O/A visa and insurance experience today

[Sheryl]

16 minutes ago, Exploring Thailand said:

That's the way I saw it. The fact that the order contains a link to the TGIA website is unfortunate in that everyone naturally takes anything on that website to be endorsed by the government, whereas I think the intention was probably just that the website would contain the list of officially approved insurers. 

 

I did see a comment somewhere by a Thai official that it would be impossible for them to check, and keep to track of,  every overseas policy, which is understandable. If the TGIA could become a portal whereby any insurance company could submit a policy for approval for use with Thai visas, then a lot of our current problems would disappear. How likely that is to come about is another matter.

Since the website is run by a consortiun of local companies they have zero incentive to ever do this.

 

Government needs to take back the reins. There is not a viable alternative.

 

They could easily get a list of companies with existing direct payment contracts with Thai hospitals. 

 

They could  also get company and policy names from local  brokers.

 

And Embassies can supply details of government schrmes with worldwide cover e.g. Tricare.

 

From this a list of approved foreign coverage could be developed. IOs then need only check that a policy is on the list.

 

 

 

[Exploring Thailand]

5 minutes ago, Sheryl said:

Since the website is run by a consortiun of local companies they have zero incentive to ever do this.

 

Government needs to take back the reins. There is not a viable alternative.

 

They could easily get a list of ompanies with existing direct payment contracts with Thai hospitals. 

 

They could  also get company and policy names from lical  brokers.

 

And Embassies can supply details of government schrmes with worldwide cover e.g. Tricare.

 

From this a list of approved foreign covetage could be developed. IOs then need only check that a polucy is on the list.

Agreed that outsourcing it to the Thai Insurance industry was a terrible idea, but I'm not sure how likely they are to backtrack now that they've done it. I think best and fairest way to do would have been to have the consulates annotate passports for newly issued visas,  per the police order.  That would release the IOs from checking anything other than the passport. But if they really do intend to apply it across all OA visas, past and present, then that's not going to work.

 

Another way to take the pressure off (and decision-making away from) IOs would be to have a centralized database as outlined in loveThailandElite's post earlier in the thread.

 

Either way, there's not much we can do about it, other than urging our consulates, and the insurance companies themselves, to make the Thai authorities aware of our concerns. The fact that the current system is going to cause so many problems for so many people hopefully means that it must be amended and improved in some way.

[Peter Denis]

@Sheryl

Wanted to let you know, that you deserve a lot more than just a THANK YOU.

You are doing a wonderful job of providing correct, understandable and sensible responses to all the issues surrounding this health-insurance debacle.

And I understand you are not even in Thailand, while answering all these cries for help and info.

Deepest respect!

[Ellis]

Another report from yesterday:

 

[Rdrokit]

First, I am sorry if this was covered in prior pages but I am not going to read 43 pages of posts. This is a document from the US Embassy about the insurance requirement. There is a link to a Thai document for visa holders who have non Thai insurance that offers coverage while they are in Thailand. here is the link, http://longstay.tgia.org/document/overseas_insurance_certificate.pdf

 

New Health Insurance Requirement for Long-Stay Visa Applicants (November 8, 2019)

Location:  Thailand

Event:  As of October 31, 2019, Thailand requires all long-stay (O-A and O-X) visa applicants to carry health insurance.  Per Royal Thai Police Order Number 548/2562 dated September 27, 2019, foreign nationals who have been granted a nonimmigrant O-A or O-X visa must purchase health insurance which covers their length of stay in the Kingdom of Thailand.  The coverage must be no less than 400,000 Thai Baht per policy year for inpatient care and not less than 40,000 Thai Baht per policy year for outpatient services. 

U.S. citizens can present proof of existing insurance (U.S.-based or otherwise) that covers them in Thailand or they can purchase an insurance policy via the Thai General Insurance Association’s website at http://longstay.tgia.org. 

U.S. citizens will need to download the Overseas Insurance Certificate and have it completed, signed, and stamped by their insurance company if using a non-Thai insurance policy to qualify.

