Brexit deal can be done by October 31, Ireland says after 'positive' Johnson meeting

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, stephenterry said:

In case you don't realise, their constituents have more important domestic issues that they're concerned about, like loss of jobs, medical care, pension entitlements, benefits, and government austerity programmes, not some ideological folly which hasn't materially affected them at all - apart from now having to pay for it in the future.   

Most Brexit voters were voting for change.

Voting remain, is a vote to keep things as they are.

[NanLaew]

17 hours ago, SheungWan said:

What counts is the voting in Parliament. Hard Brexiteer moaning on the sidelines notwithstanding.

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Why has every common and garden Brexiteer suddenly morphed into the Hard Brexiteer?

 

In the eyes of the besieged, flustered and increasingly irrelevant Remainer camp I mean.

 

Running out of straws are we?

[NanLaew]

17 hours ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

One problem is SNP may worry that remaining may stymie any indyref2 - Corbyn would probably have to offer that to get them onboard.

So the leading totally irrelevant party will need to get the support of another?

 

Oh sorry, I forgot the Lib Dems who are all about a second referendum anyway but they've been mostly irrelevant for decades.

[stephenterry]

5 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Most Brexit voters were voting for change.

Voting remain, is a vote to keep things as they are.

Quite correct. IMO, English, in particular, are more likely to support a change in the status quo, especially as the UK tory government is prone to support the well-off - their main party faithful - at the expense of the working class, who suffered from the austerity programme.  Hence the difference between them and Labour - the affluent S.E. as opposed to the northern constituencies.

 

Whether that's got anything to do with the price of tea in China is debatable.

[NanLaew]

39 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Well you are consistent, analyse a small piece of text and use it as a distraction. Everything else becomes insignificant.

Really surprised you didn't make out the Nobel Peace Prize was a mistake, after all according to the brexiteer the EU is evil personified.

 

Well it wasn't me that introduced a link to a dated BBC article that bolstered the then government's vacillation on honoring the original people's vote.

 

Since you mentioned it (and I didn't), the Nobel Peace Prize is not what it used to be. More recently it's become a much devalued and abused political tool. It went rapidly downhill after they gave the gong to the UN in 2001. Even Al Gore got one.

[NanLaew]

52 minutes ago, sandyf said:

Exactly. This is why a GE can never be used as the answer to the brexit question, would only create an even more contentious result.

Whereas this 'People's Vote' would handily end all debate?

 

I see.

[stephenterry]

15 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Whereas this 'People's Vote' would handily end all debate?

 

I see.

Had it been a landslide result, probably. 

[stephenterry]

Trouble is, the 'first past the post' General Election voting system - as opposed to proportional representation - is clearly undemocratic, in that there is little balancing of differing viewpoints. 

 

The issue with brexit is exactly the same - it's undemocratic to appease a minority whether they're leavers or remainers. However the UK government fell foul over this conflict, and in hindsight should have stated that only a heavy majority for either result would be an acceptable outcome. 

 

That doesn't mean that they should ignore a significant minority, but act accordingly to address and resolve the issues arising. In this instance, the perceived deficiencies and structure of the EU.

 

That's practical ideology in play.  

[SheungWan]

Why has every common and garden Brexiteer suddenly morphed into the Hard Brexiteer?
 
In the eyes of the besieged, flustered and increasingly irrelevant Remainer camp I mean.
 
Running out of straws are we?

Hard Brexiteers would certainly like all supporters/voters of Brexit to be considered Hard Brexiteers. In fact HBrexiteers consistently lie that referendum Leavers voted for no-deal, which of course they didn't. The current negotiations show that there are broadly three positions, as there have been throughout: Remain, Soft Brexit, Hard Brexit.

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[SheungWan]

Well it wasn't me that introduced a link to a dated BBC article that bolstered the then government's vacillation on honoring the original people's vote.
 
Since you mentioned it (and I didn't), the Nobel Peace Prize is not what it used to be. More recently it's become a much devalued and abused political tool. It went rapidly downhill after they gave the gong to the UN in 2001. Even Al Gore got one.

The referendum vote did not specify no-deal Brexit, so the suggestion that the government was not honouring no-deal Brexit complete and utter nonsense.

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[NanLaew]

4 hours ago, stephenterry said:

...and in hindsight should have stated that only a heavy majority for either result would be an acceptable outcome.

And be forever damned for rigging a referendum, just like Jim Callaghan's government did with the first Scottish independence referendum in 1979. Ruled null and void on voter turnout; a rule that wasn't mentioned when they threw this sop to the Scots. Labour's guilt (and a resurgent SNP) was the reason Tony Blair had the 1997 Scottish independence referendum front-and-center of his manifesto.

[NanLaew]

3 hours ago, SheungWan said:

Hard Brexiteers would certainly like all supporters/voters of Brexit to be considered Hard Brexiteers. In fact HBrexiteers consistently lie that referendum Leavers voted for no-deal, which of course they didn't. The current negotiations show that there are broadly three positions, as there have been throughout: Remain, Soft Brexit, Hard Brexit.

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You are a Remainer, no? How can you possibly comprehend the subtle nuance between the regular Leave voter and this Remainer creation called the Hard Brexiteer.

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, SheungWan said:

The referendum vote did not specify no-deal Brexit, so the suggestion that the government was not honouring no-deal Brexit complete and utter nonsense.

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Correct. There was no fine print on the referendum paper that inferred only a good-deal Brexit was acceptable either. It was simply either Leave or Stay. Stay lost.

[vinny41]

4 hours ago, stephenterry said:

Trouble is, the 'first past the post' General Election voting system - as opposed to proportional representation - is clearly undemocratic, in that there is little balancing of differing viewpoints. 

