UK prosecutors to charge U.S. diplomat's wife over fatal car crash

[Sujo]

2 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 On the basis of what? (I'm asking, because, I don't know the pertinent details).

 

Was she drunk? Was she speeding? Did she run a red light, etc etc?

 

Just because someone died in a crash doesn't automatically mean the other party is criminally liable under the law (even if she didn't have diplomatic immunity).

 

Driving on the wrong side of the road when she hit him is a good start. Will find a link.

[Sujo]

2 hours ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 On the basis of what? (I'm asking, because, I don't know the pertinent details).

 

Was she drunk? Was she speeding? Did she run a red light, etc etc?

 

Just because someone died in a crash doesn't automatically mean the other party is criminally liable under the law (even if she didn't have diplomatic immunity).

 

She admitted driving on the wrong side of the road. Then told police she had no intention of leaving UK.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2019/12/20/american-diplomats-wife-be-charged-with-causing-death-by-dangerous-driving-case-year-old-british-man/

[IAMHERE]

A spy's wife shouldn't be given diplomatic immunity. Her husband and his coharts swing more than the usual clout. She didn't have immunity when she collided (not an accident when you drive 400 yards on the wrong side of the road) with that young mans motorcycle, it was decided afterwards that she probably had it so let her go. The UK should never have let her leave the country; only because her husband is a spook did they. How many diplomats live and do their jobs on RAF Croughton?

[No1]

5 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

Good, so we agree, she should be extradited and face charges related to her actions. 

We do. Also we both know that extradition won´t happen.

[Baerboxer]

6 hours ago, zydeco said:

"Back in 2005, Virginia police did their best imitation of Chris Hansen and set out to catch a predator. They set up a sting operation where they discovered a man in his 40s allegedly looking to have sex with a 13-year-old girl. The man drove for hours to meet her, promising to teach her about sex, but of course it was a trap and cops arrested the man. Yay! Victory for the good guys, right?

Wrong. Turns out the man, Salem Al-Mazrooei, was a diplomat from United Arab Emirates. The cops were forced to let the him go and a few days later, Al-Mazrooei returned to his country like nothing had happened."

 

 https://www.ranker.com/list/diplomatic-immunity/jacobybancroft

 

AFAIK, any country can waive an individuals diplomatic immunity depending on what crime that individual does. Or they can refuse and recall the person home and punish them or simply recall them home and relocate them.

 

It seems this lady is being managed by the US State department having only been given diplomatic immunity after the accident. If this is the case, then her husband must be important and the chances of extradition non existent.

 

 

[Sujo]

7 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

AFAIK, any country can waive an individuals diplomatic immunity depending on what crime that individual does. Or they can refuse and recall the person home and punish them or simply recall them home and relocate them.

 

It seems this lady is being managed by the US State department having only been given diplomatic immunity after the accident. If this is the case, then her husband must be important and the chances of extradition non existent.

 

 

Yeah how does that work. To get diplomatic immunity the local govt must agree. So how does she get it retroactively.

[DPKANKAN]

7 hours ago, Bluespunk said:

Really? And what exactly will bring a resolution for the family of Harry Dunn?

 

Her actions led to his death and she should face the consequences of them.

My understanding is she was driving on the wrong side of the road! More than just an 'accident'!!!????????????????

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 hours ago, Sujo said:

Driving on the wrong side of the road when she hit him is a good start. Will find a link.

 Thanks for adding that detail that wasn't mentioned in the OP article here.

 

I'll just note, for context purposes, that folks in the U.S. drive on the RIGHT side of the road, whereas folks in the UK drive on the LEFT side of the road.

 

And as one who's driven in both countries, I can vouch that it can be a bit disorienting to make the right-left driving shift, and sometimes, the ingrained driving habits one has grown up with tend to surface if you're not paying close attention.

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Newsweek had this additional detail in their report yesterday (which didn't mention anything about driving on the wrong side of the road):

 

Quote

Britain's Crown Prosecution Service CPS, which got a file on the case at the start of November, has said that immunity did not apply to dependents of consular officials outside of London and Sacoolas would be charged with death by dangerous driving, the BBC reported.

 

I have no idea where the CPS is getting the notion that diplomatic immunity is somehow limited and wouldn't apply to dependents of consular officials outside of London. The CPS may make that argument to the Foreign Office, but I doubt the U.S. is going to buy that interpretation. Nor should they.

 

https://www.newsweek.com/teen-killed-crash-u-s-diplomat-wife-charge-death-1478472

[cleopatra2]

50 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

AFAIK, any country can waive an individuals diplomatic immunity depending on what crime that individual does. Or they can refuse and recall the person home and punish them or simply recall them home and relocate them.

 

It seems this lady is being managed by the US State department having only been given diplomatic immunity after the accident. If this is the case, then her husband must be important and the chances of extradition non existent.

