How do I get my 400,000 baht back?

[CNXexpat]

I loaned a (former) friend 400,000 baht to get his company up and running. Ok, actually his Thai wife who owns 51% of the company. Security was a 25% stake in the company. Shortly thereafter, they considered to do health insurance brokerage and bought office equipment from the money and rented an office.

 

A few months later, the two quarreled, he moved abroad and she from Chiang Mai to Phuket, where she continues to sell insurance.

As I found out, the commissions are not settled through the company, so I don't get a 25% share of the profit.

 

Does anyone have any idea what I can do to get my money back? Is a police report helpful?

 

If there is no chance to get my money back, what would hurt but not kill me, is there any chance to make her so many problems as possible?

Edited January 10, 2020 by CNXexpat

[scottiddled]

Let's start with a clear post. You lent a friend 400,000 baht and invested in his company.

 

They considered to do? What?

 

From what I can tell (which isn't much), you aren't happen with how the company processes the profits (i.e. you aren't getting a dividend)? If so, good luck. Police certainly won't get involved. Do you have any documentation? Seems like the best you could hope for would be a lawsuit, but it's hard to tell with this lack of detail.

[CNXexpat]

17 minutes ago, scottiddled said:

Let's start with a clear post. You lent a friend 400,000 baht and invested in his company.

 

They considered to do? What?

 

From what I can tell (which isn't much), you aren't happen with how the company processes the profits (i.e. you aren't getting a dividend)? If so, good luck. Police certainly won't get involved. Do you have any documentation? Seems like the best you could hope for would be a lawsuit, but it's hard to tell with this lack of detail.

He wanted to buy healthy plants, dry them with a dryer he owns at his former home in Suphanburi and sell them to customers he has in Europe. The plan was good and I saw all documents. The problem was, that he changed his decision and started the insurance business where, what he thought, can make more money. Because the 25% only, I couldn´t force him to do the business for what I paid.

[OneMoreFarang]

Short version: Forget it! The money is gone and you won't see it again.

 

And I mean forget it including forget doing anything against the Thai women. Because she is in a much better position to create trouble for you compared what you can do for her. Imagine you will do something where she loses face big time? Do you think she will understand that you are right and she is wrong and that's it? 555

 

FORGET IT!

[mstevens]

You do have a chance to get the money back, but it might take some time and effort to do so.

 

First of all, if you invested money in the business and you received all of the correct documentation, and the business later went tits up because of mismanagement then there is, realistically, very little you can do. It would simply be considered a bad investment.

 

If, however, you lent the money to them and have proof of the transaction i.e. a bank transfer, then you could file a claim for the return of the money. There are all sorts of options here but you will probably need a lawyer to assist you - and lawyers cost $$, obviously. It IS worth pursuing. Let the lawyer do all the work.

 

 

[CNXexpat]

8 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

Short version: Forget it! The money is gone and you won't see it again.

 

And I mean forget it including forget doing anything against the Thai women. Because she is in a much better position to create trouble for you compared what you can do for her. Imagine you will do something where she loses face big time? Do you think she will understand that you are right and she is wrong and that's it? 555

 

FORGET IT!

Well, my Thai wife is at the end the owner of the 25% of the company, not me. And the other lady is living on Phuket, too far away to make us daily problems. I/my wife could start with asking the tax office what about the taxes of the company because she made profits with the commissions by example. My wife can also make a report at the police. The worst thing what can happen is that nothing happens. We could ask the insurance company what about the company and the commission to give her a bad reputation and so on. 

[CNXexpat]

4 minutes ago, mstevens said:

If, however, you lent the money to them and have proof of the transaction i.e. a bank transfer, then you could file a claim for the return of the money.

It happens more than one year ago. I think I can´t get money back from the bank.

 

5 minutes ago, mstevens said:

Let the lawyer do all the work.

Yes, that´s the last and most expensive option. I can make a 50/50 deal with him - if he will get the 400,000 Baht back, he´ll get 200,000. Better than to get nothing for me. 

[FritsSikkink]

Lived in Phuket for a while and have connections, PM me if you need help. Won't be for free.

[mstevens]

8 minutes ago, CNXexpat said:

It happens more than one year ago. I think I can´t get money back from the bank.

 

Yes, that´s the last and most expensive option. I can make a 50/50 deal with him - if he will get the 400,000 Baht back, he´ll get 200,000. Better than to get nothing for me. 

 

Sorry, I didn't mean file a claim with the bank. What I meant was if there was a bank transfer i.e. PROOF that a transfer of funds was made, that is clear evidence of the money being given to them that could be used in your claim against these people.

[Happy Grumpy]

12 minutes ago, CNXexpat said:

Yes, that´s the last and most expensive option. I can make a 50/50 deal with him - if he will get the 400,000 Baht back, he´ll get 200,000. Better than to get nothing for me. 

