Is it standard that an electrician would silcon the gaps at the end of a job

[advancebooking]

We were referred to an electrician from our builder. When meeting him we asked how many yrs he had been doing the job. He said 20. 

 

We drew a plan (on the 4th floor) outlining all the powerpoints, switches and lights etc. Price was agreed. We made him sign a short 'agreement' (contract) including how much he would be paid at each stage of the work. I didnt think to include the very final step of filling the gaps with silicon at the end of the job. 

 

As it turned out he didnt do any of the work and my wife said he must be a 'manager'. He sub contracted the job to a couple of younger guys. One did some very shoddy work in an area and I asked them to fix it. I said I wanted the job done by Sunday and despite time being tight he refused to help them. 

 

At teh end of the job he basically said its the painters job to slicone the gaps. he said 'they will do a better job than us'. It made me a bit angry to be honest.

 

We paid him and later mentioned we will not be using him for any other work in our building. Back home the sparkie will fill the gaps 100% the norm. Do you agree its the same over here? I was surprised by this guys attitude or am I being too fussy?

 

Finally.... if I use acrylic silicon on the gaps... can I go and put latex (water based) paints on the plastic mounts that cover the wires? The concrete walls have had the 1st coat of sealer and primer paint. Ready for 2 coats of dulux. Can dulux be painted on the plastic mounts that you see in the photos? thanks

Edited February 27, 2020 by advancebooking

[CGW]

10 minutes ago, advancebooking said:

Back home the sparkie will fill the gaps 100% the norm. Do you agree its the same over here? I was surprised by this guys attitude or am I being too fussy?

Your not back home! Thai standards are not the same, as an example I do most "DIY" jobs myself, not because i wont to purely due to the fact it is so difficult to find someone to do a job to a standard that I find acceptable.

[sometimewoodworker]

29 minutes ago, advancebooking said:

At teh end of the job he basically said its the painters job to slicone the gaps. he said 'they will do a better job than us'. It made me a bit angry to be honest.

 

We paid him and later mentioned we will not be using him for any other work in our building. Back home the sparkie will fill the gaps 100% the norm. Do you agree its the same over here? I was surprised by this guys attitude or am I being too fussy?

Both points of view are common but while a sparkie may block up large holes it’s not his job to get the areas paint ready, his job is to provide a good electrical install. 
 

A painter will/should know the perfect prepped surface.
 

There is an interesting video from the 10 minute workshop where Peter explains that he always thought he was preparing paint ready furniture (it was always sent out for painting) until 

One time he had to do the paint job himself, he found his “perfectly paint ready” job was a long long way from that.

29 minutes ago, advancebooking said:

Finally.... if I use acrylic silicon on the gaps

Acrylic filler is not silicone and silicone filler is not acrylic, virtually all acrylic fillers are designed to be painted, many silicone fillers don’t take paint well.

 

29 minutes ago, advancebooking said:

can I go and put latex (water based) paints on the plastic mounts that cover the wires?

Yes you can but it may flake off if the surface is too smooth and you don’t prime the plastic.

Edited February 27, 2020 by sometimewoodworker

[emanphoto]

Back in the USA electricians did NOT do finishing work.  One would think that after all the $ spent you'd get that but you don't.  They do one thing.

[Pedrogaz]

There are no standards here in Thailand, not for electricians, not for mechanics, plumbers, builders, doctors, nurses or even librarians.

We asked for our house to be earthed...indeed we got a friend who happens to be the top electrical engineering guy in the town to interview the electron and insist on earthing. What do the guy do.....he charged us for earthing but when you took the socket off the wall and pulled on the green line, it came away and was not attached to anything at all. 

I went ballistic but had already paid at this point. 

[Retfed50]

On 2/27/2020 at 11:33 AM, sometimewoodworker said:

Both points of view are common but while a sparkie may block up large holes it’s not his job to get the areas paint ready, his job is to provide a good electrical install. 
 

A painter will/should know the perfect prepped surface.
 

There is an interesting video from the 10 minute workshop where Peter explains that he always thought he was preparing paint ready furniture (it was always sent out for painting) until 

One time he had to do the paint job himself, he found his “perfectly paint ready” job was a long long way from that.

Acrylic filler is not silicone and silicone filler is not acrylic, virtually all acrylic fillers are designed to be painted, many silicone fillers don’t take paint well.

 

Yes you can but it may flake off if the surface is too smooth and you don’t prime the plastic.

Bosny makes an acrylic sealant with silicone. I've used it quite a bit with good results, and it is paintable.

[bugattiklaus]

You expect to much ! Using any Acryl , gives you a better acsess later , and painting is no Problem .

A Electrichian and Silicone ??? They use Tons of Tape !

[khunPer]

On 2/27/2020 at 5:14 AM, advancebooking said:

At teh end of the job he basically said its the painters job to slicone the gaps. he said 'they will do a better job than us'.

The electrician is right, but it's depending of the painter, i.e. if the painter is a painter, or just some unskilled worker that has been given brush and roller together with the command "paint".

