Scotland must be given new independence vote - Sturgeon

[Nigel Garvie]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

I'm sure you're correct, there maybe even some really nice ones if you look hard enough.

You know what I might even be more Scottish than you, my grandfather was born in the Gorbals in 1898, when he left I'm not sure but he enlisted with the DLI in West Hartlepool in 1915, (found his records on the DLI website.) He came out a RQMS and lived the rest of his life out in the North East.

 

Double click, sorry.

I think we are more alike than you give credit for.

Well we share a love of Munros, I used to be an outward bound instructor and did one 2/3 times a week. I don't make an issue of Scottishness, but my mum, a McLeod, was 100%, and my dad 25%, by blood so to speak. I have lived here for nearly 60 years. I consider that sadly, the world they and I grew up in, was a simpler and more gentle world, despite being having old fashioned social values, which are (Mainly rightly) unacceptable now. 

Differences notwithstanding, jaw, jaw, beats war, war, any day!

[RuamRudy]

16 minutes ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Well we share a love of Munros, I used to be an outward bound instructor and did one 2/3 times a week. I don't make an issue of Scottishness, but my mum, a McLeod, was 100%, and my dad 25%, by blood so to speak. I have lived here for nearly 60 years. I consider that sadly, the world they and I grew up in, was a simpler and more gentle world, despite being having old fashioned social values, which are (Mainly rightly) unacceptable now. 

Differences notwithstanding, jaw, jaw, beats war, war, any day!

Nigel, did you know John Hinde from Outward Bound Locheil? In 1990 he took a bunch of rowdy, unfit apprentices, myself included, into the wilds of Lochaber and scared the bejeesus out of us, but everyone to a lad came away feeling 10ft tall after that 2 week course. He was a remarkable and inspiring man. 

[evadgib]

51 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Nigel, did you know John Hinde from Outward Bound Locheil? In 1990 he took a bunch of rowdy, unfit apprentices, myself included, into the wilds of Lochaber and scared the bejeesus out of us, but everyone to a lad came away feeling 10ft tall after that 2 week course. He was a remarkable and inspiring man. 

I enjoyed this place while training crows around the same time, RR.

[Nigel Garvie]

5 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Nigel, did you know John Hinde from Outward Bound Locheil? In 1990 he took a bunch of rowdy, unfit apprentices, myself included, into the wilds of Lochaber and scared the bejeesus out of us, but everyone to a lad came away feeling 10ft tall after that 2 week course. He was a remarkable and inspiring man. 

The place I worked was Camusrory at the head of Loch Nevis, in Knoydart, but that was 1975! "Moby MacLean" had a place on the other side of the Loch for a few years. Yes we knew of the Locheil OB school, and our boss (Tony Montgomery) was friends with the boss there, but who that was I wouldn't know. Character building stuff for sure, but seasonal, and I moved on to different work in mid Argyll that winter.

 

A bit off topic I guess, but harmlessly so. 

[sandyf]

22 hours ago, vogie said:

It is telling that the only consistent argument against independence is a throwaway remark that had no legal or procedural implications whatsoever, and bore no significance at all until 2 years after the event.

But it wasn't "just a throwaway" remark now was it (unless you are in denial of course), it was also written down in the Edinburgh Agreement and signed by no less than Salmond and Sturgeon. You are moving the goal posts so much that the football pitch is now resembling a field.

 

 

When you do not want to go down with the ship, you have to jump.

 

The leader of the Scottish Conservatives, Jackson Carlaw, resigned unexpectedly on Thursday, saying he is not “the person best placed” to make the case for the union amid growing calls for independence.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jackson-carlaw-resign-scottish-tory-leader-independence-referendum-a9646521.html?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=INDNEWS%2331072020&utm_term=IND_Headlines_Masterlist_CDP

[sandyf]

22 hours ago, vogie said:

What part of "decisive" is so dificult to understand, after all what can't speak can't lie.

How "decisive" is an influenced decision?, of course a bit of an irrelevance for some. It will be a sad day when any result cannot be questioned, maybe you believe the practice of holding a steward's enquiry should be abolished.

Only those with their heads where they shouldn't be, cannot see the clouds gathering.

