Scotland must be given new independence vote - Sturgeon

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, Airbagwill said:

1 hour ago, herfiehandbag said:

Why then, if you (the Scottish Nationalists) are so convinced that you have overwhelming support for independence, don't you do something about it? Hold your own referendum, and if the result confirms your claims, secede from the Union, at once. Lets see, if you held the referendum on the 21st of August you could be an independent nation by the 1st of September. Think about it, no more taxes to send to Westminster, no more money from Westminster, your own independent country, free to do whatever you like. I'm English of course, but like many ( I rather suspect most) English people it really wouldn't bother me one bit. Go for it, please.

 

It would be a bit of an upheaval for the UK, but so what, we would cope: the sun would still come up on the 2nd of September - except in Campbeltown of course - the sun never shines there!

Clearly no understanding of the legal issues surrounding Scittish independence..... you are proposing UDI? I would check that out before making comments like those above.

Airbagwill is correct, herfiehandbag, in that your proposal is essentially UDI.

 

I read a tweet the other day with some very limited details about UDI in other countries. I know next to no details other than this: 26 countries have attempted UDI. Only 13 have managed to get international recognition while the other 13 are economic basket cases. Of the 13 that have been recognised, 11 of them had to go through some sort of war or conflict on the road to recognition. So there is no appetite for UDI from most mainstream Nats. However a consultative referendum might be the way to go. That is not ideal either, but if a clear majority of voters vote Yes then the inevitable abstention of the Yoons will be less relevant. 

 

But I like your mature and sensible approach - there is no reason that it should bother anybody in England, Wales or NI. I believe that an independent Scotland would strengthen rather than weaken the fraternal bonds across our islands. 

[pineapple01]

Its the Woman who was in the Crankies years ago.

[Nigel Garvie]

1 hour ago, herfiehandbag said:

Why then, if you (the Scottish Nationalists) are so convinced that you have overwhelming support for independence, don't you do something about it? Hold your own referendum, and if the result confirms your claims, secede from the Union, at once. Lets see, if you held the referendum on the 21st of August you could be an independent nation by the 1st of September. Think about it, no more taxes to send to Westminster, no more money from Westminster, your own independent country, free to do whatever you like. I'm English of course, but like many ( I rather suspect most) English people it really wouldn't bother me one bit. Go for it, please.

 

It would be a bit of an upheaval for the UK, but so what, we would cope: the sun would still come up on the 2nd of September - except in Campbeltown of course - the sun never shines there!

I lived in Argyll for 5 years (Despite all the Campbell's which my Granny believed couldn't be trusted - long memory!) you are not entirely incorrect, the rainfall was extraordinary. We keep a lot especially for the tourists in August, and clans of killer midges as well!  Unlike many of your compatriots you are generous enough to simply say "Go for it". Any upheaval like this costs money UK/EU or Scotland/rUK. In the end it is sorted out, the deluded lies people tell themselves about Scotland being too poor are just that, fodder to the ignorant. Look at many similar sized countries in the EU and elsewhere doing ok with a fraction of our assets. How UK/EU will turn out may well be different, since the UK appears to want to lose valuable trading partners rather than keep them.

[herfiehandbag]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Airbagwill is correct, herfiehandbag, in that your proposal is essentially UDI.

 

I read a tweet the other day with some very limited details about UDI in other countries. I know next to no details other than this: 26 countries have attempted UDI. Only 13 have managed to get international recognition while the other 13 are economic basket cases. Of the 13 that have been recognised, 11 of them had to go through some sort of war or conflict on the road to recognition. So there is no appetite for UDI from most mainstream Nats. However a consultative referendum might be the way to go. That is not ideal either, but if a clear majority of voters vote Yes then the inevitable abstention of the Yoons will be less relevant. 

 

But I like your mature and sensible approach - there is no reason that it should bother anybody in England, Wales or NI. I believe that an independent Scotland would strengthen rather than weaken the fraternal bonds across our islands. 