 

The issue with brexit is exactly the same - it's undemocratic to appease a minority whether they're leavers or remainers. However the UK government fell foul over this conflict, and in hindsight should have stated that only a heavy majority for either result would be an acceptable outcome. 

 

That doesn't mean that they should ignore a significant minority, but act accordingly to address and resolve the issues arising. In this instance, the perceived deficiencies and structure of the EU.

 

That's practical ideology in play.  

Tony Blair didn't have an issue in 1997

Tony Blair: I steamrollered devolution for Wales

but the Yes campaign victory in Wales was much closer - a majority of just under 7,000 (0.6%) of more than a million votes cast.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-41199659

[tebee]

6 minutes ago, NanLaew said:

Correct. There was no fine print on the referendum paper that inferred only a good-deal Brexit was acceptable either. It was simply either Leave or Stay. Stay lost.

So your family votes to go to the zoo tomorrow. Tomorrow comes, you all drive to the zoo. But when you get to the Zoo, you find the admision is much more expensive than you thought, it's raining heavily  and the sewers have overflowed all over the place and to cap it all the the zoo's one animal is a just a dog - it's a <deleted>zhu !

 

Do you still pay your money and go in because that's what you voted for ?   

[NanLaew]

15 minutes ago, tebee said:

So your family votes to go to the zoo tomorrow. Tomorrow comes, you all drive to the zoo. But when you get to the Zoo, you find the admision is much more expensive than you thought, it's raining heavily  and the sewers have overflowed all over the place and to cap it all the the zoo's one animal is a just a dog - it's a <deleted>zhu !

 

Do you still pay your money and go in because that's what you voted for ?   

Glib analogies aside, one does what is right, however odious it may be or onerous sit will surely become. Unless you name's Rothschild or Branson, life aint meant to be easy.

 

PS. Try shih-tzu the next time you attempt humor. Most will still get it.

[tebee]

but surely the "right thing" is defined by the knowledge of what is right we have now - not some previous decision we took some years ago with less insight? 

 

I'd hate to be forced to do these days, what I thought was right as a teenager.  

[SheungWan]

Correct. There was no fine print on the referendum paper that inferred only a good-deal Brexit was acceptable either. It was simply either Leave or Stay. Stay lost.

Terms of leaving were not included. That was and is the responsibility of Parliament.

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[SheungWan]

You are a Remainer, no? How can you possibly comprehend the subtle nuance between the regular Leave voter and this Remainer creation called the Hard Brexiteer.

If there is one thing Hard Brexiteers don't do, is the word subtle.

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[Amalia0101]

5 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

If there is one thing Hard Brexiteers don't do, is the word subtle.

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Brexiters think they can bully the softer behaving reminders around. 

 

That has always been the modus operandi. Lessons learned from Kreml. 

 

It's time to go against those tactics. 

[NanLaew]

1 hour ago, Amalia0101 said:

It's time to go against those tactics.

Leaving it all a bit late, no?

[SheungWan]

Leaving it all a bit late, no?

Not until the Fat Lady sings.

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[Amalia0101]

4 minutes ago, SheungWan said:

Not until the Fat Lady sings.

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Yes, that's the point. The brexiteers have been saying for moths that the fat lady has already song, but she hasn't. 

 

The game is still on and I hope the ones who actually wish Brexit to become just a stupid nightmare, don't stop fighting. You are my heroes. 

[sanemax]

2 hours ago, Amalia0101 said:

Brexiters think they can bully the softer behaving reminders around. 

 

That has always been the modus operandi. Lessons learned from Kreml. 

 

It's time to go against those tactics. 

Thats is a rather typical lefty behaviour .

Accuse others of being violent and bullys and then violently attack and bully them......because *Thats what they do* (even though they dont do that)

[Slip]

1 minute ago, sanemax said:

Thats is a rather typical lefty behaviour .

Accuse others of being violent and bullys and then violently attack and bully them......because *Thats what they do* (even though they dont do that)

That is not what the poster said or did.  Did you mean 'accuse someone of something then make a load of <deleted> up and try to hang it on them.'  Oh no, that is what you just did.

[sanemax]

1 minute ago, Slip said:

That is not what the poster said or did.  Did you mean 'accuse someone of something then make a load of <deleted> up and try to hang it on them.'  Oh no, that is what you just did.

Didnt he state that its time to start bullying Brexiteers?

 

[Slip]

2 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Didnt he state that its time to start bullying Brexiteers?

 

No he/she didn't.  Are you going to go for the black is white thing again?

[sanemax]

8 minutes ago, Slip said:

No he/she didn't.  Are you going to go for the black is white thing again?

Thats the way that I understood " Going against these tactics" to mean .

Stop being bullied and become the bully in retaliation 

[Slip]

10 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Thats the way that I understood " Going against these tactics" to mean .

Stop being bullied and become the bully in retaliation 

That is definitely your own bias showing through.  To 'go against a tactic' does not by any means to copy it and try to push it back on the other party, as of course you realise if you are honest.  It just suits your own argumentative agenda, the same as your pedantry when that works.  I tip my hat to you, but I am not convinced.

 

[edit: argumentative as in 'of your argument' as opposed to 'of your attitude'].

[Amalia0101]

15 minutes ago, sanemax said:

Didnt he state that its time to start bullying Brexiteers?

 

You have always behaved bullying behavior towards everybody else, who are not Brexiteers. I do question you, why you have always been so much against towards people, who are not supporting your way of life?

 

Why you have always been so much against people, who are pro EU? 

I am European person. Why you are so much against me as European person? I have absolutely nothing against you as UK person. So why do you hate me so much? I really want to understand your hatred towards me. Why do you hate me so much?