Scotland must be given new independence vote - Sturgeon

[vogie]

1 minute ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

The Scots don’t have and never had the right to call an independence referendum and declare independence. They cannot decide their own fate. They are a vassal state of the failing UKSSR. It’s just not sinking in, is it? 

I really think you are being deliberately obtuse now.

[Rookiescot]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

Yes in 2014. A lot has happened since then.

Yes a lot has happened since then, but what has not happened is a generation span, listen to your leaders for once, they know better than you Rookie.

 

You were not torn out of anything, the UK voted to leave, accept it and stop thinking you are a special case, you're not, we voted as one.

 

I don't have to do anything to convince the Scots to stay because you aint going anywhere, you can't, you don't meet the EUs most stringent criteria.

 

I think that the SNP is in such a mess it doesn't realise the powers it has got.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your linked video just proved my point.

Powers which are currently devolved to the EU are not being repatriated to the Scottish government they are being grabbed by Westminster.

Anything which was not specifically listed in the Scotland act was given over to the Scottish government. Westminster has now grabbed powers not excluded specifically in the Scotland Act.

How come you want a throw away line like "Once in a generation" to suddenly be written in stone when comments like "No-one is threatening our place in the single market" are now disposable? 

Pure hypocrisy.  

So you cant think of anything to actually convince Scotland to stay in the dysfunctional union. All you can offer is "You are not going anywhere". Pure colonialism. Surely if the union was a good thing then a referendum would confirm that? Oh no wait. Brexiteer democracy. You are not allowed to change your mind.

It will be up to Scotland and the EU as to whether we meet their criteria.

Tell me something Vogie. Why have we gone from a majority of Scots wanting to remain in the union to a majority Scots wanting to leave? 

 

[Rookiescot]

14 minutes ago, vogie said:

The Scots decided their own fate in 2014 and it is the last time I'm telling you, it is just not sinking in, is it.

A lot has happened since 2014. Did you not get the memo?

[welovesundaysatspace]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

I really think you are being deliberately obtuse now.

What I wrote is very well documented in existing UKSSR laws ???? 

[Rookiescot]

9 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

The Scots don’t have and never had the right to call an independence referendum and declare independence. They cannot decide their own fate. They are a vassal state of the failing UKSSR. It’s just not sinking in, is it? 

Mate there are moves afoot to decide that.

Remember that Scotland was never taken into the union via a referendum so why would it need one to leave?

No. The Scottish parliament at the time entered the union. Legally the Scottish parliament can leave it.

[vogie]

3 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Powers which are currently devolved to the EU are not being repatriated to the Scottish government they are being grabbed by Westminster.

Yes so that was stated and what do the SNP want to do with the powers, YES, give them back to the EU, it seems you don't want them.

 

5 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

 

Anything which was not specifically listed in the Scotland act was given over to the Scottish government. Westminster has now grabbed powers not excluded specifically in the Scotland Act.

How come you want a throw away line like "Once in a generation" to suddenly be written in stone when comments like "No-one is threatening our place in the single market" are now disposable? 

Pure hypocrisy.  

So you cant think of anything to actually convince Scotland to stay in the dysfunctional union. All you can offer is "You are not going anywhere". Pure colonialism. Surely if the union was a good thing then a referendum would confirm that? Oh no wait. Brexiteer democracy. You are not allowed to change your mind.

It will be up to Scotland and the EU as to whether we meet their criteria.

Tell me something Vogie. Why have we gone from a majority of Scots wanting to remain in the union to a majority Scots wanting to leave? 

 

The SNP, the neverendum party, they are crippling Scotland and all they care about is "we want another referendum" it's about time Mrs Sturgeon realised this and got her priorities in order.

 

It will not be up to Scotland whether you meet their criteria (which you don't), it will be solely up to the EU to decide this.

[vogie]

10 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

A lot has happened since 2014. Did you not get the memo?

A generation hasn't happened!

[Rookiescot]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

Yes so that was stated and what do the SNP want to do with the powers, YES, give them back to the EU, it seems you don't want them.

 

The SNP, the neverendum party, they are crippling Scotland and all they care about is "we want another referendum" it's about time Mrs Sturgeon realised this and got her priorities in order.

 

It will not be up to Scotland whether you meet their criteria (which you don't), it will be solely up to the EU to decide this.

Again you fail to address the points I made.

Its always the same with you. You have this absolute talent for reading a post then utterly failing to answer it.

You dont work for British intelligence do you? They have the same issues with Russian interference in the UK.

[Rookiescot]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

A generation hasn't happened!

What does that mean? A throwaway line in an interview suddenly becomes gospel but phrases like "No-one is threatening our place in the single market are not?

Utter hypocrisy.

[vogie]

5 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Again you fail to address the points I made.

Its always the same with you. You have this absolute talent for reading a post then utterly failing to answer it.

You dont work for British intelligence do you? They have the same issues with Russian interference in the UK.

But your posts are just like Russian interference, total fiction.

