UK election result 'blew away' argument for second Brexit vote: Labour's Starmer

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Not according to most sources:

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1194673/angus-robertson-brexit-snp-nicola-sturgeon

The Express? Out of date anyway.

 

If you want to know whats actually happening.

 

https://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/how-would-you-vote-in-the-in-a-scottish-independence-referendum-if-held-now-ask/?removed

 

That site is run by John Curtice. Who knows a thing or two about polls.

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, vogie said:

Emily Thornbury said of the SNP "they are like the Tories in wrapped up in nationalist clothing" ????????????

What is it that you don't like - the SNP or Scotland making its own decisions?

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

What is it that you don't like - the SNP or Scotland making its own decisions?

And there lies the problem RR, Scotland has decided but the SNP doesn't like their decision, but having said all that, there is really no need to take all posts so seriously, it is as if the SNP is some sort of a cult and woe betide anyone who doesn't agree with that. 

There is more to worry about in Scotland than the leave leave leave mantra.

[TheDark]

21 minutes ago, vogie said:

And there lies the problem RR, Scotland has decided but the SNP doesn't like their decision, but having said all that, there is really no need to take all posts so seriously, it is as if the SNP is some sort of a cult and woe betide anyone who doesn't agree with that. 

There is more to worry about in Scotland than the leave leave leave mantra.

European Research Group ERG was a tiny minority in England, representing 10% of the population prior Brexit referendum and look what they managed to do. They managed to separate UK from the EU.

 

SNP is a political party, which represents far larger percentage of Scottish population. SNP will lead the way for independent Scotland, out of rulings of the oppressive unelected bureaucrats in Whitehall who have never really represented the Scottish people. 

 

 

[Forethat]

1 hour ago, sandyf said:

No problem with that, as long as you repay the north sea revenue that Maggie T gave away.

You only have to look at Norway to see how Westminster screwed things up.

 

When the North Sea was providing maximum income, Thatcher's chancellor, Nigel Lawson slashed income and other direct taxes, especially for the rich. The top rate of tax came down from 60p in the pound to just 40p by 1988. He also reduced the basic rate of income tax; but the poor wouldn't have seen much of those pounds in their pockets, as, thanks to the Tories, they were paying more VAT.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/13/north-sea-oil-money-uk-norwegians-fund

So, you are referring to an article covering a paper where it is concluded that each UK citizen could have had £13,000 in a pension fund in case the UK government HAD set aside oil and gas revenue?

 

May I remind you that using that very same principle, this time based on tax expenditure per person in Scotland each year, that each UK-citizen would have had £70,000 in a pension fund had we saved the difference between what is spent on each citizen in the rest of the Union (except Northern Ireland).

https://fullfact.org/economy/scotland-england-public-services-spending/

 

The way I see it, you can just hand back the difference before you leave. £57,000 per jock. 

[RuamRudy]

37 minutes ago, vogie said:

And there lies the problem RR, Scotland has decided but the SNP doesn't like their decision, but having said all that, there is really no need to take all posts so seriously, it is as if the SNP is some sort of a cult and woe betide anyone who doesn't agree with that. 

There is more to worry about in Scotland than the leave leave leave mantra.

I just wanted a bit of clarity as your main line of attack seems to me against the SNP rather than one of their primary objectives. 

 

But woe betide? That's a bit over egged, would you not agree? Nobody has, to the best of my knowledge, come close to expressing outrage when the SNP is ridiculed. Personally, I usually pick up on inconsistencies or inaccuracies and draw attention to them. If anyone wants to post photos of Jimmy Krankie or whatever, they are free to fill their boots. 

 

Of course, one of the other britnat tactics is to repeat the line that the SNP is a cult. Utter hogwash, of course, but repeat a lie often enough and it becomes 'fact'. 

Edited January 29, 2020 by RuamRudy

[vogie]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

I just wanted a bit of clarity as your main line of attack seems to me against the SNP rather than of their primary objectives. 

 

But woe betide? That's a bit over egged, would you not agree? Nobody has, to the best of my knowledge, come close to expressing outrage when the SNP is ridiculed. Personally, I usually pick up on inconsistencies or inaccuracies and draw attention to them. If anyone wants to post photos of Jimmy Krankie or whatever, they are free to fill their boots. 

   

Of course, one of the other britnat tactics is to repeat the line that the SNP is a cult. Utter hogwash, of course, but repeat a lie often enough and it becomes 'fact'. 

I just wanted a bit of clarity as your main line of attack seems to me against the SNP rather than of their primary objectives. 

