering the same.

  I guess that's  something I would have to ask them, and will do so just as soon as I get back in Thailand. I guess I could also send them an Email  but even though I speak Greek, I cant write at any level that would not get laughed at, and writing them in English might raise some questions I rather not get into with them  right now.

There must be some sort of mechanism for them to certify an income from outside the US as I am sure there are many Greeks with incomes outside of Greece 

As I said. just thinking out loud, and is posting these thought here for confirmation on their validity from those who have some experience with such matters. 

Thank you for your reply????

Edited September 28, 2019 by sirineou
corrected incoherent sentence

[Jingthing]

This is clearly a specific question for the Greek embassy. All I know about their process for letters is that I don't recall they were ever on the short list of embassies screwing their nationals by stopping the letters.

Second passports can be useful!

Sent from my Lenovo A7020a48 using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[Matzzon]

18 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

the short list of embassies screwing their nationals by stopping the letters

Nobody has been screwed! The only difference is that you need to show real evidence of money now, instead of a self-made declaration on a worthless piece of paper.

[theoldgit]

16 hours ago, Matzzon said:

Nobody has been screwed! The only difference is that you need to show real evidence of money now, instead of a self-made declaration on a worthless piece of paper.

Whilst I can't speak for all embassies, the British Embassy required proof of funds before they would issue a letter, so hardly "a self-made declaration on a worthless piece of paper", in my case a Government Pension and a pension as a long term government employee, so I was certainly hung out to dry.

[Jingthing]

1 hour ago, theoldgit said:

Whilst I can't speak for all embassies, the British Embassy required proof of funds before they would issue a letter, so hardly "a self-made declaration on a worthless piece of paper", in my case a Government Pension and a pension as a long term government employee, so I was certainly hung out to dry.

Yes, but in the case of what the U.S. embassy was doing and their lame excuse for stopping it was indeed to simply accept whatever figure the expat said and then the expat swore to it's truth. Fine that Thailand demanded more but the embassy refused to do more. That's why American expats should be very angry. What they could have done which they claim they aren't allowed to do is simply to look at pension benefit statements from Social Security and/or military pensions and accepted those for income letter. That's exactly what some OTHER U.S. embassies do for their nationals in other countries for visa related qualification purposes. As others have mentioned they could look at tax returns as well. The U.S. embassy has indeed SCREWED it's own nationals in Thailand. It's clear they didn't make any effort to find an accommodation. Just cut us off cold. 

[OJAS]

On 9/29/2019 at 10:09 AM, theoldgit said:

Whilst I can't speak for all embassies, the British Embassy required proof of funds before they would issue a letter, so hardly "a self-made declaration on a worthless piece of paper", in my case a Government Pension and a pension as a long term government employee, so I was certainly hung out to dry.

You might be interested in seeing, for what they might be worth, my recent (or fairly recent) email exchanges with the British Embassy attached on the whole income confirmation issue.

Embassy email exchanges.pdf

Edited September 30, 2019 by OJAS

[sirineou]

On 9/29/2019 at 12:52 AM, Jingthing said:

Yes, but in the case of what the U.S. embassy was doing and their lame excuse for stopping it was indeed to simply accept whatever figure the expat said and then the expat swore to it's truth. Fine that Thailand demanded more but the embassy refused to do more. That's why American expats should be very angry. What they could have done which they claim they aren't allowed to do is simply to look at pension benefit statements from Social Security and/or military pensions and accepted those for income letter. That's exactly what some OTHER U.S. embassies do for their nationals in other countries for visa related qualification purposes. As others have mentioned they could look at tax returns as well. The U.S. embassy has indeed SCREWED it's own nationals in Thailand. It's clear they didn't make any effort to find an accommodation. Just cut us off cold. 

Absolutely right!!! 

I can check by Social Security account in one second on line, why cant the embassy do this with my consent???

Same with my prudential annuity checked on line in seconds.. 

  I can order a certified tax return record online, good enough for a bank to lend me thousands of dollars, but the US government  can't   check their own records??? 

A fee for the service should compensate for costs  and even provide a profit, and a simple waiver should alleviate any privacy concerns.

IMO the whole situation is ridiculous. 