 

3 hours ago, Nigel Garvie said:

I lived in Argyll for 5 years (Despite all the Campbell's which my Granny believed couldn't be trusted - long memory!) you are not entirely incorrect, the rainfall was extraordinary. We keep a lot especially for the tourists in August, and clans of killer midges as well!  Unlike many of your compatriots you are generous enough to simply say "Go for it". Any upheaval like this costs money UK/EU or Scotland/rUK. In the end it is sorted out, the deluded lies people tell themselves about Scotland being too poor are just that, fodder to the ignorant. Look at many similar sized countries in the EU and elsewhere doing ok with a fraction of our assets. How UK/EU will turn out may well be different, since the UK appears to want to lose valuable trading partners rather than keep them.

Thank you, both of you for your kind words, but please don't be under any misapprehension, whilst I think it is essentially Scotland and the Scots' business, and I wish that they would get on with it, I am very sceptical as to quite what benefits would flow from it particularly for Scotland. I may be wrong, and I am sure that it will work out in the end, I just don't think it will be "Brigadoon", and I think that Scotland and the Scots will be less well off as a result.

 

Yes, of course it would be UDI, but if a majority of Scots vote in an advisory referendum (where have we heard that before) for independance I am not sure what legal sanctions could be taken, Economic sanctions maybe, either deliberately imposed or more likely as an inadvertent result of the decision, but legally hard to argue against a majority decision in favour of leaving the union.

 

As for Campbelltown, and it;s weather, well I spent several months over a summer working from their quite some time ago. What a bloody awful place (sorry but I speak as I find). 

[RuamRudy]

20 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

 

Thank you, both of you for your kind words, but please don't be under any misapprehension, whilst I think it is essentially Scotland and the Scots' business, and I wish that they would get on with it, I am very sceptical as to quite what benefits would flow from it particularly for Scotland. I may be wrong, and I am sure that it will work out in the end, I just don't think it will be "Brigadoon", and I think that Scotland and the Scots will be less well off as a result.

 

Yes, of course it would be UDI, but if a majority of Scots vote in an advisory referendum (where have we heard that before) for independance I am not sure what legal sanctions could be taken, Economic sanctions maybe, either deliberately imposed or more likely as an inadvertent result of the decision, but legally hard to argue against a majority decision in favour of leaving the union.

 

As for Campbelltown, and it;s weather, well I spent several months over a summer working from their quite some time ago. What a bloody awful place (sorry but I speak as I find). 

It is taking it's time, isn't it? Frustration appears to be growing in the rank and file so hopefully we will hear some positive news soon. I am always intrigued as to why some people think an independent Scotland would be financially poorer than the status quo. Is there rationale behind your statement or just gut feel?

 

I don't quite understand your second paragraph. I was not suggesting that a consultative referendum would be a precursor to immediate independence but, rather, a clear cut sign of a desire to secede, which Westminster could not ignore. 

[herfiehandbag]

5 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

It is taking it's time, isn't it? Frustration appears to be growing in the rank and file so hopefully we will hear some positive news soon. I am always intrigued as to why some people think an independent Scotland would be financially poorer than the status quo. Is there rationale behind your statement or just gut feel?

 

I don't quite understand your second paragraph. I was not suggesting that a consultative referendum would be a precursor to immediate independence but, rather, a clear cut sign of a desire to secede, which Westminster could not ignore. 

My second paragraph was a reaction to another poster, who said (rather pompously I thought) that I was proposing UDI, and there were legal aspects to UDI which I did not understand and "should read up on before making such a suggestion"!

 

If the Scottish Parliament does decide to hold it's own consultative referendum, and if the result is for independence, then I think that the Scottish government should react swiftly. We have all seen what happens if you leave a referendum result sitting on the table, as it were, before enacting the decision.

 

As for the economic prospects for a newly independent Scotland, as I am certainly no economist it is really a "gut feeling", That said, if (as seems inevitable) they will use another countries currency, (Sterling or the Euro) with no say in the management of the currency, they will inevitably be ""sucking on the hind tit" when it comes to economic influence particularly in regard to investment and exports; could be wrong though!