 

And your line of attack is in nearly every one of your posts is to call our democratally elected government "the nasty party" well obviously you are in the minority there, why would you critisize someone when you yourself attack the UKs government, some balance would be very nice on occasion.

 

If anyone wants to post photos of Jimmy Krankie or whatever, they are free to fill their boots. 

 

Sorry RR, couldn't resist.????????????????

 

 

[RuamRudy]

22 minutes ago, vogie said:

I just wanted a bit of clarity as your main line of attack seems to me against the SNP rather than of their primary objectives. 

 

And your line of attack is in nearly every one of your posts is to call our democratally elected government "the nasty party" well obviously you are in the minority there, why would you critisize someone when you yourself attack the UKs government, some balance would be very nice on occasion.

 

If anyone wants to post photos of Jimmy Krankie or whatever, they are free to fill their boots. 

 

Sorry RR, couldn't resist.????????????????

 

 

Minority? The Tories only got a measly 43% of the votes last time round so I am happy to say that I, along with the majority of the UK electorate, rejected the nasty party. 

 

But I would be the first to hold my hands up and admit that I have lots of bile to dispense towards the tory party. Sadly, I am not nearly as eloquent as Aneurin Bevan. Some things never change, it would seem. 

"Do not listen to the seductions of Lord Woolton. He is a very good salesman. If you are selling shoddy stuff you have to be a good salesman. But I warn you they have not changed, or if they have they are slightly worse than they were." 

 

 

I have seen that photo a few times - I always thought Mr Angry looks very much like Gerry Adams. 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

Minority? The Tories only got a measly 43% of the votes last time round so I am happy to say that I, along with the majority of the UK electorate, rejected the nasty party. 

 

But I would be the first to hold my hands up and admit that I have lots of bile to dispense towards the tory party. Sadly, I am not nearly as eloquent as Aneurin Bevan. Some things never change, it would seem. 

"Do not listen to the seductions of Lord Woolton. He is a very good salesman. If you are selling shoddy stuff you have to be a good salesman. But I warn you they have not changed, or if they have they are slightly worse than they were." 

 

 

I have seen that photo a few times - I always thought Mr Angry looks very much like Gerry Adams. 

The Tories only got a "measly" 43% whilst the SNP got a gigantic, monumental and massive 45%, you've got to laugh.???????????? 

[TheDark]

49 minutes ago, vogie said:

The Tories only got a "measly" 43% whilst the SNP got a gigantic, monumental and massive 45%, you've got to laugh.???????????? 

The section of tories, ERG to be named,  got their wet dream through. Now everybody suffers, except them, the big bankers, who keep their profits out of the reach of the tax paying society. Not giving a pence. 

 

It's no wonder if other parts of the United Kingdom, wish no longer pay for the bankers high life. 

 

There will be division and it is well warranted. England can let the highflyers or oliargs scrap the cream of the cake. Scotland wishes to share the whole cake for the benefit of all residents. 

 

These are two different ideologies. Each entity can continue as they wish, as long as each entity can choose it's own destination. There is no reason for England to play by Soviet Russian playbook, trying to keep it's vassal states as its own property. 

 

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

The Express? Out of date anyway.

 

If you want to know whats actually happening.

 

https://whatscotlandthinks.org/questions/how-would-you-vote-in-the-in-a-scottish-independence-referendum-if-held-now-ask/?removed

 

That site is run by John Curtice. Who knows a thing or two about polls.

Also out of date, so what are you preaching? Curtice just knocked back the notion that a majority Scots wish to leave the UK.

 

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/5183514/indyref2-scotland-independence-john-curtice/

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1230231/Scottish-independence-referendum-Nicola-sturgeon-john-curtice-warning

[CG1 Blue]

24 minutes ago, TheDark said:

The section of tories, ERG to be named,  got their wet dream through. Now everybody suffers, except them, the big bankers, who keep their profits out of the reach of the tax paying society. Not giving a pence. 

 

It's no wonder if other parts of the United Kingdom, wish no longer pay for the bankers high life. 

 

There will be division and it is well warranted. England can let the highflyers or oliargs scrap the cream of the cake. Scotland wishes to share the whole cake for the benefit of all residents. 

 

These are two different ideologies. Each entity can continue as they wish, as long as each entity can choose it's own destination. There is no reason for England to play by Soviet Russian playbook, trying to keep it's vassal states as its own property. 

 

The ERG wanted us to leave the EU without a deal. So they didn't get what they wanted. It was the General Election that eventually allowed Brexit to proceed. A General Election in which the poorest cities and towns in the north gave Boris an 80 seat majority. Those northerners were certainly not voting for high flyers and oligarchs (if that's the word you were looking for). 