  

[sirineou]

35 minutes ago, OJAS said:

You might be interested in seeing, for what they might be worth, my recent (or fairly recent) email exchanges with the British Embassy attached on the whole income confirmation issue.

Embassy email exchanges.pdf 112.2 kB · 6 downloads

 Incredible !!! if I understood the reply to your email correctly, the British government claims that they can't verify their own documents.

[OJAS]

22 hours ago, sirineou said:

 Incredible !!! if I understood the reply to your email correctly, the British government claims that they can't verify their own documents.

They can, in the form of their Legalisation Office. However, as you will see from the following PDF links, they appear to have have closely collaborated with their Thai counterparts in order to make this as bureaucratically and cumbersomely difficult a task to accomplish as is humanly possible, especially in the case of us Brits living in Thailand who are in the unfortunate position of requiring a UK document of ours to be legalised at the behest of the powers-that-be here in LOS:-

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/714089/Legalisation_info_June_2018.pdf

 

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/714090/Legalisation_info_graphic_June_2018.pdf

 

 

 

Edited October 1, 2019 by OJAS

[soalbundy]

On 9/28/2019 at 4:35 PM, dimitriv said:

How can a Greek embassy can give you a certificate of income if that income comes from the US ?

 

The idea was that the US embassy checked your income from the US and issued some kind of statement that you received that money every month. When it became clear that they didn't check anything but just issued some papers and the Thai immigration office started to complain they stopped with issuing these letters.

 

Some people are angry with the embassies. But in reality most of them do not have the ability to control income. 

They can look at the US documents. I get a German pension (I worked as a British citizen in Germany for 40 years) the German embassy certifies my German pension and my small British pension at the same time. They needed the original British letter informing me of my pension, they can apparently tell if the document is genuine because the first time I did this I brought a copy instead of the original and that was refused, I had to go all the way back to Surin to get the original.

[Srikcir]

On 9/28/2019 at 4:15 PM, sirineou said:

since I would be spending a few months there to get a Greek passport and ID.

Why not get an non-O-A visa (sometimes referred as a "retirement" visa) from the Thai embassy in Greece using your Greek documents and proof of monthly income of minimum Bt65k per month?

Then it would seem to follow that subsequent annual extensions of the non O-A visa obtained in Thailand would simply require a statement of income from the Greek embassy in Thailand.

Should the Thailand embassy reject your proof of monthly income Ie., source not Greece), surely Thailand immigration will reject it as well.

[Thaidream]

On 9/28/2019 at 5:45 PM, Matzzon said:

Nobody has been screwed! The only difference is that you need to show real evidence of money now, instead of a self-made declaration on a worthless piece of paper.

You are completely wrong!   The US Embassy when issuing an income letter- made the applicant take an oath indicating that what was being stated was correct and true. As part of that Oath- if the applicant lied- they would be subject to prosecution as a felon under the US code. these letters are not worthless and would be acepted today and it should be noted that some South American countries do indeed accept  similar letters as of this date. In addition- Thnai Immigration sometimes asked to see the actual proof and still do in some cases.

 

The Us Embassy refused to negotiate with Thai Immigration and provide an explanation of what iUS law allows.  Because of this- many Us citizens have had to call their banks each month and transfer funds adding more costs to their living in Thailand. In addition, because of this Thai Immigration has now changed the way it handles the 800K for retirment extensions, forcing the applicant to keep  400K all year round in a Thai bank and  blocking the full 800K for 5 months.  All this because - 3 larrogant Embassies refuse to issue  an income letter

 

Australia had a similar proces. The UK actually looked at the proof but never issued any Oath.

 

The Embassies were allegedly asked to verify from source which is imposible under privacy laws.  The other 80 Embassies still issue the letters and they do not  go back to source and some view documentation submitted by the applicant. Thai Immigration still accepts these letters and IMO -Thai Imm would still accept  the letters from the US'AUS/UK if these embassies  would relent and help their citizens.

 

I am sure greece issues  the letter- but since the income is sourced in the US- they may question  doing it. Only the Greek Embassy can answer the OP's question/

[Max69xl]

On 9/28/2019 at 4:33 PM, sirineou said:

Thank you for that reply

I realise my Op is a litle difficult to read, My apologies. 