 

 

Her immunity derives from the secret agreement the UK and US entered in 1995 with regards RAF Croughton

[PJPom]

Digressing a little but showing the attitude of certain countries in protecting their people. Does anyone remember the Rainbow Warrior that was sunk in New Zealand by French agents with the death of one of the crew members. The NZ Police arrested the whole group of French agents and charged them with the offence, before they could be brought to trial France DEMANDED their release, NZ refused and France and the EU banned all trade with NZ effectively crippling their economy. NZ had to capitulate and a couple of the Agents ended up in French Polynesia supposedly in Custody to satisfy the outrage but actually living like kings.

My long winded point is that in no way will this Lady be returned to the UK against her will, America will protect its own and if you don’t like it........

[Monomial]

The crime "Dangerous Driving Causing Death" is basically the same as Vehicular Homocide in the USA.  This is a serious criminal action which basically requires showing malice, intent to kill or extremely gross negligence. In an accident like this, in the USA, at most she would be charged with Unintentional Vehicular Manslaughter. Still a crime, but much, much less serious, and likely carrying a punishment of just community service.

 

 

If the purpose of diplomatic immunity is to assure diplomats going overseas that they will continue to be judged by the laws of their own country rather than by the laws of the host country, then it is clear that there is no way the USA is going to agree to waive the immunity when she is facing such a charge.  As unfortunate as this incident was, the truth is that this woman, as a diplomat's wife, expects to be judged according to rules in the USA, not according to rules in the UK.

 

 

I'm not sure how to square the circle here.  I can definitely see both sides of this argument, and I think this is just going to be one of those issues that hopefully the family will be able to get over.

 

 

[SkyFax]

Well if pursuing criminal charges and extradition to the UK fails, and especially if the GoFundMe account gets big enough, maybe the family can sue in US civil court for 'wrongful death' where diplomatic immunity might not be at issue.

Edited December 21, 2019 by SkyFax

[malt25]

10 hours ago, pacovl46 said:

I wonder what she’d feel like if the same had happened to one of her kids in a foreign country and the culprit said “I’m not gonna come back to face a potential prison sentence for an unfortunate accident!”

 

Accident or not, you’re responsible Miss Diplomat! Therefore you need to bear the consequences! 

Miss Diplomat ?  Why does the wife of a diplomat have immunity ? Was she on the US payroll ? Or just as a wife ? Me thinks BIG difference. But, unfortunately the result will be the same.

[Acharn]

Reuters used to be better than this. The Sacoolas bloke is not a diplomat. He is a contract intelligence worker for NSA. As Craig Murray put it in his blog post, "Sacoolas works as an NSA technical officer at the communications interceptions post at “RAF Croughton”. His role is support to the interception of communications from British citizens." https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2019/10/jonathan-sacoolas-is-not-and-has-never-been-a-diplomat/comment-page-1/ Of course the American government spirited his wife out of the country rather than let her face the parents of the boy she killed. Americans must never be subject to the laws of the countries they are guests in. /sarc

[Isaanbiker]

She said she would not return voluntarily to face a potential jail sentence.

 

She should face the consequences. A young lad had to die because of her stupidity. No diplomat, she's only the wife of one.

 

   

[The Boss]

1 hour ago, rhyddid said:

Translated, it is not among our agreements, US citizen, after BS BJ election wins, got full immunity, they can kills, slash, do whatever they want in their colony namely UK .

 

You can't shine S**t. Same MUST apply the other way and ANYONE facing extradition to the US from UK should be denied.

Edited December 21, 2019 by The Boss
addition

[elliss]

12 hours ago, stevenl said:

With the UK being the USA's poodle, it could easily be 2 for 1.

 

    Will this affect , the fantastic trade deals , UK wait with eager from the USA ..

 

 

[DannyCarlton]

20 minutes ago, The Boss said:

You can't shine S**t. Same MUST apply the other way and ANYONE facing extradition to the US from UK should be denied.

She wasn't a diplomat. Her husband wasn't a diplomat. To claim diplomatic immunity in the UK you must already be registered as a diplomat with the Home Office who hold an official list of diplomats in the UK. Neither were on the list at the time of the accident.

[kingdong]

15 hours ago, Thechook said:

Being American doesn't put her above the law

Tell trump

[Pedrogaz]

The guy was an intelligence officer at a US Air Force base. This diplomat BS@** is nonsense. She had been in the country only 3 weeks, and so presumably didn't know on which side of the road to drive, and perhaps didn't;t have a license, almost certainly not a British/EU license. 

A British paper claimed she was tweeting at the time of the crash, which should be easy for the authorities to check up on, if it is true.

[JAG]

On 12/21/2019 at 10:46 AM, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

Just because someone died in a crash doesn't automatically mean the other party is criminally liable under the law (even if she didn't have diplomatic immunity).

That is why she should stand trial. To establish whether or not she is criminally liable.

[asiaexpat]

On 12/21/2019 at 7:24 AM, Thechook said:

Being American doesn't put her above the law

Being American is not the issue, diplomatic immunity is international law that applies to almost every country. That being said, it is sad that diplomatic immunity applies to all family members. I recall a Saudi man, son of a diplomat, that admitted to murder in USA but was allowed to return to his home country without charges. Empathy for the family is certainly due but will not change International law.