 

It will conclude that there is “credible open-source commentary that Russia undertook to influence the campaign on Scottish independence”, describing it as “the first post-Soviet interference in a Western democratic election”.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/07/20/russia-report-kremlin-tried-meddle-scottish-independence-vote/

[sandyf]

On 7/30/2020 at 1:45 PM, Nigel Garvie said:

Well I hold my hands up and acknowledge, that I did describe Unionists as traitors. It was in a moment of anger and frustration at a previous post, but not justifiable, anymore than it is to call Remainers the same. It is water under the bridge for me, least said soonest mended. I very rarely meet unionists, but I'm sure there must be some reasonable ones about.

In 2016 about 49% of the population were unionist.

The problem is that those living in Scotland that were happy to be in 2 unions are now being forced to choose and only the mentally challenged would not see that as a significant change in circumstances.

That wasn't the position in 2014 and the Scots have every right to make that choice based on a new white paper from the Scottish parliament.

Bojo is making every excuse under the sun as NS has highlighted the stumblebum he really is.

[RuamRudy]

45 minutes ago, sandyf said:

When you do not want to go down with the ship, you have to jump.

 

The leader of the Scottish Conservatives, Jackson Carlaw, resigned unexpectedly on Thursday, saying he is not “the person best placed” to make the case for the union amid growing calls for independence.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jackson-carlaw-resign-scottish-tory-leader-independence-referendum-a9646521.html?utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=INDNEWS%2331072020&utm_term=IND_Headlines_Masterlist_CDP

Looks like another Westminster placeman is coming to replace Carcrash, although I am not convinced his departure is of his own choosing.

 

Before the ink had even dried on his resignation speech, Douglas Ross had issued a statement confirming his interest in running for leader - already adorned with a 'Douglas Ross for Leader' logo. Then, later, he issued another statement in which he confirmed his intention to run, adding that as he was currently a serving MP, he had requested Ruth Davidson to lead FMQs for him until he could take over.

 

Bizarre - an unremarkable lickspittle careerist who's only notable point since he became an MP was to state that, were he suddenly PM, his first course of action would be to prosecute travelers (he didn't say what for - maybe simply for being travelers), yet he thinks that, from his position of disappointing mediocrity at the back of the hall, he can already issue directives to the Tories in Scotland as to how they must run their affairs! I guess it is clear that the 'Scottish' can be dropped from the name north of the border - clearly Westminster has taken full charge. 

[evadgib]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Looks like another Westminster placeman is coming to replace Carcrash, although I am not convinced his departure is of his own choosing.

 

Before the ink had even dried on his resignation speech, Douglas Ross had issued a statement confirming his interest in running for leader - already adorned with a 'Douglas Ross for Leader' logo. Then, later, he issued another statement in which he confirmed his intention to run, adding that as he was currently a serving MP, he had requested Ruth Davidson to lead FMQs for him until he could take over.

 

Bizarre - an unremarkable lickspittle careerist who's only notable point since he became an MP was to state that, were he suddenly PM, his first course of action would be to prosecute travelers (he didn't say what for - maybe simply for being travelers), yet he thinks that, from his position of disappointing mediocrity at the back of the hall, he can already issue directives to the Tories in Scotland as to how they must run their affairs! I guess it is clear that the 'Scottish' can be dropped from the name north of the border - clearly Westminster has taken full charge. 

I had never heard of either of them but the latter sounds just like Swinson ????

[RuamRudy]

In the interest of balance, I thought I might point out that there is a major schism emerging within the SNP at this very moment.

 

Joanna Cherry, held by many to be a very capable and likeable MP, had previously indicated her intention to run for Ruth Davidson's seat in the Scottish Parliamentary elections next spring. Only this week, however, the NEC of the SNP has thwarted that bid by creating a new rule whereby a sitting MP is now forced to resign from their Westminster constituency before they an put themselves forward for Holyrood (she had stated that she would resign from Westminster if she was elected an MSP).

 

At the same time, James Dorman, the MSP for Glasgow Cathcart, who had previously announced that he was retiring but later changed his mind and proposed that he would stand for re-election, was ruled out when the NEC decided that Glasgow must have an all-female list, stating that his prior resignation was not rescinded in time.