Buried in there was the following sentence. 

" My Older brother is now retired in Greece and while visiting there and staying with him we decided to maybe get a litle place near him and vacation there. It has being suggested that it would be a good idea , because I was born in Greece and since I would be spending a few months there to get a Greek passport and ID."

So I have being considering, getting a Greek passport and ID, still exploring if the benefits are worth any negatives, as I am retiring the last thing I need is more complications. 

If I get a Greek passport, and decide to use that option for getting an extension to stay based on marriage, I guess I would have to enter Thailand on my Greek passport. 

The follow up question is, do you think it would be a problem , or would it raise any red flags that all of my income is from the US. Or even if Greece would certify income from the US, (i guess I have to ask then that) 

Anyway just thinking out loud .

 

PS: got your PM concerning the correction. Thank you????

Doesn't the Greek embassy have a website? That's where you should look. 

[gk10002000]

On 9/28/2019 at 9:52 PM, Jingthing said:

Yes, but in the case of what the U.S. embassy was doing and their lame excuse for stopping it was indeed to simply accept whatever figure the expat said and then the expat swore to it's truth. Fine that Thailand demanded more but the embassy refused to do more. That's why American expats should be very angry. What they could have done which they claim they aren't allowed to do is simply to look at pension benefit statements from Social Security and/or military pensions and accepted those for income letter. That's exactly what some OTHER U.S. embassies do for their nationals in other countries for visa related qualification purposes. As others have mentioned they could look at tax returns as well. The U.S. embassy has indeed SCREWED it's own nationals in Thailand. It's clear they didn't make any effort to find an accommodation. Just cut us off cold. 

What they should do is contract out to some firm or bidder to provide a service whereby for some nominal fee you provide your evidence of income, and they apply some agreed upon and clearly stated tests to verify the income is proper.  They issue some sort of report to the embassy/official, then the embassy issues the income letter.  99% of the problems solved.  Of course there will be some edge cases that do not easily pass the income test.  And there will be some disputes or ignorance on the 3rd party verifiers about their decisions or rulings. 

[Matzzon]

9 hours ago, Thaidream said:

You are completely wrong!   The US Embassy when issuing an income letter- made the applicant take an oath indicating that what was being stated was correct and true. As part of that Oath- if the applicant lied- they would be subject to prosecution as a felon under the US code.

The start of your post was worthless. Still many people didn´t care about that. And now you stand in the <deleted>. Deal with like people that can show the real money instead.

If everybody was so good in declaring the righeous amount, then it can not be a problem to show it in real life.

[Matzzon]

On 9/29/2019 at 5:09 AM, theoldgit said:

Whilst I can't speak for all embassies, the British Embassy required proof of funds before they would issue a letter, so hardly "a self-made declaration on a worthless piece of paper", in my case a Government Pension and a pension as a long term government employee, so I was certainly hung out to dry.

Ok, that´s different to US, where they only have to swear an oath to get the stamp. Then you are suffering because of US citizens that could not be truthful in their declarations.

However, I just wonder how you can suffer or be hung out to dry? If your 2 pensions are real, then it´s just to bring em to a Thai bank account if you wish to stay here. That´s the rules, and not anything about hung out to dry, getting screwed or not can do.

[Peter Denis]

On 9/28/2019 at 11:15 AM, sirineou said:

 I don't do extensions to stay in Thailand yet, because I pop in and out of the country often enough not to need them yet, but I will be 63 next June , will be retiring soon, and in exploring my different options, the above question occurred to me . 

 Given that the US no  longer offers income certificates, would it be better to use the "Greek" option. (I will have more than enough income , but all of it would be from the US, Social security. Work Pension, Annuity.)

You indicate in your original post that you will soon be 63 years of age, have more than sufficient income, live in the US and often come to Thailand.
Imo the easiest solution for you would be to apply for a Non Imm OA - retiree Visa in the US, since you clearly meet the +50 years criterium and from what you write I presume that you also meet the financial criteria for such a Visa.  RE the income letter, that problem would then only kick in at the end of the 2nd year after the Visa has been issued.  And can be easily circumvented by applying for a new Non Imm OA Visa when at the end of the 2nd year you are once again in US for one of your trips.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Peter Denis

[CMNightRider]

US Embassy officials should be embarrassed by the way they threw their citizens under the bus when refusing to no longer issue income verification letters.     