Edited June 22, 2020 by herfiehandbag

[RuamRudy]

More details of that last poll released today - a solid majority of people under 55 support independence. 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, herfiehandbag said:

My second paragraph was a reaction to another poster, who said (rather pompously I thought) that I was proposing UDI, and there were legal aspects to UDI which I did not understand and "should read up on before making such a suggestion"!

 

If the Scottish Parliament does decide to hold it's own consultative referendum, and if the result is for independence, then I think that the Scottish government should react swiftly. We have all seen what happens if you leave a referendum result sitting on the table, as it were, before enacting the decision.

 

As for the economic prospects for a newly independent Scotland, as I am certainly no economist it is really a "gut feeling", That said, if (as seems inevitable) they will use another countries currency, (Sterling or the Euro) with no say in the management of the currency, they will inevitably be ""sucking on the hind tit" when it comes to economic influence particularly in regard to investment and exports; could be wrong though!

We already use another country's currency in that fiscal policy is naturally biased towards the needs to greater population. There are some who believe that the SG should issue their own currency but, like you, I am a bit out of my depth in that area. 

 

But outside London, Scotland is the largest recipient of FDI in the UK. Clearly the SG is doing something right in that respect. 

[Airbagwill]

My feeling is that any referendum needs to have a "super-majority". They are not there yet.

Simple majority referendums are constitutionally very dodgy.

[RuamRudy]

28 minutes ago, Airbagwill said:

My feeling is that any referendum needs to have a "super-majority". They are not there yet.

Simple majority referendums are constitutionally very dodgy.

4 years ago I would have agreed with you, but that's all out the window now. 

[herfiehandbag]

8 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

We already use another country's currency in that fiscal policy is naturally biased towards the needs to greater population. There are some who believe that the SG should issue their own currency but, like you, I am a bit out of my depth in that area. 

 

But outside London, Scotland is the largest recipient of FDI in the UK. Clearly the SG is doing something right in that respect. 

Well I would disagree, at present Scotland is part of the United Kingdom, and as such, along with the other constituents, England, Wales and Northern Ireland, uses the currency of that country, the Pound Sterling. The management of that currency and the economy is managed by the parliament of that country, Westminster, in which Scotland is fully represented. That Scotland, under the present parliament is almost entirely represented by an opposition party is true, but for much of the last 75 years it has been represented by a mix of parties, and has had influence, (some might say disproportionate influence) in the governments they have formed.

 

If you were to become an independent country, but using the currency of another, then you would have no formal role or probably influence in the management of that currency, and would therefore surrender effective control of your economy.

 

As for foreign investment and the part played by the Scottish Government, I suppose that it depends on whether the investors see themselves as investing in the UK or a separate country. If the latter then I suspect that the arrangement discussed above would put such investment in a rather different (unfavorable) light.

 

I'll throw a whole clowder of cats (just discovered a new collective noun for cats!) amongst the pigeons now; do the current Scottish Government really, really want real, full blown, independence? I ask because one of the first steps to that would be preparing and creating, or at least planning for, their own currency. I don't really see any attempt to do so. Wasn't that perhaps one of the main stumbling blocks in their proposals before the last independence referendum?

Edited June 23, 2020 by herfiehandbag

[Nigel Garvie]

2 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

Well I would disagree, at present Scotland is part of the United Kingdom, and as such, along with the other constituents, England, Wales and Northern Ireland, uses the currency of that country, the Pound Sterling. The management of that currency and the economy is managed by the parliament of that country, Westminster, in which Scotland is fully represented. That Scotland, under the present parliament is almost entirely represented by an opposition party is true, but for much of the last 75 years it has been represented by a mix of parties, and has had influence, (some might say disproportionate influence) in the governments they have formed.

 

If you were to become an independent country, but using the currency of another, then you would have no formal role or probably influence in the management of that currency, and would therefore surrender effective control of your economy.

