Non B extension denied

[Megolith]

Hi

 

For my non-B investment visa which I have extended for a few years now, I used to have B6M in a condo and B4M in a fixed term deposit account at Bangkok Bank to come to the required B10M investment. This year I use the B4M to buy another condo and still have more than B10M invested in Thailand.

 

At my latest extension attempt at CW, the IO told me that it was not permissible to change assets under a non-B investment visa because every year she had written the assets and amounts on the extension page of my passport. She said when I used the money from the fixed interest account for the new condo my extension was immediately invalid, that I was now on overstay and that she would write a report to the investigations team to have me detained and deported.

 

I argued with her a lot. That I still met the visa requirements for amount invested per the law. That whoever drafted the investment visa rules wanted to attract people to invest in Thailand and not have some petty bureaucrat interpret them in such a small minded illogical way. That most people with assets change them over time. And that the investment visa is useless if someone is going to get deported for moving money from one valid asset to another valid asset.

 

So she said in my case she wanted to help me. I should leave the country within 10 days, get a new passport so the old visa cannot be seen by the immigration official, come back on a visa exempt and apply for a new non-B based on the two condos instead of one condo plus savings. 

 

I have the following questions

- Would I really needs to get a new passport? If I wait until the old visa has expired, and come back on a visa exempt or tourist visa would it be a problem. Or would there be something in the immigration computer system about my current passport number?

- For people on a non-O retirement visa, if they go below B800,000/B400,000 in their account does the same thing happen... their extension is immediately invalid and they can be deported for being on overstay and have to go out get a new passport?

 

Thanks 

Edited January 30, 2020 by Megolith

[ubonjoe]

The requirements for the 10 million baht are not that clear. I think they wrong about not being able to do it due to changing the ratio of the investment between a condo purchase and the remainder in the bank.

It could be the real problem is that the 2nd condo did not meet the requirements. What it a newly built condo?

You have to leave the country prior to when you current extension ends or you would be on a ovestay. Making changes to your investment does not void out your extension as long as it remains 10 million baht or more.

[elviajero]

1 hour ago, Megolith said:

Would I really needs to get a new passport? If I wait until the old visa has expired, and come back on a visa exempt or tourist visa would it be a problem. Or would there be something in the immigration computer system about my current passport number?

I don’t see how a new passport helps. It would almost certainly be linked to the old one on the first entry.

 

1 hour ago, Megolith said:

For people on a non-O retirement visa, if they go below B800,000/B400,000 in their account does the same thing happen... their extension is immediately invalid and they can be deported for being on overstay and have to go out get a new passport?

I haven’t heard of it happening yet; however, it could and probably will as the rules stand.

[elviajero]

51 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

Making changes to your investment does not void out your extension as long as it remains 10 million baht or more.

Of course it does/can. Your permit is based on a specific investment.

[ubonjoe]

39 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Of course it does/can. Your permit is based on a specific investment.

No it is not. It is the same 10 million baht investment. Spending the money in the bank to buy a new condo or moving it to government bonds does not make it less than 10 million baht.

You also left out this when you quoted my post.

"It could be the real problem is that the 2nd condo did not meet the requirements. Was it a newly built condo?"

[stevenl]

43 minutes ago, elviajero said:

I don’t see how a new passport helps. It would almost certainly be linked to the old one on the first entry.

 

I haven’t heard of it happening yet; however, it could and probably will as the rules stand.

Op says " every year she had written the assets and amounts on the extension page of my passport. ", so a new passport would be good to get rid of that information.

[elviajero]

2 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

No it is not. It is the same 10 million baht investment. Spending the money in the bank to buy a new condo or moving it to government bonds does not make it less than 10 million baht.

You also left out this when you quoted my post.

"It could be the real problem is that the 2nd condo did not meet the requirements. Was it a newly built condo?"

Your quote contradicts your claim and proves it wrong. 

 

You apply based on a specific investment vehicle that has to be approved and maintained. If you buy a 10M condo and sell it, it invalidates the permit. You would then have to apply for a new permit based on the bonds or other new investment vehicle. 
 