 

The ire this is creating amongst the rank and file is significant, with many people cancelling their membership. One might wonder why the party is going through these paroxysms of self mutilation when the goal of independence has never seemed so close to being achieved, however from what I can gather, there is a major power struggle going on inside the party, with the young reactionaries forcing out the old guard.

 

Much of this is probably beyond the interest of the average man on the street, but the real impact will be seen with the emergence of new independence parties - the much touted Wings party (backed by the independence blog Wings over Scotland), for example, has been linked to Salmond potentially making a return to political life. 

 

One thing is certain to me though - if independence is achieved, one of the first fall-outs from it will be the dissolution of the SNP, or a mass defection of much of its membership. 

[RuamRudy]

18 minutes ago, evadgib said:

I had never heard of either of them but the latter sounds just like Swinson ????

Both eminently forgettable - but, sadly, both living well in the pockets of the taxpayer.  

[Nigel Garvie]

7 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

In the interest of balance, I thought I might point out that there is a major schism emerging within the SNP at this very moment.

 

Joanna Cherry, held by many to be a very capable and likeable MP, had previously indicated her intention to run for Ruth Davidson's seat in the Scottish Parliamentary elections next spring. Only this week, however, the NEC of the SNP has thwarted that bid by creating a new rule whereby a sitting MP is now forced to resign from their Westminster constituency before they an put themselves forward for Holyrood (she had stated that she would resign from Westminster if she was elected an MSP).

 

At the same time, James Dorman, the MSP for Glasgow Cathcart, who had previously announced that he was retiring but later changed his mind and proposed that he would stand for re-election, was ruled out when the NEC decided that Glasgow must have an all-female list, stating that his prior resignation was not rescinded in time.

 

The ire this is creating amongst the rank and file is significant, with many people cancelling their membership. One might wonder why the party is going through these paroxysms of self mutilation when the goal of independence has never seemed so close to being achieved, however from what I can gather, there is a major power struggle going on inside the party, with the young reactionaries forcing out the old guard.

 

Much of this is probably beyond the interest of the average man on the street, but the real impact will be seen with the emergence of new independence parties - the much touted Wings party (backed by the independence blog Wings over Scotland), for example, has been linked to Salmond potentially making a return to political life. 

 

One thing is certain to me though - if independence is achieved, one of the first fall-outs from it will be the dissolution of the SNP, or a mass defection of much of its membership. 

Cards on the table. I think NS has done a brilliant job, honest and direct with the public, and solid in Holyrood as Carcrash learned to his cost. She is THE recognised face of the SNP and the independence struggle. Why are we doing this you quite rightly say. 

 

Salmond - rightly or wrongly - is tainted goods, and would put a number of the waverers that we are winning from the middle ground right off. 

 

The idealism of the young is admirable, but they lack experience, and are easily mislead. I am saying this despite the fact that I am on record as supporting the young over the venal boomers who have exploited everyone, including the young to the hilt. However to see how Lansman utterly abused the votes of his young Momentum supporters for his own ends, shows how easily this can be done. 

 

It is sad that the moment we get a majority - albeit small - of the public on our side, the rats appear, to try and get a slice of the action and promote their myopic narrow viewed interpretation of what independence should be. I wish the Wings party, the ISP, the SSP, and god knows who else would away and boil their heids. If a second list vote won't pay off for the SNP, then I will vote Green who have been unwavering in their support for independence. If they force me to eat more carrots I'll just have to live with that!

[sandyf]

18 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Joanna Cherry, held by many to be a very capable and likeable MP, had previously indicated her intention to run for Ruth Davidson's seat in the Scottish Parliamentary elections next spring.  

Personally I think that would be a mistake. Maybe she is finding the long distance arrangement difficult but Scotland needs people of her experience in Westminster.

I am sure there would be a high profile job for her post Scexit.

[sandyf]

11 hours ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Salmond - rightly or wrongly - is tainted goods, and would put a number of the waverers that we are winning from the middle ground right off. 

Salmond has been tainted from his early days but unfortunately time and selective memory changes perspective.

I can remember being home on leave sometime in the 70's and my father had come from a rally held by Salmond in the town hall. He was furious, called him a troublemaker, they didn't use the term "terrorist" in those days. Said it would be a sad day for Scotland if he ever got into politics.

Salmond seemed to get the message when the 79 Group got expelled, changed direction and the rest is history, but there is a saying about leopards and spots.