Actions to Take:

·        Visit the Royal Thai Embassy website to review visa requirements.

·        Learn more about Thai health insurance policy options.

·        Learn more about Insurance Providers for Overseas Coverage.

 

U.S. Embassy Bangkok, Thailand

American Citizens Services

+66 2 205 4049

+66 2 205 4000 (after hours)

[email protected]

State Department - Consular Affairs

+1 888 407 4747 or +1 202 501 4444

[ubonjoe]

11 minutes ago, Rdrokit said:

First, I am sorry if this was covered in prior pages but I am not going to read 43 pages of posts.

Posted as a topic yesterday.

 

[nectar]

If I could throw in my two-cents worth:

The Retirement Visa extension guidance page at the Immigration Bureau on https://www.immigration.go.th/content/service_22 makes no mention at all of a requirement for a medical insurance certificate.

 

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by nectar
spelling error

[Scotcm]

Arrived at Suvannabhumi yesterday on OA visa issued by London Embassy on 20th October. Stamped in for year in a few minutes. No questions about health insurance.

[Exploring Thailand]

10 minutes ago, Scotcm said:

Arrived at Suvannabhumi yesterday on OA visa issued by London Embassy on 20th October. Stamped in for year in a few minutes. No questions about health insurance.

Have you written about this on Facebook?  There have been a couple of posts on here similar to yours copied from Facebook. I'm just wondering if this is a duplicate or a new report.

[Scotcm]

12 minutes ago, Exploring Thailand said:

Have you written about this on Facebook?  There have been a couple of posts on here similar to yours copied from Facebook. I'm just wondering if this is a duplicate or a new report.

Not posted on Facebook. This is a new post not a duplicate.

[Mango Bob]

 Maybe they are getting it right at the airport now get the immigrations officers throughout the country to do it right.

 

[Thaidream]

3 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Since the website is run by a consortiun of local companies they have zero incentive to ever do this.

 

Government needs to take back the reins. There is not a viable alternative.

 

They could easily get a list of companies with existing direct payment contracts with Thai hospitals. 

 

They could  also get company and policy names from local  brokers.

 

And Embassies can supply details of government schrmes with worldwide cover e.g. Tricare.

 

From this a list of approved foreign coverage could be developed. IOs then need only check that a policy is on the list

Well said and on the mark.

 

I would also add that as part of a review on this issue - the Government  should seriously consider allowing anyone on a long stay entry or extension to buy into the Thai Social Security  system (Medical Only).  The rate paid by anyone in this system is 457 Baht per month which allows use of Thai Government Hospitals and any private Hospital that  accepts the coverage. As part of this- a co-pay  could be attached to stop any frivalous use of the system.

 

As you know none  of the policies on the current long stay list even address the issue of  people aged 75 and up who cannot obtain insurance .  The Malaysian retirement scheme allows a medical insurance waiver for anyone who cannot be insured.  Thailand needs to do the same or force the insurance industry to provide coverage/

 

In asdition to the acceptance of  foreign insurance- the current Thai companies  on the list need to be expanded and made to use the entire country as the insuranc epool not an age group of  50-100. The pool needs to be 1-100.  This lowers the cost and spreads the risk throughout the pool numbers.

 

IMO no insuarce commission in any Western Nation would allow such a system as Thailand has mandated to even begin . 

 

I am hoping that they suspend the enforcement of this plan or at the least grandfather everyone on an O-A issued prior to 31 October 2019 as well as for extensions . 

[KeeTua]

17 minutes ago, Mango Bob said:

 Maybe they are getting it right at the airport now get the immigrations officers throughout the country to do it right.

Or maybe they decided to introduce a grace period once they realized all the confusion at the airport and the need to issue 30 days entry to people instead of 1 year. I doubt this is a permanent change in policy.

 

Not likely but maybe influence from US embassy? As Sheryl pointed out earlier in a message from the embassy they said the way the new policy was worded left some wiggle room, I think that was the phrase.

 

Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.

[kingofthemountain]

11 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

Well said and on the mark.