 

And as for your claim about Scotland wishing to share the whole cake for the benefit of all residents, yes this might be true for the Scottish people who traditionally voted Labour in the past. But it's not necessarily true of the SNP. The SNP are a nationalist / populist party - not really a leftist / socialist party. Some people mistakenly think of them as the latter, partly because they hate the Tories so much, and because they're good at rousing 'the people' against the enemy (Westminster) in a William Wallace style. 

 

Have a read of this:

 

The SNP’s progressive credentials don’t, in any case, stand up to serious scrutiny. When Sturgeon was asked at her manifesto launch to name a redistributive policy enacted by the SNP in Holyrood, she was unable to cite a single example. There has been plenty of middle class welfarism, but no effective measures to reduce inequality or poverty.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/04/if-you-think-snp-are-left-wing-force-think-again

 

 

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, TheDark said:

European Research Group ERG was a tiny minority in England, representing 10% of the population prior Brexit referendum and look what they managed to do. They managed to separate UK from the EU.

 

SNP is a political party, which represents far larger percentage of Scottish population. SNP will lead the way for independent Scotland, out of rulings of the oppressive unelected bureaucrats in Whitehall who have never really represented the Scottish people. 

 

 

Sounds just like Ian Blackford. You guys related?

[RuamRudy]

2 hours ago, vogie said:

The Tories only got a "measly" 43% whilst the SNP got a gigantic, monumental and massive 45%, you've got to laugh.???????????? 

One is bigger than the other... 

[vogie]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

One is bigger than the other... 

You would need a feeler gauge, or on the other hand if we counted the electorate that voted for the Tories or the SNP I feel sure that the Tories would have more crosses on the ballet paper than the SNP.

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Also out of date, so what are you preaching? Curtice just knocked back the notion that a majority Scots wish to leave the UK.

 

https://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/5183514/indyref2-scotland-independence-john-curtice/

 

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1230231/Scottish-independence-referendum-Nicola-sturgeon-john-curtice-warning

The Sun and the express.

 

Seriously start reading news sources which are not an echo chamber for your views. You might actually learn something.

[evadgib]

An interesting article in the Times is repeated here & might be of interest to this board.

 

(Content not poster to the usual culprits please!)

[TheDark]

59 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

The ERG wanted us to leave the EU without a deal. So they didn't get what they wanted. It was the General Election that eventually allowed Brexit to proceed. A General Election in which the poorest cities and towns in the north gave Boris an 80 seat majority. Those northerners were certainly not voting for high flyers and oligarchs (if that's the word you were looking for). 

 

And as for your claim about Scotland wishing to share the whole cake for the benefit of all residents, yes this might be true for the Scottish people who traditionally voted Labour in the past. But it's not necessarily true of the SNP. The SNP are a nationalist / populist party - not really a leftist / socialist party. Some people mistakenly think of them as the latter, partly because they hate the Tories so much, and because they're good at rousing 'the people' against the enemy (Westminster) in a William Wallace style. 

 

Have a read of this:

 

The SNP’s progressive credentials don’t, in any case, stand up to serious scrutiny. When Sturgeon was asked at her manifesto launch to name a redistributive policy enacted by the SNP in Holyrood, she was unable to cite a single example. There has been plenty of middle class welfarism, but no effective measures to reduce inequality or poverty.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/04/if-you-think-snp-are-left-wing-force-think-again

 

 

I'm afraid ERG manipulated you as they manipulated the whole discussion. 

 

ERG did a brilliant job and they got what they wanted. Freedom from banking sector scrutiny. Freedom of government not being able to check where the moneys of the rich are been placed. Freedom of paying taxes for rich individuals. 

You won this 'game'. You were the big player on this 'game'. 

 

Do enjoy your victory. I can only assume that you are one of the beneficiaries, who actually got some millions to yourself. That's what the other beneficiaries got to themselves anyway.

 

If you didn't make millions, do ask yourself, why?

 

 

[Rookiescot]

We are truly through the looking glass now when Brexiteers use sources like the Sun, Express and New Statesman to try and back up their points.

Fact is guys we dont need your permission and we dont really care what you think.

This is a matter for the people of Scotland to decide and I know you all feel like Scotland is a possession of Engurlund but its really not.

So you can all spit phlegm at the monitor or just accept that the union is effectively over. It died the day you guys voted for Brexit.

So man up and face the consequences of your actions.

Lets get on with it. 

[CG1 Blue]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

We are truly through the looking glass now when Brexiteers use sources like the Sun, Express and New Statesman to try and back up their points.