 

As for foreign investment and the part played by the Scottish Government, I suppose that it depends on whether the investors see themselves as investing in the UK or a separate country. If the latter then I suspect that the arrangement discussed above would put such investment in a rather different (unfavorable) light.

 

I'll throw a whole clowder of cats (just discovered a new collective noun for cats!) amongst the pigeons now; do the current Scottish Government really, really want real, full blown, independence? I ask because one of the first steps to that would be preparing and creating, or at least planning for, their own currency. I don't really see any attempt to do so. Wasn't that perhaps one of the main stumbling blocks in their proposals before the last independence referendum?

Fairly said. I am no economics expert either, but it appears that on TV expert virologists, military strategists, engineers, agriculturists, and foreign policy experts, abound. On top of that many are blessed with the 2nd sight and are able to predict the future!

 

I don't worry about the currency thing too much. All over the world there are countries that use another country's currency (Mainly the dollar).  I guess that the understanding is that no holder of a main currency is going to do anything to harm their own currency/wefare, to the extent that it would negatively impact on another user. I think Scotland having it's own currency (Many a mickle makes a Muckle) is a long way in the future, if at all. 

 

Scotland's MPs have very rarely changed the result at a UK level. Even in Blair's days his majorities were generally large enough that they didn't need Scotland.

 

The growing tide for independence should not be seen as an anti English thing, all of us have English friends, and most of us some family connections as well. Rather it is an anti English rule thing. If you had stopped electing so many self serving corrupt lying crooks a while back then things could well be different. Not all Scottish MPs or MSPs are faultless of course, but we have never sunk to the unimaginably foul depths now being plumbed, by Boris and Cummings et al. No wonder the rising interest in Independence.

 

 

[BritManToo]

On 6/21/2020 at 4:45 PM, RuamRudy said:

But I like your mature and sensible approach - there is no reason that it should bother anybody in England, Wales or NI. I believe that an independent Scotland would strengthen rather than weaken the fraternal bonds across our islands. 

As long as Scots citizens have to pass the same VISA applications and regulations as all the other 3rd world countries whose citizens want to enter England, I'm all for it.

Edited June 23, 2020 by BritManToo

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, BritManToo said:

As long as Scots citizens have to pass the same VISA applications and regulations as all the other 3rd world countries whose citizens want to enter England, I'm all for it.

Will you allow temporary essential worker visas for the engineers who might hook up water supply pipelines (should we choose to sell water to you)?

 

England set to run out of water within 25 years – but Scotland has gallons going spare

 

“Loch Ness has more water than all of England and Wales combined. And that’s just one loch – Scotland has more than 31,000 freshwater lochs, and most are unused.

[RuamRudy]

5 hours ago, herfiehandbag said:

I'll throw a whole clowder of cats (just discovered a new collective noun for cats!) amongst the pigeons now; do the current Scottish Government really, really want real, full blown, independence? I ask because one of the first steps to that would be preparing and creating, or at least planning for, their own currency. I don't really see any attempt to do so. Wasn't that perhaps one of the main stumbling blocks in their proposals before the last independence referendum?

The English language may not have 37 words to describe snow, but nonetheless it never fails to amaze me with new words. 

 

I alluded in a previous post, I believe, that there are some in the indy camp who are getting restless and accusing SG of getting too comfortable with the status quo. Of course, it is easy to blame the WM bogeyman when things go wrong; the life of a London MP is relatively pampered; come independence, there will be a surplus of politicians etc. 

I have always been of the opinion that the SNP is a vehicle to independence, not the objective of it. I recall a very old slogan of theirs, 'Vote for us and we'll resign' but nowadays, they seem to be settled in for the long haul. 

[RuamRudy]

This is going to be fun - I imagine there will be a few apoplectic unionists on both sides of the border if she makes this a reality.

 

Border skirmish: Nicola Sturgeon fails to rule out quarantine for people travelling from rest of the UK to Scotland

Nicola Sturgeon has said introducing quarantine for people coming to Scotland from England is being considered, as she raised fears Boris Johnson was letting the coronavirus “circulate” south of the border.