 

What some in Westminster and south of the border generally fail to recognise is that in 2014 a percentage of the Scots voted against Salmond, not independence.

Edited August 2, 2020 by sandyf

[RuamRudy]

Oof - even putting his own repellent voting history to one side, this mediocre front runner to lead the Scottish Tories would have his work cut out trying to defend what is seen as indefensible by many. 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

16 hours ago, Nigel Garvie said:

Cards on the table. I think NS has done a brilliant job, honest and direct with the public, and solid in Holyrood as Carcrash learned to his cost. She is THE recognised face of the SNP and the independence struggle. Why are we doing this you quite rightly say. 

 

Salmond - rightly or wrongly - is tainted goods, and would put a number of the waverers that we are winning from the middle ground right off. 

 

The idealism of the young is admirable, but they lack experience, and are easily mislead. I am saying this despite the fact that I am on record as supporting the young over the venal boomers who have exploited everyone, including the young to the hilt. However to see how Lansman utterly abused the votes of his young Momentum supporters for his own ends, shows how easily this can be done. 

 

It is sad that the moment we get a majority - albeit small - of the public on our side, the rats appear, to try and get a slice of the action and promote their myopic narrow viewed interpretation of what independence should be. I wish the Wings party, the ISP, the SSP, and god knows who else would away and boil their heids. If a second list vote won't pay off for the SNP, then I will vote Green who have been unwavering in their support for independence. If they force me to eat more carrots I'll just have to live with that!

Totally agree about NS - I always liked her and felt she had never lost her common touch, but there are few around her who I would wish to replace her if she were to step down. Cherry (and possibly Whitford, although I am not sure that she is so driven to be leader) is one of the few I would trust to replace her. From the men, none really impress me although Angus MacNeil is a bit of a rebel on twitter, openly criticising the party and its decisions without any attempt to couch his language. 

 

It looks, however, like a good dose of twitter outrage has forced the grown ups to restore order. The situation with James Dornan has been reversed and, hopefully the next will be the situation with Joanna Cherry. 

 

I get your point about a greens being the natural home for the second vote but that has not really panned out too well in the past. There will, I hope, be a far more prominent role for the greens in an independent Scotland but for now I would welcome a list party campaigning on the single issue of forcing through independence. 

 

 

[RuamRudy]

5 hours ago, sandyf said:

Personally I think that would be a mistake. Maybe she is finding the long distance arrangement difficult but Scotland needs people of her experience in Westminster.

I am sure there would be a high profile job for her post Scexit.

I suspect that she is more eager for independence that some of the others. I guess it is fair to say that, combined, we have more MSPs and MPs than we would require post independence. Possibly it is unfair of me to suggest it, but maybe some of the less stellar incumbents recognise that their cards would be marked if there was only one parliament. 

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

I suspect that she is more eager for independence that some of the others. I guess it is fair to say that, combined, we have more MSPs and MPs than we would require post independence. Possibly it is unfair of me to suggest it, but maybe some of the less stellar incumbents recognise that their cards would be marked if there was only one parliament. 

Probably something in that but as the old saying goes, the cream will rise to the top.

[sandyf]

On 8/1/2020 at 9:38 AM, RuamRudy said:

Before the ink had even dried on his resignation speech, Douglas Ross had issued a statement confirming his interest in running for leader - already adorned with a 'Douglas Ross for Leader' logo. Then, later, he issued another statement in which he confirmed his intention to run, adding that as he was currently a serving MP, he had requested Ruth Davidson to lead FMQs for him until he could take over.

MP for my home county, he went to the same school as me although over 20 years later. The problem with Moray is that there are only 2 towns of any significant size, Forres & Elgin, and there is a certain amount of discontent with the Scottish Government in one of them. The people of Forres feel they have been let down with not enough done to protect Kinloss and consolidation of local government into Elgin, they have even closed the hospital in Forres. This has effectively brought investment in Forres to a halt and the place is becoming a ghost town. Taking the current situation into account there is a good chance that next time round that could go against national government.

 

Article in the Independent today about Sunak going north to fly the flag. Interesting that nearly all the comments, from south of the border, were sympathetic to the Scottish cause.

An example.