Fact is guys we dont need your permission and we dont really care what you think.

This is a matter for the people of Scotland to decide and I know you all feel like Scotland is a possession of Engurlund but its really not.

So you can all spit phlegm at the monitor or just accept that the union is effectively over. It died the day you guys voted for Brexit.

So man up and face the consequences of your actions.

Lets get on with it. 

As I've said before, I have no objections to the Scottish people gaining their independence, if that's what the majority of Scots want. 

Unfortunately for you (and other Scottish Nationalists), you won't be getting your 2nd referendum at least until Brexit negotiations are done and dusted. That's just the reality. 

 

Can you imagine negotiating trade arrangements with the EU, while at the same time dealing with Scotland's possible departure from the UK? It's just not going to happen. 

 

[TheDark]

10 minutes ago, CG1 Blue said:

As I've said before, I have no objections to the Scottish people gaining their independence, if that's what the majority of Scots want. 

Unfortunately for you (and other Scottish Nationalists), you won't be getting your 2nd referendum at least until Brexit negotiations are done and dusted. That's just the reality. 

 

Can you imagine negotiating trade arrangements with the EU, while at the same time dealing with Scotland's possible departure from the UK? It's just not going to happen. 

 

Is there benefit for you or other English people  to keep Scottish people under your manipulative umbrella?

 

Why aren't the freedom loving English people supporting Scottish people to say, who the Scottish people want to be in the future when the UK surrendered her power towards EU.

Why not just let the Scottish people be free?

 

[CG1 Blue]

26 minutes ago, TheDark said:

Is there benefit for you or other English people  to keep Scottish people under your manipulative umbrella?

 

Why aren't the freedom loving English people supporting Scottish people to say, who the Scottish people want to be in the future when the UK surrendered her power towards EU.

Why not just let the Scottish people be free?

 

I am not keeping the Scottish people under any umbrella. The English and Scots entered a union back in 1707, of their own free will. The Scots voted to stay in that union in 2014. 

The Scots will probably get another chance to vote on independence after Brexit is done and dusted.

 

That's IF the majority of Scottish people want independence. Not if TheDark has decided the Scottish people want independence...

 

[Rookiescot]

6 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

As I've said before, I have no objections to the Scottish people gaining their independence, if that's what the majority of Scots want. 

Unfortunately for you (and other Scottish Nationalists), you won't be getting your 2nd referendum at least until Brexit negotiations are done and dusted. That's just the reality. 

 

Can you imagine negotiating trade arrangements with the EU, while at the same time dealing with Scotland's possible departure from the UK? It's just not going to happen. 

 

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18196494.holyrood-votes-favour-second-independence-referendum/

 

We dont need your permission.

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/18196494.holyrood-votes-favour-second-independence-referendum/

 

We dont need your permission.

Poll the entire Kingdom & get the job done! ????

[RuamRudy]

29 minutes ago, evadgib said:

Poll the entire Kingdom & get the job done! ????

Forget the UK, why won't your countrymen stand up for England? Instead of this passive aggressiveness, be proactive and actively campaign for England to leave the UK. 

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, evadgib said:

Poll the entire Kingdom & get the job done! ????

Its not your business.

Was the entire EU given a vote in Brexit?

[melvinmelvin]

32 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Its not your business.

Was the entire EU given a vote in Brexit?

I wish you would stick with your first sentence.

 

The EU bit just dillutes the issue and invite irrelevant comments.

 

EU has nothing to do with this.

 

 

[Rookiescot]

11 minutes ago, melvinmelvin said:

I wish you would stick with your first sentence.

 

The EU bit just dillutes the issue and invite irrelevant comments.

 

EU has nothing to do with this.

 

 

Just pointing out more Brexiteer hypocrisy. 

[sandyf]

21 hours ago, CG1 Blue said:

The general trend on here has been for the pro-indi Scots to suggest that a referendum should happen asap because the majority in Scotland want independence. If that's not what you've been saying then I'm happy to apologise. 

Apology accepted, and in response to this comment

 

"I don't think it's right to assume they would sacrifice the union in order to get back into the EU. Some would, some wouldn't." 

 

Nobody should assume anything so it is fairly obvious that a referendum is required asap to determine the way forward.

It is also fairly obvious from PMQ's that Bojo has a paranoid hatred of the SNP so he will be out to inflict as much damage as possible, Scotland does need to move quickly.

[evadgib]

4 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Just pointing out more Brexiteer hypocrisy. 

Hypocrisy that would guarantee SNP achieved their aim at the first attempt? What could they possibly fear? ????