Brexit on a knife edge as PM Johnson stakes all on 'Super Saturday' vote

[sandyf]

23 minutes ago, el torro said:

"integrity" would be MPs respecting the vote of their constituents ....

Do not distort the integrity of the point being addressed.

 

"Surely if a PM can't do what parliament has asked him to do, he should resign?"

 

[DannyCarlton]

5 minutes ago, el torro said:

 

It's impossible to know the number of Labour voters that voted 'remain'.

 

But this has nothing to do with my point.

 

i.e. MPs respecting the vote of their constituents.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted

 

"The vote on Britain's membership of the European Union cut across party lines, with significant division within Britain's main political parties. Conservatives voted to Leave, 61% to 39%. Labour voters (65%) and Liberal Democrats (68%) largely voted for Remain"

 

So Labour should campaign for remain. Someone should tell Corbyn that.

[BritManToo]

Was expecting the pound to drop when the markets opened, but it hasn't.

I have no idea what's going on.

[DannyCarlton]

36 minutes ago, el torro said:

This needs a separate thread, as I certainly blame a large part of the NHS failure on the decision to insert a large number of admin. staff( and extremely well paid managers/top staff) into the NHS.....

I posted a long explanation of how this wasn't the case. Unfortunately it was deleted. So, yes, needs another thread.

[yodsak]

 

From Pound Sterling Live

 

[DannyCarlton]

6 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

Was expecting the pound to drop when the markets opened, but it hasn't.

I have no idea what's going on.

The pound falls on the increased likleyhood of Brexit and in particular a no deal brexit. It rises when that likelyhood decreases.

 

Today, expect Johnson to get a further caning from Bercow. In the next couple of days expect the EU to acceed to Johnson's request for an extension. All which makes Brexit and in particular a no deal Brexit less likely.

 

 

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

Maybe you should read, mark and understand my post before replying.

You included the "people's vote" term, which has only been associated with another referendum, not a GE.

Edited October 21, 2019 by nauseus

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, DannyCarlton said:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted

 

"The vote on Britain's membership of the European Union cut across party lines, with significant division within Britain's main political parties. Conservatives voted to Leave, 61% to 39%. Labour voters (65%) and Liberal Democrats (68%) largely voted for Remain"

 

So Labour should campaign for remain. Someone should tell Corbyn that.

He wants to retain the CU and SM. That is remain.

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Right, overturn the will of the electorate. That’s democracy Brexiteer style. 

Will of the electorate? Nonsense. Democracy, "Brexiteer style", has and is already been confounded to the point of stalemate so what's your grumble? This parliament is useless and unfit for purpose.  

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

Do not thank me, you obviously missed the point in it being the signature of @nauseum, who is quite happy to keep having general elections until he gets the parliament he wants.

Now you miss my point that a new parliament is required to break the impasse. That might turn out to be not what the one I want but the one you want. I can accept that possibility. Can you?  

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, el torro said:

That will give the EU the excuse (for which they are desperately looking) to give another extension.

They don't need an excuse. The EU has been facilitating a UK reversal/remain since the referendum.

 

Extend and GE -  it's the best way now. If the winners of the GE want another referendum then that's their call.

[yodsak]

Odds on December election.

 

Boris ahead in the polls and with the bookies. Jez is not doing too well.  

 

[DannyCarlton]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

Now you miss my point that a new parliament is required to break the impasse. That might turn out to be not what the one I want but the one you want. I can accept that possibility. Can you?  

No, you completely miss the point (deliberately). A GE is never fought on a single issue. After a GE we could resolve Brexit in weeks and then we are left with a government for the next 5 years who's policies we completely disagree with. Madness. Better to have a binding referendum on a single issue leave on the deal or remain, which would break the impasse as soon as the result were announced, and then have a GE, fought on traditional policies. Best of both worlds.

 

That might turn out to be not the result I want but the one you want. I can accept that possibility. Can you?  Somehow I doubt it.

[welovesundaysatspace]

3 hours ago, nauseus said:

This parliament is useless and unfit for purpose.  

That’s not up to you to decide. The electorate went to the ballot box to give a mandate to MPs to represent them for a term of 5 years, not until it suits some Brexiteers. The wish of the electorate is to be respected. Unlike the referendum, a General election is legally binding and not just an opinion poll. 

[yodsak]

 

[nauseus]

1 hour ago, DannyCarlton said:

No, you completely miss the point (deliberately). A GE is never fought on a single issue. After a GE we could resolve Brexit in weeks and then we are left with a government for the next 5 years who's policies we completely disagree with. Madness. Better to have a binding referendum on a single issue leave on the deal or remain, which would break the impasse as soon as the result were announced, and then have a GE, fought on traditional policies. Best of both worlds.

 

That might turn out to be not the result I want but the one you want. I can accept that possibility. Can you?  Somehow I doubt it.

 

You can imagine what you like but I have not deliberately missed anything. This single and most important issue is holding back all other issues that parliament needs to get on and deal with. Parliament is no longer functioning as it should be, because of this, and a general election is needed. If this is a first GE for this good reason, then so what? You say that a GE would resolve Brexit (unblocking the parliamentary bog) so good! I don't care if the fixed term act is abolished; in fact I think that they should abolish it.