 

Sunak has previously said that if Scotland wants to choose its own future then it would be undemocratic to stand in the way. Then he got a top job in the UK government and suddenly changed his tune. Funny that. It’s also interesting to see how a government, and this goes back to the Thatcher years, that is willing to sacrifice everything on the alter of saving money, trying to convince us that Scotland is a huge liability and how they are pumping zillions into keeping it afloat and yet, mention independence, and they go into a pants-wetting panic. Could it be possible they aren’t telling us the truth? Perish the thought!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/scotland-independence-uk-covid-loans-businesses-coronavirus-a9658461.html

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, sandyf said:

MP for my home county, he went to the same school as me although over 20 years later. The problem with Moray is that there are only 2 towns of any significant size, Forres & Elgin, and there is a certain amount of discontent with the Scottish Government in one of them. The people of Forres feel they have been let down with not enough done to protect Kinloss and consolidation of local government into Elgin, they have even closed the hospital in Forres. This has effectively brought investment in Forres to a halt and the place is becoming a ghost town. Taking the current situation into account there is a good chance that next time round that could go against national government.

 

Article in the Independent today about Sunak going north to fly the flag. Interesting that nearly all the comments, from south of the border, were sympathetic to the Scottish cause.

An example.

 

Sunak has previously said that if Scotland wants to choose its own future then it would be undemocratic to stand in the way. Then he got a top job in the UK government and suddenly changed his tune. Funny that. It’s also interesting to see how a government, and this goes back to the Thatcher years, that is willing to sacrifice everything on the alter of saving money, trying to convince us that Scotland is a huge liability and how they are pumping zillions into keeping it afloat and yet, mention independence, and they go into a pants-wetting panic. Could it be possible they aren’t telling us the truth? Perish the thought!

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/scotland-independence-uk-covid-loans-businesses-coronavirus-a9658461.html

Definitely there will need to be a much more balanced approach to the distribution of departments around the country and the devolving of power from the central belt to the regions. The whole NE area of Cromarty and Moray has so much potential to develop beyond farming and fishing, and with that comes the investment in infrastructure, etc etc. All very Keynesian but also very doable. Then there is the creation of European ferry connections, commercial shipping ports etc. What a time to be alive!

[transam]

1 hour ago, RuamRudy said:

Definitely there will need to be a much more balanced approach to the distribution of departments around the country and the devolving of power from the central belt to the regions. The whole NE area of Cromarty and Moray has so much potential to develop beyond farming and fishing, and with that comes the investment in infrastructure, etc etc. All very Keynesian but also very doable. Then there is the creation of European ferry connections, commercial shipping ports etc. What a time to be alive!

And tossing the EU caber......????

[RuamRudy]

4 minutes ago, transam said:

And tossing the EU caber......????

Our choice to make - and make it, we will ???? 

[RuamRudy]

What a nice headline to wake up to:

 

[RuamRudy]

And then this - can the day get any better?

 

[melvinmelvin]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

What a nice headline to wake up to:

 

the article to the right would fit nicely in one of the border/Channel crossing threads

 

[transam]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

And then this - can the day get any better?

 

How many million folk did they ask...?  

[welovesundaysatspace]

1 hour ago, transam said:

How many million folk did they ask...?  

Now much do you know about empirical research? 

[NiceGuyEddy]

Didn't the Scots have their 'once in a generation' independance vote a few years ago? Surely the losers in that vote aren't still crying about it?

[Phulublub]

22 minutes ago, NiceGuyEddy said:

Didn't the Scots have their 'once in a generation' independance vote a few years ago? Surely the losers in that vote aren't still crying about it?

They did.  Although not Scots, I was there and voted to stay in the UK.  But that was before the Brexit shambles, which has fundamentally changed the outlook hugely.  A considerable portion of those who voted to remain would, had they known the choice, have voted to remain in the EU rather than the UK.  I think I may well have been among them.

 

I was (and am) greatly of the opinion that we are in a much better position working together with frinds and neighbours rather than fighting against them.

 

If the thoughts of a number of pro-Brexit posters here are in any way representative of England as a whole, I would vote to break up the UK and leave England to sail off on its own.  I would not be onboard.

 

PH

[transam]

57 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Now much do you know about empirical research? 

You mean "how"...?

If yes, they don't ask ever individual their wishes, guess work. ????