 

Don't expect everything here to be like you home country, remember "same-same but different"...

 

You can use acrylic paste instead of silicone. You might need a primer on the plastic before you paint with acrylic paint, but a good primer is always extremely recommendable, if you don't wish to repaint too soon. You might do a better job D.I.Y. than waiting for the painter to do the fillings.

 

A plastic glove and a bit of dish washing liquid (sulfo) on a fingertip, will make a nice surface, sulfo works well on silicone, but also on acrylic; plain water is also a possibility on acrylic paste.

????

[RocketDog]

1 hour ago, bugattiklaus said:

You expect to much ! Using any Acryl , gives you a better acsess later , and painting is no Problem .

A Electrichian and Silicone ??? They use Tons of Tape !

Although wire nuts are readily available here I've never seen any wiring done that used them.

 

Twisting wires together and covering with black tape creates a high resistance union that dissipates power and heats up under heavy current. The heat causes oxidation of the joint, further increasing the resistance and heat dissipation,etc. Wire nuts were not invented to sell plastic. 

 

They also bury wiring underground or in a concrete slab, with or without conduit. If they use conduit they don't glue the joints so water leakage is inevitable. 

 

Earthing, if done at all, consisted of running ground wire that are never actually connected to a ground rod. If it is, it's a short piece of iron rebar buried in the concrete foundation. 

 

For most of the trade work done here there simply are no standards. 

. 

[Tropposurfer]

Built houses for close to 30 years in my past life in Oz, but not Thailand.

Our compadres comments about this ain’t your home country are solid????????
Depends on sparky if they’ll fill gaps. This is pretty much world wide and agreed upon beforehand (but if people don’t know to stipulate and clarify before then it can end up ugly).

in the case of exterior wall

penetrations in Oz (not Thailand) where moisture and flowing water can enter they’ll usually fill, but not so much these days as the standards of skill effort n pride is fast leaving the trades in my country. Here the standards are way different and very loose.

filling is often left to painter ... especially where contractors know they’ll come along after.

But you gotta get all these minor details sorted beforehand!
Internally not unusual for leckies to fill as it’s usually agreed that painters filling is always far superior and uses gap fillers that will take primers and other paints perfectly, so left to them.

in the case of large multiple boring / drilling holes leckies e.g. mistakes and needing to refit/ patch plaster board or chase another cable channel in concert or block walks the site manager or owner has to step up n ask for those large mistakes to be filled by whoever makes em.

if I were you’d I get a decent safe ladder or small scaffold go buy Sika fillers n do the job myself.

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, RocketDog said:

Although wire nuts are readily available here I've never seen any wiring done that used them.

[khunPer]

4 hours ago, RocketDog said:

Although wire nuts are readily available here I've never seen any wiring done that used them.

My whole new-build (in 2010) house is made with them, actually a lot were used, as here are about 150 down-lights, etc...

 

I just asked for it in the job-description.

[MadMuhammad]

14 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

The only thing acceptable in any electrical installation IMO ????????‍♂️
 

 

[nickmondo]

I am a UK fully qualified electrician

All I can say when I look at the pictures: oh dear oh dear oh dear.

but as stated, standards very different in Thailand.

[sometimewoodworker]

15 minutes ago, nickmondo said:

I am a UK fully qualified electrician

Regrettably now you need to say when you became qualified for that to have much significance.

 

. 

Many/most Thai “electricians” would easily qualify under the current system, they would need to make a few changes to procedures but not many.

[bankruatsteve]

21 hours ago, RocketDog said:

Twisting wires together and covering with black tape creates a high resistance union that dissipates power and heats up under heavy current. The heat causes oxidation of the joint, further increasing the resistance and heat dissipation,etc.

How do you get a high resistance union by twisting copper wires together?  A good vinyl tape provides excellent insulation.  I have found "twist and tape" esp. in Thailand to be a very effective union and near impossible to take apart.  The wire nuts found here are c_r_a_p and should be banned, IMO.

[RocketDog]

21 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

OK. Now I have. 

Thanks. 

[bankruatsteve]

3 minutes ago, RocketDog said:

OK. Now I have. 

Thanks. 

I used the damned things when I did my house - even using ty-rap and tape to secure.  But, the temp variations in the attic would eventually cause many to work loose causing arcing (worst case) and/or loss of connection.  

[RocketDog]

1 hour ago, bankruatsteve said:

How do you get a high resistance union by twisting copper wires together?  A good vinyl tape provides excellent insulation.  I have found "twist and tape" esp. in Thailand to be a very effective union and near impossible to take apart.  The wire nuts found here are c_r_a_p and should be banned, IMO.

Because twisting, especially stranded wire, simply does not provide the gas-tight metal to metal contact that a wire nut or screw connector provides. Surely you agree that the more forcefully two wires are joined the lower the resistance between them. 

 

I'm not implying that there are several ohms between the wires, but anything more than zero will dissipate power proportional to the square of the current. Heat, even low grade heat causes oxidation, which raises resistance, etc. 