[Max69xl]

11 hours ago, Thaidream said:

You are completely wrong!   The US Embassy when issuing an income letter- made the applicant take an oath indicating that what was being stated was correct and true. As part of that Oath- if the applicant lied- they would be subject to prosecution as a felon under the US code. these letters are not worthless and would be acepted today and it should be noted that some South American countries do indeed accept  similar letters as of this date. In addition- Thnai Immigration sometimes asked to see the actual proof and still do in some cases.

 

The Us Embassy refused to negotiate with Thai Immigration and provide an explanation of what iUS law allows.  Because of this- many Us citizens have had to call their banks each month and transfer funds adding more costs to their living in Thailand. In addition, because of this Thai Immigration has now changed the way it handles the 800K for retirment extensions, forcing the applicant to keep  400K all year round in a Thai bank and  blocking the full 800K for 5 months.  All this because - 3 larrogant Embassies refuse to issue  an income letter

 

Australia had a similar proces. The UK actually looked at the proof but never issued any Oath.

 

The Embassies were allegedly asked to verify from source which is imposible under privacy laws.  The other 80 Embassies still issue the letters and they do not  go back to source and some view documentation submitted by the applicant. Thai Immigration still accepts these letters and IMO -Thai Imm would still accept  the letters from the US'AUS/UK if these embassies  would relent and help their citizens.

 

I am sure greece issues  the letter- but since the income is sourced in the US- they may question  doing it. Only the Greek Embassy can answer the OP's question/

He is not wrong. An affidavit based on an "oath" is not more than a lie. 

How hard is it to require a stamped and signed document that states the actual income/pension? It was the same at the UK embassy,and they said "we are not experts in verifying documents". That's just bs. They could easily have required proper documents like other embassies do. If I would use the  >65k method I have to submit 4 original documents, all stamped and signed,then the embassy/consulate will issue an income letter that 100% shows my actual income. That's what Immigration wants. Not a phony affidavit. 

[gk10002000]

5 hours ago, Matzzon said:

The start of your post was worthless. Still many people didn´t care about that. And now you stand in the <deleted>. Deal with like people that can show the real money instead.

If everybody was so good in declaring the righeous amount, then it can not be a problem to show it in real life.

I have plenty of real money.  I am a single millionaire.  But I did not get there by just blindly taking money from very safe places into somewhat unsafe places.   I just have no intention nor desire to un invest it from my dividend and interest equities those monies are lying in my USA investments.  And I don't feel like putting 800k baht  or 26,000 USD into a country that has poor checks and balances and laws that do not favor foreigners in case things go awry.  I have plenty of passive income and would have no trouble showing the sources, providing statements, notarized account letters from my bank(s), etc or whatever somebody might want for proving the income.  However the US embassy has now decided to not care and not issue an income letter under any circumstances.   A gross disservice to US citizen tax payers whose monies pay for these embassies and their staffs and services.   Note that proving income that is generated inside tax deferred or tax free accounts such as Traditional IRA accounts or ROTH IRA accounts would be confusing to many people because those monies do NOT show up on 1040 tax forms.  The only time IRA monies show up anywhere to the government is if you make withdrawals or conversions.  So while I can show the income/dividends paid into those IRA accounts, and I can show the estimated future income (Etrade has a fine and simple income estimator that simply basis projected next month or next year "income" on the equities you hold and their most recent dividend payout), that does not mean I took any income out of those IRAs. 

 

  I mention that because some of the schemes I have seen suggested showing 1040 tax forms.  While those may show wages, salaries, tips, and other income sources, they would not show income earned inside of IRA accounts unless those monies were as I said before, transferred out or converted.