 

Any subsequent referendum would need to mimic the first one, with the same format and rules. Changing and omitting choices will not be acceptable to most leave voters - this would be the same as discounting the 2016 referendum completely - not on. There are some who might even prefer a clean break after seeing all this BS over the last 4 years. Remainers calling for another referendum as a "people's vote" just infuriates the majority from the last one even more!

 

 

Edited October 21, 2019 by nauseus

[nauseus]

10 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

That’s not up to you to decide. The electorate went to the ballot box to give a mandate to MPs to represent them for a term of 5 years, not until it suits some Brexiteers. The wish of the electorate is to be respected. Unlike the referendum, a General election is legally binding and not just an opinion poll. 

Pot calling again. Self-righteous remainers, who lost, now call the referendum with the biggest vote in UK history an "opinion poll"! Then they try and get it overturned because it suits them. What a shower! 

 

I have decided that this is my opinion and the decision to form this opinion was made entirely by me, myself and Irene. Maybe we should have a referendum on whether to have a GE? But I suppose that would be ignored too.   

[welovesundaysatspace]

5 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Pot calling again. Self-righteous remainers, who lost, now call the referendum with the biggest vote in UK history an "opinion poll"! 

It doesn’t matter how you call it. The law is clear on that. 
 

5 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Then they try and get it overturned because it suits them. What a shower! 

How can you overturn something if it’s legally binding? 

[Denim]

5 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

It doesn’t matter how you call it. The law is clear on that. 
 

How can you overturn something if it’s legally binding? 

 

Change the law and post date it.

 

[Chomper Higgot]

8 minutes ago, Denim said:

 

Change the law and post date it.

 

That’s not how changes to the law work.

 

 

[Denim]

12 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

That’s not how changes to the law work.

 

 

 

Rhetorical question , rhetorical answer.

 

Happens in Thailand though.

[Bluespunk]

Yet another soft splat hits the fan

 

Brexit: MPs' vote on deal ruled out by Speaker John Bercow https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50128740

[tebee]

32 minutes ago, Denim said:

 

Change the law and post date it.

 

Wouldn't you have to backdate it ?

[Denim]

8 hours ago, tebee said:

Wouldn't you have to backdate it ?

Oooops ! Yep, my bad. So excited I got ahead of myself.

[yodsak]

Boris stakes all on 'Titanic Tuesday' vote.     9 days to go.

[DannyCarlton]

45 minutes ago, yodsak said:

Boris stakes all on 'Titanic Tuesday' vote.     9 days to go.

Due to Kinnock, son of Kinnock's treacherous amendment to the Benn act, which only passed because the Tory tellers deliberately failed to count the "NO" votes, technically, it's not possible to tag an amendment to have a 2nd referendum onto the Withdrawal Act, as pionted out by the (not very) Honourable Member for Don Valley, Caroline Flint, in parliament yesterday.

 

Expect Bercow to be in the thick of it again.

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2019 by DannyCarlton

[yodsak]

WAB passes easily.    329 / 299.    No mean achievement. 19 labour rebels.

 

As expected the timetable gets rejected 322 /308. Boris pauses the bill.  Now in limbo.  

[ He said he would pull it ].   DUP once again are the difference between the government winning and losing  ....

 

No Brexit on 31 Oct.     EU will delay up to 31 Jan.  

.

[Airbagwill]

On 10/21/2019 at 9:48 PM, nauseus said:

 

You can imagine what you like but I have not deliberately missed anything. This single and most important issue is holding back all other issues that parliament needs to get on and deal with. Parliament is no longer functioning as it should be, because of this, and a general election is needed. If this is a first GE for this good reason, then so what? You say that a GE would resolve Brexit (unblocking the parliamentary bog) so good! I don't care if the fixed term act is abolished; in fact I think that they should abolish it.

 

Any subsequent referendum would need to mimic the first one, with the same format and rules. Changing and omitting choices will not be acceptable to most leave voters - this would be the same as discounting the 2016 referendum completely - not on. There are some who might even prefer a clean break after seeing all this BS over the last 4 years. Remainers calling for another referendum as a "people's vote" just infuriates the majority from the last one even more!

 

 

Unfortunately the right wing's use of the referendum has undermined parliament's sovereignty.

The British constitution is under pressure like possibly never before, all brought about by an unnecessary and corrupted referendum.

Brexiteers reap what they sew and have no one else to blame.

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, Airbagwill said:

Unfortunately the right wing's use of the referendum has undermined parliament's sovereignty.

The British constitution is under pressure like possibly never before, all brought about by an unnecessary and corrupted referendum.

Brexiteers reap what they sew and have no one else to blame.

The referendum was enabled by the European Union Referendum Act, 2015, which was passed by our sovereign parliament.

 

Withdrawal was approved by the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017, passed by our sovereign parliament.

 

The referendum result was for leave, both the high turnout and result shows that a vote was desired, well overdue and entirely necessary. Leavers still want to leave: after more than 3 years they have a democratic right to blame any party that attempts to obstruct this from happening. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

9 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The referendum was enabled by the European Union Referendum Act, 2015, which was passed by our sovereign parliament.

 

Withdrawal was approved by the European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Act 2017, passed by our sovereign parliament.

You are right that it’s up to the sovereign parliament to decide. The problem is that Brexiteers think it’s up to them and their corrupted opinion poll to decide.