[Mavideol]

3 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

This is going to be fun - I imagine there will be a few apoplectic unionists on both sides of the border if she makes this a reality.

 

Border skirmish: Nicola Sturgeon fails to rule out quarantine for people travelling from rest of the UK to Scotland

Nicola Sturgeon has said introducing quarantine for people coming to Scotland from England is being considered, as she raised fears Boris Johnson was letting the coronavirus “circulate” south of the border.

looking forward a good laugh  555

[JonnyF]

12 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

This is going to be fun - I imagine there will be a few apoplectic unionists on both sides of the border if she makes this a reality.

 

Border skirmish: Nicola Sturgeon fails to rule out quarantine for people travelling from rest of the UK to Scotland

Nicola Sturgeon has said introducing quarantine for people coming to Scotland from England is being considered, as she raised fears Boris Johnson was letting the coronavirus “circulate” south of the border.

lol, more posturing from Krankie. Still, if it deflects from her own domestic failings then it might be a decent tactic.

[RuamRudy]

6 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

lol, more posturing from Krankie. Still, if it deflects from her own domestic failings then it might be a decent tactic.

She is tasked with keeping the population of Scotland safe from COVID - she has managed to bring the infection rate and death rates to almost nil through a huge amount of hard work by her government and the efforts of the populatioin across the entire country. We cannot allow that sacrifice to be wasted because of the reckless policies of Johnson south of the border. For me, we need a hard border and only essential travel permitted across it; airports and sea ports too.

[Nigel Garvie]

On 6/23/2020 at 1:35 PM, RuamRudy said:

The English language may not have 37 words to describe snow, but nonetheless it never fails to amaze me with new words. 

 

I alluded in a previous post, I believe, that there are some in the indy camp who are getting restless and accusing SG of getting too comfortable with the status quo. Of course, it is easy to blame the WM bogeyman when things go wrong; the life of a London MP is relatively pampered; come independence, there will be a surplus of politicians etc. 

I have always been of the opinion that the SNP is a vehicle to independence, not the objective of it. I recall a very old slogan of theirs, 'Vote for us and we'll resign' but nowadays, they seem to be settled in for the long haul. 

I have never thought of it as an issue.  Should independence be achieved the SNP can call themselves what they like, same goes for all the rest of them. What is without doubt is that Scotland is basically a left of centre country, and I would have faith that we would elect decent representatives in the future. Sadly the English working class have descended into a mindless state of terminal cap doffing to the Tories and Rich, but that is not our problem. Hopefully the Scottish Tories will become a footnote in history, and be left to roam the moors, squawking like stuffed grouse.

Sturgeon may have been o'er canny on occasion, but the ISP don't attract me at all, wise decisions do not come from hot heads, however frustrating the current situation may be. 

[vogie]

34 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

This is going to be fun - I imagine there will be a few apoplectic unionists on both sides of the border if she makes this a reality.

 

Border skirmish: Nicola Sturgeon fails to rule out quarantine for people travelling from rest of the UK to Scotland

Nicola Sturgeon has said introducing quarantine for people coming to Scotland from England is being considered, as she raised fears Boris Johnson was letting the coronavirus “circulate” south of the border.

Just confirms what we already knew about the SNP.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

Just confirms what we already knew about the SNP.

That they want to protect the Scottish people from the effects of a deadly disease? Terrible, isn't it - why do you not want your government to do the same?

[RuamRudy]

Another Panelbase poll, this time for the Sunday Times, puts support for Scottish independence at 54%. 

Also, they are in line to take 55% of the constituency vote in next year's Holyrood election and take a clear majority of seats.

Sturgeon has an approval rating of +60 in relation to COVID handling. 

 

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Another Panelbase poll, this time for the Sunday Times, puts support for Scottish independence at 54%. 

Also, they are in line to take 55% of the constituency vote in next year's Holyrood election and take a clear majority of seats.