 

I would also add that as part of a review on this issue - the Government  should seriously consider allowing anyone on a long stay entry or extension to buy into the Thai Social Security  system (Medical Only).  The rate paid by anyone in this system is 457 Baht per month which allows use of Thai Government Hospitals and any private Hospital that  accepts the coverage. As part of this- a co-pay  could be attached to stop any frivalous use of the system.

 

As you know none  of the policies on the current long stay list even address the issue of  people aged 75 and up who cannot obtain insurance .  The Malaysian retirement scheme allows a medical insurance waiver for anyone who cannot be insured.  Thailand needs to do the same or force the insurance industry to provide coverage/

 

In asdition to the acceptance of  foreign insurance- the current Thai companies  on the list need to be expanded and made to use the entire country as the insuranc epool not an age group of  50-100. The pool needs to be 1-100.  This lowers the cost and spreads the risk throughout the pool numbers.

 

IMO no insuarce commission in any Western Nation would allow such a system as Thailand has mandated to even begin . 

 

I am hoping that they suspend the enforcement of this plan or at the least grandfather everyone on an O-A issued prior to 31 October 2019 as well as for extensions . 

I totaly agree with you BUT

is not going to happen probably because the REAL plan is

 

1\ Give the opportunity to few local insurance companies 

(With some croonies and families in the director board)

to do a bunch of free money on the farang's shoulders

 

2\ On a more long term vision to get ride of most of the

old farangs and make the place free for the newcommers chineses and indians.

Edited November 9, 2019 by kingofthemountain

[Sheryl]

59 minutes ago, Scotcm said:

Arrived at Suvannabhumi yesterday on OA visa issued by London Embassy on 20th October. Stamped in for year in a few minutes. No questions about health insurance.

What time did you arrive?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

7 hours ago, Sheryl said:

Bring the certificate. 

 

Now if your visa was issued after Oct 31 there is suppised to be a notation in it by tbe Embassy/Consulate which supposedly will suffice until the indicared  end date of the policy i.e the first year. No reports yet that I have seen of someone entering with this.

 

I think that's good, sound advice.

 

If I was caught up in this, regardless of whether I had a Consulate/Embassy notation on my O-A visa stamp, I certainly would bring:

 

--my regular insurance card that shows the coverage limits

--the O-A certification card/sheet issued by my Thai insurer or a copy of the signed Foreign Insurance Certificate in the event of a foreign policy.

--a copy of my actual insurance policy coverage summary of benefits sheets, that also lists the main cover amounts, whether in EN or in TH.

 

Not that all those things are necessarily required. But better to be safe rather than sorry until all the details and procedures of this get sorted out over time.

 

 

 

[Martyp]

14 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

In asdition to the acceptance of  foreign insurance- the current Thai companies  on the list need to be expanded and made to use the entire country as the insuranc epool not an age group of  50-100. The pool needs to be 1-100.  This lowers the cost and spreads the risk throughout the pool numbers.I

I would advise any current long stay expat to contact the insurance companies and ask what policies they have that meet the new insurance requirements. I have a Pacific Cross policy that does have a 1-100 risk pool.  More coverage. Less money or at least better value. You are not restricted to the low value policies on the tgia website. 
 

Whether you can still find an acceptable policy will depend on your age, nationality, particular needs. I used to have a very good US policy. Now I have a Thai policy that I am equally happy with. I’m not saying this will work for everyone but there are more options than many people believe.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

18 hours ago, brianj1964 said:

Can I presume the only time you would be asked to prove you have obtained insurance is at an international in coming flight or land crossing, it's not linked to your passport, TM 30, 90 day reporting, internal flights or departing from Thailand ? And the insurance certificate is the only evidence

 

As some of the prior posts indicated, there is supposed to be some kind of database created for all the people getting O-A certified insurance. And that almost certainly will include the passport numbers and such of each person being entered into the system.

 

As for checking O-A insurance status for those folks whom it's applicable to, as far as we know, it seems it would only be two main times:

--upon entering Thailand via an airport or land border, and

--going to Thai Immigration to seek a new annual extension of stay.