It’s no different to changing a job, wife, or school, etc.

Edited January 30, 2020 by elviajero

[elviajero]

2 hours ago, stevenl said:

Op says " every year she had written the assets and amounts on the extension page of my passport. ", so a new passport would be good to get rid of that information.

Sure, however I don’t see how that note affects future new applications. 

[FritsSikkink]

2 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

No it is not. It is the same 10 million baht investment. Spending the money in the bank to buy a new condo or moving it to government bonds does not make it less than 10 million baht.

You also left out this when you quoted my post.

"It could be the real problem is that the 2nd condo did not meet the requirements. Was it a newly built condo?"

It is NOT the same investment. The amount is the same but the investment is not.

Edited January 30, 2020 by FritsSikkink

[ubonjoe]

28 minutes ago, elviajero said:

Your quote contradicts your claim and proves it wrong. 

How? I was just stating another reason for it to be denied.

[ubonjoe]

22 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

It is NOT the same investment. The amount is the same but the investment is not.

There is nothing that states it alway has to be the same investment for every extension application.

That would be like saying you had to keep the money in the same bank account forever.

Requirements for it are here. https://division1.immigration.go.th/content/Visa_Extension5

[Maestro]

6 hours ago, Megolith said:

...At my latest extension attempt at CW, the IO told me that it was not permissible to change assets under a non-B investment visa because every year she had written the assets and amounts on the extension page of my passport...

 

I wonder if it is standard procedure for the immigration official to record the details of the investment in the passport with every one-year extension.

[elviajero]

3 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

How? I was just stating another reason for it to be denied.

You stated the following:

7 hours ago, elviajero said:

Making changes to your investment does not void out your extension as long as it remains 10 million baht or more.

I am correcting you because you cannot make changes to your investment during the extension period. 

 

The IO is, rightly, telling the OP that using the money invested in the bank to buy another Condo invalidated the current extension, and that she could retrospectively cancel the permit putting them in an overstay situation. Rather than do that she is suggesting he leaves the country to end the current permit and start again.

 

3 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

There is nothing that states it alway has to be the same investment for every extension application.

Correct. But that is not the issue. 

 

3 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

That would be like saying you had to keep the money in the same bank account forever.

Requirements for it are here. https://division1.immigration.go.th/content/Visa_Extension5

The money the OP had invested in the bank for the current extension must stay there for the the duration of the extension. Once it's ended they can do what they like with the money.

[Megolith]

Thanks for the responses.  The second condo is a newly built one so still valid as an investment for the visa.

 

However, the IO mentioned that they had discussed my case in a meeting between the first and second time I went there (they sent me to get an additional document) and decided that I had invalidated the extension because I had changed assets. Even though the assets are still valid and meet the minimum requirement of 10M.

 

Her reasoning was that she had specified the bank account number with funds in my passport. And that if people changed their funds between assets, immigration would not be able to keep track of it.

 

I would be surprised if this is the intent of the policy. That people who got an investment visa could never change their assets or risk being deported/have to get a new passport. No-one would get an investment visa if that were the case.

 

It just seems like their interpretation of how to implement the law is very strict and to make their lives easier, but not fulfil the original aim of the policy to attract investment.

 

And I'm still not sure whether I need to get a new passport or not. She said I should but I'm not sure if she assumed I would come back within the period of the visa extension. In fact I won't come back until after the end date. 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Megolith

[BigFun]

On 1/30/2020 at 10:37 AM, elviajero said:

Of course it does/can. Your permit is based on a specific investment.

Specific amount of investment. My guess is she misinterpreted the rule, and probably doesnt know how to reprocess with the new asset instead of money in bank. It seems mist immigration have very little in the way it training/teaching of the actual rules. 

[BigFun]

17 hours ago, Megolith said:

Thanks for the responses.  The second condo is a newly built one so still valid as an investment for the visa.

 

However, the IO mentioned that they had discussed my case in a meeting between the first and second time I went there (they sent me to get an additional document) and decided that I had invalidated the extension because I had changed assets. Even though the assets are still valid and meet the minimum requirement of 10M.