[Dave0206]

I am Scottish but not living there so I've always had a vested interest in which direction we were heading.

in 79 we was given an impossible target for devolution first get 66% of vote with non voters counting as remain so if 90% turnout leavers need an almost 3 to 1 majority. 

mrs Thatcher knew how to appeal to the Scots quickly followed by poll tax.

During this period north sea oil was being sold by conservative government. 

Norway took different route they are doing well?

now family jewelry sold no point leaving. 

ps before Thatcher died lot of discussion regards state funeral. 

Scots only discussed if we should wait till she died

[herfiehandbag]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

The relentless rise in the strength of the independence movement is what is keeping this thread alive ???? 

Are you sure? As a dispassionate observer it seems to be you and a slack handful of mates resurrecting the same old arguments every few days!

[herfiehandbag]

32 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Mate there are moves afoot to decide that.

Remember that Scotland was never taken into the union via a referendum so why would it need one to leave?

No. The Scottish parliament at the time entered the union. Legally the Scottish parliament can leave it.

Umh, the Scottish Parliament at the time entered the Union, and abolished itself. It is dead and long gone, as dead as a Norwegian Blue parrot!

 

The current Holyrood Parliament is an entirely new construction. No connection or inheritance.

 

To put it into perspective - an English King named John signed Magna Carta in June 1215.

I am English, and share his Christian name. That doesn't mean that I can rescind Magna Carta!

????

[Rookiescot]

22 minutes ago, vogie said:

But your posts are just like Russian interference, total fiction.

Another quality dismissal of points there mate.

Tell me Vogie. Why have we gone from a majority of Scots wanting to remain in the union to a majority wanting to leave?

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, herfiehandbag said:

Umh, the Scottish Parliament at the time entered the Union, and abolished itself. It is dead and long gone, as dead as a Norwegian Blue parrot!

 

The current Holyrood Parliament is an entirely new construction. No connection or inheritance.

 

To put it into perspective - an English King named John signed Magna Carta in June 1215.

I am English, and share his Christian name. That doesn't mean that I can rescind Magna Carta!

????

Read the Scotland act. It specifically says to re-establish the parliament of Scotland.

[welovesundaysatspace]

 

47 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Remember that Scotland was never taken into the union via a referendum so why would it need one to leave?

I didn’t say that. I said it should be up to Scotland to decide their own fate. If Scotland wants to hold a referendum first then this should be Scotland’s decision alone. If Scotland wants to declare independence without a referendum then this should be Scotland’s decision alone. 

 

[vogie]

Just now, Rookiescot said:

Another quality dismissal of points there mate.

Tell me Vogie. Why have we gone from a majority of Scots wanting to remain in the union to a majority wanting to leave?

Points to note: I chose to answer what I decide to answer, sometimes I feel some tripe doesn't require an answer and also it is very bad TVisa etiquette to prompt other posters to answer your questions, you are not Magnus Magnusson, I hope this clears this up and I have your complete understanding and support.

[Rookiescot]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

Points to note: I chose to answer what I decide to answer, sometimes I feel some tripe doesn't require an answer and also it is very bad TVisa etiquette to prompt other posters to answer your questions, you are not Magnus Magnusson, I hope this clears this up and I have your complete understanding and support.

In other words.

You dont have an answer. Why do you bother to reply if you do not wish to answer. TV etiquette calls that trolling.

Thanks for the clarification. 

[Rookiescot]

10 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

 

I didn’t say that. I said it should be up to Scotland to decide their own fate. If Scotland wants to hold a referendum first then this should be Scotland’s decision alone. If Scotland wants to declare independence without a referendum then this should be Scotland’s decision alone. 

 

Mate I believe we both agree.

[vogie]

6 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

In other words.

You dont have an answer. Why do you bother to reply if you do not wish to answer. TV etiquette calls that trolling.

Thanks for the clarification. 

So in other words if no one obeys your commands you insult them, thanks for the clarification.

[Rookiescot]

1 minute ago, vogie said:

So in other words if no one obeys your commands you insult them, thanks for the clarification.

Its not a case of that at all Vogie.

There are many posts on many threads I simply do not respond to because I many not wish to or I consider them tolling posts.

Honestly mate try it yourself. Its liberating. And if push come to shove you block the poster. Makes life a whole lot better.

Now genuine posts which ask difficult questions? Thats a different ball game. You gotta put some thought into those and post a good reply.

Sometimes you win the debate (not argument) sometimes you lose.

But either way it keeps the old grey matter turning over and thats never a bad thing. 

[melvinmelvin]

 

jeeeeezus - and already on a Tuesday

 

from resonably coherent exchange of views on Scotland and independence

to

my dick is bigger than your dick, in a matter of seconds

[rott]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Is your definition of decency total acquiescence and the abandonment of principles? Should we stop running elections every 5 years because there was a decisive winner in 2019? How about you show some decency and respect the will of the majority - because it is a majority who want independence, I am afraid. Only a dwindling minority want to stick with London rule.