 

  So properly showing income is a bit more complex than one might think. And younger staff workers that have never rolled over IRAs, or converted IRAs, or made withdrawals from IRAs or in some liklihood only have the US Government TSP thing, may have zero understanding of things.  So some work would have to be done on establishing an agreed upon Income verification method since there are lots and lots of income methods.  That is why I suggested the Embassies hire an approved financial service firm where expats could submit their documentation and explanation, and then some people with some actual financial background could properly assess things, make a report to embassy officials who then would issue an appropriate income letter.  Explain this process to the Thais and all could go very smoothly.

[GSec]

The Greek Embassy will never verify income from a different country.

 

[Matzzon]

5 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

I have plenty of real money.  I am a single millionaire.  But I did not get there by just blindly taking money from very safe places into somewhat unsafe places.   I just have no intention nor desire to un invest it from my dividend and interest equities those monies are lying in my USA investments.  And I don't feel like putting 800k baht  or 26,000 USD into a country that has poor checks and balances and laws that do not favor foreigners in case things go awry.

Ok, you have money, but you do not wish to comply with immigration rules in the country you choose to reside in. Yeah, what can I say. Though luck! Then you can´t stay. Oh, unless using an agent of course, which will be the next thing they will clamp down on. Good luck with your millions and a lot of paper showing them. ???? 

[gk10002000]

27 minutes ago, Matzzon said:

Ok, you have money, but you do not wish to comply with immigration rules in the country you choose to reside in. Yeah, what can I say. Though luck! Then you can´t stay. Oh, unless using an agent of course, which will be the next thing they will clamp down on. Good luck with your millions and a lot of paper showing them. ???? 

Jesus you people  reason in non-sequitur ways.  You were the one rambling on about people showing real money or babbling that people could not declare the right amount.   It is the US embassies fault for not validating claims in some way.  More importantly, show me the evidence that indicates that x number of people made false declarations and were shown to NOT have the stated incomes.  I have not read of any cases where those were documented or proven.

Edited October 3, 2019 by gk10002000

[dimitriv]

22 hours ago, soalbundy said:

They can look at the US documents. I get a German pension (I worked as a British citizen in Germany for 40 years) the German embassy certifies my German pension and my small British pension at the same time. They needed the original British letter informing me of my pension, they can apparently tell if the document is genuine because the first time I did this I brought a copy instead of the original and that was refused, I had to go all the way back to Surin to get the original.

 

If you read what you wrote here...  You get different kinds of income from different countries. And you expect that embassies understand all different kinds of documents declaring all the different types of income?   They must be able to recognize documents from many different countries, and also guarantee that they are genuine ?

 

>> They needed the original British letter informing me of my pension, they can apparently tell if the document is genuine because the first time I did this I brought a copy instead of the original and that was refused

 

You brought a copy. Usually it is easy to see that something is a copy. Next time you brought the original which was accepted. And based on that you make the conclusion that the embassy can say that the original you brought wasn't fake ?

 

 

 

[StevieAus]

On 9/30/2019 at 3:01 PM, sirineou said:

Absolutely right!!! 

I can check by Social Security account in one second on line, why cant the embassy do this with my consent???

Same with my prudential annuity checked on line in seconds.. 

  I can order a certified tax return record online, good enough for a bank to lend me thousands of dollars, but the US government  can't   check their own records??? 

A fee for the service should compensate for costs  and even provide a profit, and a simple waiver should alleviate any privacy concerns.

IMO the whole situation is ridiculous. 

  

I think what you have stated confirms that the problem lies not with the various Embassies but with Thai Immigration.

Surely If you have a document issued by an American Government Department stating that you receive x amount as a pension that should be enough.

Why does it need another level of Government to confirm that the information in that document is correct?

As Mazzon stated in his post the real problem is that some expats were making false declarations as to income without being required to provide any proof.

I don’t think Thai Immigration are as stupid as some people believe.

[StevieAus]

2 hours ago, gk10002000 said:

Jesus you people  reason in non-sequitur ways.  You were the one rambling on about people showing real money or babbling that people could not declare the right amount.   It is the US embassies fault for not validating claims in some way.  More importantly, show me the evidence that indicates that x number of people made false declarations and were shown to NOT have the stated incomes.  I have not read of any cases where those were documented or proven.

I know of one American and one Australia who used to make false claims I would imagine there would be more in the whole of Thailand, not everybody receives big pensions or income.