 

No indication O-A insurance status would have anything to do with 90-day reports, domestic travel inside Thailand, or departures from Thailand going abroad.

 

I think we have no idea yet whether Thai Immigration, at the airports, is going to primarily rely on paperwork documentation vs. the O-A insurance database, and even if that data will be available to the kiosk officers at the airports/borders. If I were guessing, I'd guess those folks primarily will be relying on either the Consulate/Embassy notations in passports and/or the O-A insurance certificates, either foreign or Thai domestic.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

9 hours ago, bangkokbanjo said:

So, I got my OA visa in NYC before October 31 and will be arriving in November.  Even though the law says I did not need insurance since I got the visa prior to the deadline, I purchased a policy outside of Thailand designed to meet the requirements from Regency.  I had the fill out the form for policies outside of Thailand from the website.   Should I anticipate any issues? 

 

Supposedly, the Foreign Insurance Certificate needs to be signed by officials from your foreign insurance company. It's not just something you can print out and complete yourself.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

9 hours ago, jacko45k said:

Yes I looked at Regency some time back, policies looked attractive. You may well want to ask whoever marketed this policy to you, but, they do not appear to be on this website.

 

Only the Thailand based insurers are listed on the TGIA O-A insurance website.

 

The foreign insurers, there's no O-A list of them. It's simply a matter of making sure the policy covers Thailand and has at least the required minimum OPD and IPD coverage amounts, and then having the foreign insurer sign and certify that on the form itself.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

8 hours ago, lampangguy said:

Strictly by chance, I already have an insurance policy through Navakij (one of the "approved" Thai companies). It is through Luma, but the policy is from Navakij. The policy is a 40 page document, all in english, and not easy to understand what the coverage is exactly. Will be interesting when I hand that to the IO office when the time comes. Will they just see the dates and the insurance company name and leave it at that. Or will they delve into the "guts" of the document (again, in english) to verify the coverage.....

 

Upon request, your Thai insurer should issue you a kind of O-A insurance certificate / card / or form certifying to Immigration that you have an O-A compliant insurance policy for whatever term it covers.

 

Of course, the policy itself has to meet the required IPD and OPD minimums under the O-A insurance order, and apparently, the specific policy you have has to be a type for which your insurer has specifically received O-A approval from the Thai government.

 

[Exploring Thailand]

30 minutes ago, Thaidream said:

In asdition to the acceptance of  foreign insurance- the current Thai companies  on the list need to be expanded and made to use the entire country as the insuranc epool not an age group of  50-100. The pool needs to be 1-100.  This lowers the cost and spreads the risk throughout the pool numbers. 

 

5 minutes ago, Martyp said:

I would advise any current long stay expat to contact the insurance companies and ask what policies they have that meet the new insurance requirements. I have a Pacific Cross policy that does have a 1-100 risk pool.  More coverage. Less money or at least better value. You are not restricted to the low value policies on the tgia website. 

 

I'm a rather dubious about the explanations the Thai insurance companies give for the high prices of the policies designed specifically for the OA visa. Firstly, I accept that pooling can affect the price, but I'm very surprised that it can affect the price to the extent that they are claiming it does.

 

Secondly, and most importantly, a broker told me that Thai insurance companies don't use pooling.  The way he explained it to me was this: there are are two distinct methods for calculating insurance premiums; they are history-based and book-based. History-based is where the insurer will adjust your policy according to your personal health history, thus if you make a claim, they will increase your premium the following year. Book-based is the pooling method we are talking about here. With book-based policies, your premium is unaffected if you make a claim.

 

All of the Thai-based insurance companies use history-based (whereas many foreign ones don't because it is illegal in many countries). They all have a clause stating that they can adjust your policy based upon your personal health history. If the we accept that the premiums are high because of pooling, then that means that the Thai companies' polices are book-based and history-based. A double-whammy! And I'd be surprised if it is legal. I guess it could be, but the broker I spoke to said that the two methods are mutually exclusive. The insurance company will use one or the other; not both.