 

Her reasoning was that she had specified the bank account number with funds in my passport. And that if people changed their funds between assets, immigration would not be able to keep track of it.

 

I would be surprised if this is the intent of the policy. That people who got an investment visa could never change their assets or risk being deported/have to get a new passport. No-one would get an investment visa if that were the case.

 

It just seems like their interpretation of how to implement the law is very strict and to make their lives easier, but not fulfil the original aim of the policy to attract investment.

 

And I'm still not sure whether I need to get a new passport or not. She said I should but I'm not sure if she assumed I would come back within the period of the visa extension. In fact I won't come back until after the end date. 

 

 

Exactly, the amount changed...but the money remains here, which is still an investment. Seems they are picking holes due to it making their processing more difficult. Hardly difficult accounting to be done to give the required evidence required.

[Ventenio]

On 1/30/2020 at 8:58 AM, Megolith said:

I argued with her a lot.

I think most members know how this one will turn out....we have all, well, almost all, learned.  

[Suradit69]

On January 30, 2020 at 8:58 AM, Megolith said:

She said when I used the money from the fixed interest account for the new condo my extension was immediately invalid, that I was now on overstay and that she would write a report to the investigations team to have me detained and deported.

This reasoning would seem to apply (or could be applicable) for people on a retirement extension using 800k and who plan to switch to the income method for their next extension.

 

Some posters have opined that you could pull the 800 k out of the bank or at least let your balance fall below 400 k since you won't need it for your next extension.

 

The problem is that the 800 k for three months and 400 k for the rest of the year are conditions set for the extension you currently have using the money in the bank method.

 

Regardless of what you plan to do for your next extension , if your bank balance falls below the minimum for your current extension, the current extension would be cancelled and you would have put yourself on overstay

[ubonjoe]

18 minutes ago, soisanuk said:

Does this mean it can be 3 million instead of 10 million?

It was done away with. It still shown as a grandfathering clause for those that had one before 2006.

"  (2) Must have entered the Kingdom before October 1, 2006 and must have been consecutively
        permitted to stay in the Kingdom for an investment of no less than Baht 3 million;"

[elviajero]

6 hours ago, BigFun said:

On 1/30/2020 at 3:37 AM, elviajero said:

Of course it does/can. Your permit is based on a specific investment.

Specific amount of investment. My guess is she misinterpreted the rule, and probably doesnt know how to reprocess with the new asset instead of money in bank. It seems mist immigration have very little in the way it training/teaching of the actual rules. 

No. It's a specific type of investment for a minimum amount. If the type of investment changes the permit is void and a new permit needs to be applied for for the new investment type/amount.

[Maestro]

Removed an off-topic post.

[Megolith]

12 hours ago, Suradit69 said:

This reasoning would seem to apply (or could be applicable) for people on a retirement extension using 800k and who plan to switch to the income method for their next extension.

 

Some posters have opined that you could pull the 800 k out of the bank or at least let your balance fall below 400 k since you won't need it for your next extension.

 

The problem is that the 800 k for three months and 400 k for the rest of the year are conditions set for the extension you currently have using the money in the bank method.

 

Regardless of what you plan to do for your next extension , if your bank balance falls below the minimum for your current extension, the current extension would be cancelled and you would have put yourself on overstay

On the top of the Non-O visa application it says if you have overstayed you are not allowed to apply for a Non-O.

 

So then anyone whose extension is cancelled by their bank balance going below the limit would not be able to top up and apply again.

 

Wondered if anyone can confirm whether this is the case? And how long does immigration keep records of overstay?

 

Thanks

 

[ubonjoe]

9 hours ago, Megolith said:

On the top of the Non-O visa application it says if you have overstayed you are not allowed to apply for a Non-O.

That means if you are on a ovestay you cannot apply for the non immigrant visa. Not sure when they put it in there.

[Megolith]

3 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

That means if you are on a ovestay you cannot apply for the non immigrant visa. Not sure when they put it in there.

That makes sense. Thanks.