 

Gotta feeling the lawyer won't succeed, and you'll end up legally owing him 200k. ????

[CNXexpat]

4 minutes ago, Happy Grumpy said:

 

Gotta feeling the lawyer won't succeed, and you'll end up legally owing him 200k. ????

The salary would be a 50% commission. If he is not successful, I would own him nothing.

[OneMoreFarang]

26 minutes ago, CNXexpat said:

The worst thing what can happen is that nothing happens.

That is the part which I am not so sure about.

Sure, you can call here and there to create problems. But she can do the same. And I think as a foreigner in Thailand you are more exposed to bad things which might happen to you.

Is that fair? Obviously not. Can it happen? Maybe, do you really want to find out?

[CNXexpat]

3 minutes ago, OneMoreFarang said:

And I think as a foreigner in Thailand

I gave the money but my wife is the business partner. All on her name. So it´s a Thai vs. Thai thing. I am in the background.

[Puccini]

1 hour ago, CNXexpat said:

...Security was a 25% stake in the company...

Are you saying that you have a valid share certificate showing that you own 25% or the company's shares?

[Mick501]

28 minutes ago, CNXexpat said:

The salary would be a 50% commission. If he is not successful, I would own him nothing.

Getting legal advice seems the only (sensible) solution.  Great if you can do it on a no win, no fee basis and a % of the proceeds as payment upon success.   You should be able to get opinions on the chances of success for free.

 

Couple of things to consider - Given your former buddy is out of the picture, does she actually have the money to pay in the event the court makes an order? Also, bounce off the lawyer whether you could be liable for her legal costs in the event she wins.

 

good luck.

Edited January 10, 2020 by Mick501

[ezzra]

2 hours ago, Mick501 said:

Getting legal advice seems the only (sensible) solution.  Great if you can do it on a no win, no fee basis and a % of the proceeds as payment upon success.   You should be able to get opinions on the chances of success for free.

 

Couple of things to consider - Given your former buddy is out of the picture, does she actually have the money to pay in the event the court makes an order? Also, bounce off the lawyer whether you could be liable for her legal costs in the event she wins.

 

good luck.

Speaking from extensive experiences trying to recover monies from similar situation one need to know that unless there is an ironclad contract between the parties that outline all the above and that monies indeed were lent for such purposes and all the I's and T's were recorded correctly, you can engage a lawyer to sue them but the distance are a problem, no lawyer will work no fees and commissions only, so his fees will be in the high 10's of thousands and will have to pay court fees and wait up to 2 years to get to the court and unless the defendant has money or properties to which you can be awarded restitution if you win the case, your chances of seeing your money back are nest to zero, such are the laws in Thailand where recovering your money is hard and costly...

[RJRS1301]

4 hours ago, CNXexpat said:

Well, my Thai wife is at the end the owner of the 25% of the company, not me. And the other lady is living on Phuket, too far away to make us daily problems. I/my wife could start with asking the tax office what about the taxes of the company because she made profits with the commissions by example. My wife can also make a report at the police. The worst thing what can happen is that nothing happens. We could ask the insurance company what about the company and the commission to give her a bad reputation and so on. 

Perhaps seek legal advice, send a letter and be prepared to take the loss, and see it as a lesson learned.

Take revenge will be a hollow victory and reflect badly on you and your wife, be a better person

Edited January 10, 2020 by RJRS1301

[neeray]

It may just be that details are missing in the "story telling" but this sounds like it was a loosey, goosy deal probably put together more on a hand shake over a few beers as compared to real business contract. And the partners don't sound all that scrupulous.

As already pointed out by others, any form of retribution effort may end up hurting you more than them.

Sorry to say but I think you've just had a 400,000 baht lesson in partnerships (and friendships).

[saengd]

I've had offers of similar investment deals come my way via wife and family from time to time over the years. I ended up building a death ray which instantly zaps the person mentioning such things and the family knows it, it worked well for me.

[1FinickyOne]

It sounds to me like you invested in one company that was not successful and is now closed and they are doing something else entirely. In that case, your investment could be considered lost. 

 

If you can get a lawyer to take it on a contingency basis, then nothing to lose, but I think if above is correct, nobody will waste their time. 

 

I would not recommend malicious action. People do that thinking that it will not come back to them. It usually does. 

 

good luck to you. 

[rebelplatoon]

Main question is: is the contract waterproof and also personal? Are they still under the same company name? 

If it's an investment and the original company has gone under. There's no way to get any back. In fact, in that case you might even be liable for owed debts. 

If it's still under the same company name, and they're making money you might have a slim chance but it will cost money and time to get it back. 

[kingdong]

Take the debt out the wife's snatchpiece.