 

I stand to be corrected on this, because, as a Brit, I'm not used to shopping around for insurance.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

8 hours ago, brianj1964 said:

Can I ask what may seem a silly question but here goes, when the insurance company ask the date of visa renewal, are they referring to the O-A visa or the actual stamp, obviously there's 2 different dates, clearly the dates would never be the same unless you got the visa and entered the same day

 

I'd imagine what they ought to be focusing on is your permitted to stay until date for someone who's already entered, or, for someone still outside of Thailand with a new O-A, probably the expiry date of the visa itself.

 

I think the general idea is, you want the one-year term of your insurance policy to match up with the start and end of your one-year permission to stay, whether it's by an O-A visa entry or by issuance of an annual extension of stay.

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[pookondee]

4 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Only the Thailand based insurers are listed on the TGIA O-A insurance website.

 

The foreign insurers, there's no O-A list of them. It's simply a matter of making sure the policy covers Thailand and has at least the required minimum OPD and IPD coverage amounts, and then having the foreign insurer sign and certify that on the form itself.

 

But how many would be willing to go through all that, not knowing for sure if it will still be rejected or not??

 

Im leaning on just boycotting the place altogether.

 

Folks, it just aint that great a place to be putting up with all this rot!!

[Martyp]

15 minutes ago, Exploring Thailand said:

 

 

I'm a rather dubious about the explanations the Thai insurance companies give for the high prices of the policies designed specifically for the OA visa. Firstly, I accept that pooling can affect the price, but I'm very surprised that it can affect the price to the extent that they are claiming it does.

 

Secondly, and most importantly, a broker told me that Thai insurance companies don't use pooling.  The way he explained it to me was this: there are are two distinct methods for calculating insurance premiums; they are history-based and book-based. History-based is where the insurer will adjust your policy according to your personal health history, thus if you make a claim, they will increase your premium the following year. Book-based is the pooling method we are talking about here. With book-based policies, your premium is unaffected if you make a claim.

 

All of the Thai-based insurance companies use history-based (whereas many foreign ones don't because it is illegal in many countries). They all have a clause stating that they can adjust your policy based upon your personal health history. If the we accept that the premiums are high because of pooling, then that means that the Thai companies' polices are book-based and history-based. A double-whammy! And I'd be surprised if it is legal. I guess it could be, but the broker I spoke to said that the two methods are mutually exclusive. The insurance company will use one or the other; not both.

 

I stand to be corrected on this, because, as a Brit, I'm not used to shopping around for insurance.

 

OK. Whatever. All anyone has to do is investigate what is out there and what the price is and if it is something better than what is on the tgia website. I agree they are low value policies (i.e. overpriced for what you get). I don't care to understand why. I'm just suggesting that the market is wider than that website and some people would benefit by doing some additional shopping around. 

 

I made a point of mentioning that I am an American because I realize that those or you from countries with universal health care will find shopping for private insurance to not be a good thing. I'm actually not that different. I had the same insurance company for 30 years through my employer. I hadn't shopped around before either.

 

Edited November 9, 2019 by Martyp

[pookondee]

8 minutes ago, Exploring Thailand said:

 

 

I'm a rather dubious about the explanations the Thai insurance companies give for the high prices of the policies designed specifically for the OA visa. Firstly, I accept that pooling can affect the price, but I'm very surprised that it can affect the price to the extent that they are claiming it does.

 

Secondly, and most importantly, a broker told me that Thai insurance companies don't use pooling.  The way he explained it to me was this: there are are two distinct methods for calculating insurance premiums; they are history-based and book-based. History-based is where the insurer will adjust your policy according to your personal health history, thus if you make a claim, they will increase your premium the following year. Book-based is the pooling method we are talking about here. With book-based policies, your premium is unaffected if you make a claim.