I am speaking about respecting the will of the majority. Are you saying that you are exempt from this? 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

Its not a case of that at all Vogie.

There are many posts on many threads I simply do not respond to because I many not wish to or I consider them tolling posts.

Honestly mate try it yourself. Its liberating. And if push come to shove you block the poster. Makes life a whole lot better.

Now genuine posts which ask difficult questions? Thats a different ball game. You gotta put some thought into those and post a good reply.

Sometimes you win the debate (not argument) sometimes you lose.

But either way it keeps the old grey matter turning over and thats never a bad thing. 

Nobody will ever win a debate with a SNP follower, I cannot ever remember you or anyone of team Nico ever losing a debate because you know the damage you are doing to Scotland and your fellow Scots and not one of you will ever admit to that.

You see as a SNP/remainer you have two axes to grind and will never admit that the two referendums (indy/EU) were indeed a true display of democracy, to do that you would have to admit defeat. Now 4 and 6 years down the line you are still arguing over the two democratic referendums which in most peoples eyes defies all logic, of course you are going to get a few Eumainers who like to stick their oar in, but only out of bitterness to the Brexiteers and not because they want you to get indy2.

But deep down you surely must have reservations about getting independence, you must know it is not good for Scotland and is just a Mel Gibson moment, tis just a dream that will never ever come to any fruition. I would like to wish you good luck but I won't as I think that our union is stronger together.

 

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, herfiehandbag said:

Are you sure? As a dispassionate observer it seems to be you and a slack handful of mates resurrecting the same old arguments every few days!

TV is hardly reflective of the real world, thankfully. 

[RuamRudy]

31 minutes ago, rott said:

I am speaking about respecting the will of the majority. Are you saying that you are exempt from this? 

And the mood has changed such that support for independence has consistently been the majority for quite some time now. We have a thumping majority of MPs in Westminster supporting independence and a majority of MSPs at Holyrood supporting independence. We have three electoral mandates to seek a new referendum. Why do you show such disdain to democracy?

[Rookiescot]

24 minutes ago, vogie said:

Nobody will ever win a debate with a SNP follower, I cannot ever remember you or anyone of team Nico ever losing a debate because you know the damage you are doing to Scotland and your fellow Scots and not one of you will ever admit to that.

You see as a SNP/remainer you have two axes to grind and will never admit that the two referendums (indy/EU) were indeed a true display of democracy, to do that you would have to admit defeat. Now 4 and 6 years down the line you are still arguing over the two democratic referendums which in most peoples eyes defies all logic, of course you are going to get a few Eumainers who like to stick their oar in, but only out of bitterness to the Brexiteers and not because they want you to get indy2.

But deep down you surely must have reservations about getting independence, you must know it is not good for Scotland and is just a Mel Gibson moment, tis just a dream that will never ever come to any fruition. I would like to wish you good luck but I won't as I think that our union is stronger together.

 

No, us on "team Nico" do not on the whole lose that debate because we have the facts, figures, links and evidence to prove our point.

For your next point. Scottish independence will damage Scotlands economy but Brexit will not? Seriously? You are trying to take some moral high ground about hurting the economy yet remain an ardent Brexiteer?

What happened to all the "Its about more than the economy its about self determination and sovereignty" that you guys are so fond of posting?

Democracy? A consistent majority show support for Scottish independence. Is it democratic to refuse the will of the people?

The union (what there was of it) is over mate. Get used to it.   

Ironically its the lies Better Together told that has caused the entire thing to collapse.  

[vogie]

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

No, us on "team Nico" do not on the whole lose that debate because we have the facts, figures, links and evidence to prove our point.

For your next point. Scottish independence will damage Scotlands economy but Brexit will not? Seriously? You are trying to take some moral high ground about hurting the economy yet remain an ardent Brexiteer?

What happened to all the "Its about more than the economy its about self determination and sovereignty" that you guys are so fond of posting?

Democracy? A consistent majority show support for Scottish independence. Is it democratic to refuse the will of the people?

The union (what there was of it) is over mate. Get used to it.   

Ironically its the lies Better Together told that has caused the entire thing to collapse.  

I rest my case, no further questions and no more evidence required. Case dismissed.

[RuamRudy]

An interesting article here from Tax Research UK:

 

Scotland won’t need to repay the UK’s national debt if it’s independent unless the UK does as well – and there’s almost no chance of that

 

...Scotland does not have any obligation to compensate  England any part of the  so-called UK national debt as agent for the rest of the UK because no part of that debt can at present be attributed to Scotland.

...if Scotland did have a notional liability owing to the rest of the UK  the capital balance on the loan would not need repayment because there is no indication that the remaining UK will be repaying any of its debt.

 

[Rookiescot]

7 minutes ago, vogie said:

I rest my case, no further questions and no more evidence required. Case dismissed.

OK let me put it to you this way.

Lets imagine there was consistent polling showing support for Brexit but Westminster refused to give a referendum on the matter.

How would you feel?