[JAFO]

Well as Neeray and KenK24 stated, I would call this a lesson learned and move on. The angst you will create for yourself and your wife are likely not worth it. The sooner you let it go, the sooner things will be forgotten and you will look back on it and maybe laugh how it all happened.  

[BritManToo]

8 hours ago, CNXexpat said:

Does anyone have any idea what I can do to get my money back? Is a police report helpful?

Not worth it for 400k IMHO just forget it and move on.

I lost 4x that to two (former) friends who ran the expats club.

Never trust anyone you meet in Thailand (especially expats), I don't even tell expats where I live anymore, they nearly always cause trouble.

Edited January 11, 2020 by BritManToo

[neeray]

2 minutes ago, JAFO said:

Well as Neeray and KenK24 stated, I would call this a lesson learned and move on. The angst you will create for yourself and your wife are likely not worth it. The sooner you let it go, the sooner things will be forgotten and you will look back on it and maybe laugh how it all happened.  

And @JAFO, those three little words are very applicable here, "GET OVER IT".

 

(BTW .... About the same amount of baht as one year of business school)

[VocalNeal]

8 hours ago, CNXexpat said:

I loaned a (former) friend 400,000 baht to get his company up and running. Ok, actually his Thai wife who owns 51% of the company. Security was a 25% stake in the company.

If I read correctly it was a loan? 

You got 25% of the company but that would be 25% from the 49% he owned as Thai has to be 51%. So technically not from your friend's wife's 51%. Unless she is now claiming 100% as he has left. In which case it should be you 25%, her 75%. If it is in writing.

 

I'd say take a deep breath have a drink and move on.

[whiteman]

Learn you would be very lucky to have friends over here in Thailand especially in business.  One should keep your head down and not make any waves.

 

I have been here 15 years and it works for me.

[jackdd]

You say you loaned her 400k, and the security was 25% of the company.

So she was supposed to pay you back the 400k over time and you would have given the 25% of the company back?

Or did you actually invest 400k into this company?

[Mick501]

6 hours ago, ezzra said:

Speaking from extensive experiences trying to recover monies from similar situation one need to know that unless there is an ironclad contract between the parties that outline all the above and that monies indeed were lent for such purposes and all the I's and T's were recorded correctly, you can engage a lawyer to sue them but the distance are a problem, no lawyer will work no fees and commissions only, so his fees will be in the high 10's of thousands and will have to pay court fees and wait up to 2 years to get to the court and unless the defendant has money or properties to which you can be awarded restitution if you win the case, your chances of seeing your money back are nest to zero, such are the laws in Thailand where recovering your money is hard and costly...

I have a lawyer working on a case at the moment which is no win, no fee.   He obviously believes in the prospects of the case.   Maybe just got lucky there.

[CNXexpat]

6 hours ago, neeray said:

It may just be that details are missing in the "story telling" but this sounds like it was a loosey, goosy deal probably put together more on a hand shake over a few beers as compared to real business contract.

No, there is a contract that my wife owns 25% of the company for the 400k Baht. Not only a hand shake.

 

5 hours ago, kenk24 said:

It sounds to me like you invested in one company that was not successful and is now closed and they are doing something else entirely. In that case, your investment could be considered lost. 

The company is still alive. But she made her money without involving the company as an insurance agent. But our invested money was used to buy furniture and so on to bring the insurance selling to life.

 

2 hours ago, rebelplatoon said:

Main question is: is the contract waterproof and also personal? Are they still under the same company name? 

If it's an investment and the original company has gone under. There's no way to get any back. In fact, in that case you might even be liable for owed debts. 

If it's still under the same company name, and they're making money you might have a slim chance but it will cost money and time to get it back. 

I think the contract is waterproof and the company is still existing. The 75% owner is making her money without involving the company.

 

2 hours ago, VocalNeal said:

If I read correctly it was a loan? 

You got 25% of the company but that would be 25% from the 49% he owned as Thai has to be 51%. So technically not from your friend's wife's 51%. Unless she is now claiming 100% as he has left. In which case it should be you 25%, her 75%. If it is in writing.

 

I'd say take a deep breath have a drink and move on.

Yes, I (better: my wife) got 25% of the company but, as written above, now she earns her money without involving the company.

 

9 hours ago, Puccini said:

Are you saying that you have a valid share certificate showing that you own 25% or the company's shares?

Yes, my wife has.

 

1 hour ago, jackdd said:

You say you loaned her 400k, and the security was 25% of the company.

So she was supposed to pay you back the 400k over time and you would have given the 25% of the company back?

Or did you actually invest 400k into this company?

I guess I named it wrong. I (my wife) invested 25% in the company, but the 75% owner makes her money now without involving the company. See my comment above.