Sturgeon has an approval rating of +60 in relation to COVID handling. 

 

I had a further look at the data and it turns out to be even more encouraging than the above. If the Don't Knows are left in, the answer to the independence question is:

 

Yes - 50%

No - 43%

DK - 7%

 

So even before you take out the don't knows, independence is the clear preference. I am sure that more than a few of the DK will be won over if the argument is properly presented, and probably a few of those who responded No can be won too.

 

It really does feel like only a matter of time now - and if the SNP campaigns for Holyrood 2021 on a mandate for indyref2 and returns with a thumping SNP majority as the poll suggests then there can be no way that it will be refused. 

[evadgib]

5 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I had a further look at the data and it turns out to be even more encouraging than the above. If the Don't Knows are left in, the answer to the independence question is:

 

Yes - 50%

No - 43%

DK - 7%

 

So even before you take out the don't knows, independence is the clear preference. I am sure that more than a few of the DK will be won over if the argument is properly presented, and probably a few of those who responded No can be won too.

 

It really does feel like only a matter of time now - and if the SNP campaigns for Holyrood 2021 on a mandate for indyref2 and returns with a thumping SNP majority as the poll suggests then there can be no way that it will be refused. 

Boris might instead poll the entire Kingdom which would restore the 1688 BoR to ???????????????????????????? while RTUing ????????????????????????????to the dire position they were in cira 1707.

Reap what you sow...

[RuamRudy]

9 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Boris might instead poll the entire Kingdom which would restore the 1688 BoR to ???????????????????????????? while RTUing ????????????????????????????to the dire position they were in cira 1707.

Reap what you sow...

I am going to have to read up on the Bill of Rights - is there any particular aspect you recommend? 

I am racking my brains about RTU - return to user or remote telemetry unit?

[evadgib]

30 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I am going to have to read up on the Bill of Rights - is there any particular aspect you recommend? 

I am racking my brains about RTU - return to user or remote telemetry unit?

- The bit where ???????????????????????????? (in 1689) asked to be included and why.

- Slang for what a Glaswegian might term 'gettaefu' ????

[Rookiescot]

58 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I am going to have to read up on the Bill of Rights - is there any particular aspect you recommend? 

I am racking my brains about RTU - return to user or remote telemetry unit?

Wasting your time mate.

You are never going to convince the little Britons that they are wrong.

What is interesting is that despite that English exceptionalism that all brexiteers feel they just cant stop wanting Scotland to remain. Its as if they fear an independent Scotland will be more successful than Engurlund. Especially when we go back into the EU with open arms.  

[bendejo]

On 6/29/2020 at 11:21 PM, RuamRudy said:

That they want to protect the Scottish people from the effects of a deadly disease? Terrible, isn't it

Over on the Trump threads such a person is called far left.

 

 

[vogie]

16 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

It really does feel like only a matter of time now - and if the SNP campaigns for Holyrood 2021 on a mandate for indyref2 and returns with a thumping SNP majority as the poll suggests then there can be no way that it will be refused. 

What no-one has mentioned yet, do all the Scots that want independence also want to rejoin the EU? You may be correct in your assumption that the majority of Scots may want to disengage itself from the rest of the UK (at this very moment), but that does not automatically mean that the Scots want to rejoin the EU again, it just doesn't make sense that Scotland would get back power from Westminster and then hand it straight back to Brussels. That I'm sure would put a lot of Scots from voting to leave the Union, Jim Sillars the ex deputy leader of the SNP has suggested that there would be many abstensions from voters, deciding not to vote rather than vote againgst the SNP.

 

"And Nicola Sturgeon has been dancing up and down on the ball saying, you know you're stealing powers from us.

"The irony is that if she gets these powers, she wants to hand them all back to Brussels.

"That's a massive contradiction and her policy position.

"And I don't believe that if the SNP goes forward on a platform (that says) vote for independence and we take that automatically as a going into the European Union, I don't believe she'll get a majority." :Jim Sillars