 

All of the Thai-based insurance companies use history-based (whereas many foreign ones don't because it is illegal in many countries). They all have a clause stating that they can adjust your policy based upon your personal health history. If the we accept that the premiums are high because of pooling, then that means that the Thai companies' polices are book-based and history-based. A double-whammy! And I'd be surprised if it is legal. I guess it could be, but the broker I spoke to said that the two methods are mutually exclusive. The insurance company will use one or the other; not both.

 

I stand to be corrected on this, because, as a Brit, I'm not used to shopping around for insurance.

I can accept that.

It would be one thing if the Thai policies actually covered you for +/- 1-2 million baht..

like they should...

 

The whole point is:

 why should i be forced to pay 45,000 baht a year,

for a policy max cover of 400k??

when i can EASILY afford to pay a 400k bill outright anyway!!  

 

People should be allowed to show higher funds in a bank and be excused from this farce. 

 

Likewise, why should people be forced into ditching a perfectly good policy they already have

(that actually DOES cover millions)

 just to get the crappy 400k Thai cover.

 

ridiculous

[LivinLOS]

9 minutes ago, Martyp said:

 

OK. Whatever. All anyone has to do is investigate what is out there and what the price is and if it is something better than what is on the tgia website. I agree they are low value policies (i.e. overpriced for what you get). I don't care to understand why. I'm just suggesting that the market is wider than that website and some people would benefit by doing some additional shopping around. 

 

I made a point of mentioning that I am an American because I realize that those or you from countries with universal health care will find shopping for private insurance to not be a good thing. I'm actually not that different. I had the same insurance company for 30 years through my employer. I hadn't shopped around before either.

 

However it isnt clear if using any policy other than the approved ones (even with a signed certificate) is acceptable after the first year. 

It is possible that the wording means you can get a non Thai policy when you obtain your visa, and then once you have come here they expect you to buy one of the ones which links to the database. This would also time with your first extension as it would have the 'admitted to the end date of' etc.. 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

5 hours ago, Exploring Thailand said:

I exchanged quite a few emails with a broker regarding Regency. They are not a Thai company, so don't appear on the website, meaning the policy will only be valid for one year. Apart from that, it looked like a good policy for anyone looking for the bare-minimum coverage. The premiums were low and there was no age-limit. Premiums increase by 7% per year after 70.

 

As a long-shot, I asked the agent whether Regency had looked into getting listed on the TGIA website, despite being a foreign company. Is there anything in the original cabinet resolution or subsequent police orders that mentions that the second-year on must be an insurance company registered in Thailand?  The TGIA site itself uses the phrase, "must buy insurance from authorized insurance companies in Thailand only". What is an authorized insurance company? Is it a company registered in Thailand or is it a company that appears on the TGIA website? Most likely it's a Thai-registered company, but I thought it at least worth a shot for a foreign company to look into the criteria for being listed on the TGIA website, especially a company like Regency who has gone to the trouble of create a policy called Thailand Long-Stay.

 

I think it's pretty safe to assume that only Thai insurance companies are going to end up being listed as O-A certified on the TGIA website.

 

For non-Thai companies, it's going to be the Foreign Insurance Certificate route.

 

As for the "first year" issue, I don't think we know yet whether than means the first year of the whole program only, or only for the first year of any particular O-A visa.... If the latter, that might open the door to a person doing annual new O-A applications with a new foreign insurance certificate each year, which obviously would require annual trips back home.

 

[lkv]

3 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

For non-Thai companies, it's going to be the Foreign Insurance Certificate route.

Only if you apply for a visa outside.

 

For extension, it must be Thai, and authorised (meaning participating in the tgia scheme).

 

It's pretty clear from the Police Order that no foreign insurance will be accepted for an extension of stay.

Edited November 9, 2019 by lkv

[Exploring Thailand]

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

I think it's pretty safe to assume that only Thai insurance companies are going to end up being listed as O-A certified on the TGIA website.

Yeah, I think you could well be right, but I don't see what is the legal basis for excluding foreign companies. It would be very interesting to know the process and criteria for being listed on the TGIA site. Who decides which companies appear on it, and how do they decide?