 

These are well known facts, I didn't invent this theory. Don't take my word for it. 

 

As for the black tape, I won't bother to refute that.  I can simply say that it is not acceptable workmanship in most of the world for good reason. 

 

But hey, it's your house, not mine. 

[RocketDog]

3 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

I used the damned things when I did my house - even using ty-rap and tape to secure.  But, the temp variations in the attic would eventually cause many to work loose causing arcing (worst case) and/or loss of connection.  

OK. Maybe you need better ones. There can certainly be quality differences between all products. 

 

Apparently most of the world has not had the same  experience you have. 

I have used them for years and never had that problem. 

[bankruatsteve]

7 minutes ago, RocketDog said:

OK. Maybe you need better ones. There can certainly be quality differences between all products. 

 

Apparently most of the world has not had the same  experience you have. 

I have used them for years and never had that problem. 

I specifically said the wire nuts here (in Thailand) are, IMO, worthless.  If you found good ones here, it would be of interest where.  I also had no issues using them in the states.

[RocketDog]

4 minutes ago, bankruatsteve said:

I specifically said the wire nuts here (in Thailand) are, IMO, worthless.  If you found good ones here, it would be of interest where.  I also had no issues using them in the states.

I brought some from the USA on one of my trips but also  ordered a me from Lazada. The plastic shell was not as beefy as I would prefer but inspected them closely for good quality helical wire cones inside with sharp edges. I'm sure they are Chinese, and generally don't trust their quality, but some things I've bought have been adequate. 

 

I've seen them in ThaiWatsadu but never bought any. Thanks for the heads up though. I'll check them before using if I have to buy them here. 

 

There are unions with flexible PVC  skins that are intended to be crushed with pliers to finalize the joint. These resemble wire nuts but don't work the same way. In my opinion they are not as reliable as wire nuts, and certainly not removable. 

 

I'm not talking about Crimp connectors either. I have a ratchet crimp tool and connectors that I use for smaller gauge wire signal connections but it's not suitable for power wiring. 

 

I have seen too many taped joints even in external wiring and wiring exposed to sunlight. My main gripe is that the people here don't have any respect for how dangerous electricity can be, and how important good connections are. 

 

You may remember the period in the USA when aluminum wiring and copper coated aluminum wire was used for house wiring to save cost.  It proved a very dangerous proposition and outlets were even produced that accepted aluminum wiring as well as anti-oxidant creme you could use on copper-aluminum mixed joints. Aluminum wiring soon fell from favor and most state building codes forbade its use. Hish resistance joints have caused more than one house fire. 

[Cake Monster]

4 hours ago, sometimewoodworker said:

Regrettably now you need to say when you became qualified for that to have much significance.

 

. 

Many/most Thai “electricians” would easily qualify under the current system, they would need to make a few changes to procedures but not many.

You really dont have any idea at all about the Training or Standards to which a UK Qualified ( Tradesman ) Electrician has to work to. ( or any other UK Tradesman )

This Chap probably undertook at least a 4 Year Apprenticeship to become Qualified, with all his work having to be performed to the latest Electrical Standards in the UK.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Cake Monster

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, Cake Monster said:

You really dont have any idea at all about the Training or Standards to which a UK Qualified ( Tradesman ) Electrician has to work to. ( or any other UK Tradesman )

This Chap probably undertook at least a 4 Year Apprenticeship to become Qualified, with all his work having to be performed to the latest Electrical Standards in the UK.

I certainly know what used to be required years ago and if he got his qualifications then I agree.

 

You seem not to know much about the recent dumbing down of the training and that you can become a fully qualified Domestic Electrician in far less time than that it can take just a few weeks.

 

If you listen to an old time electriction you will hear all about the way current “electricians” are trained or more likely the appalling lack of training.
 

Do get one started on the part P only qualification!

 

In the past to be a fully qualified tradesman had an absolute meaning For all and for those who had a City and Guilds in the trade you knew the level of their skill. That unfortunately is less and less true 

Edited February 29, 2020 by sometimewoodworker

[tjo o tjim]

3 hours ago, RocketDog said:

I brought some from the USA on one of my trips but also  ordered a me from Lazada. The plastic shell was not as beefy as I would prefer but inspected them closely for good quality helical wire cones inside with sharp edges. I'm sure they are Chinese, and generally don't trust their quality, but some things I've bought have been adequate. 

 

I've seen them in ThaiWatsadu but never bought any. Thanks for the heads up though. I'll check them before using if I have to buy them here. 

 

There are unions with flexible PVC  skins that are intended to be crushed with pliers to finalize the joint. These resemble wire nuts but don't work the same way. In my opinion they are not as reliable as wire nuts, and certainly not removable. 

 

I'm not talking about Crimp connectors either. I have a ratchet crimp tool and connectors that I use for smaller gauge wire signal connections but it's not suitable for power wiring. 

 

I have seen too many taped joints even in external wiring and wiring exposed to sunlight. My main gripe is that the people here don't have any respect for how dangerous electricity can be, and how important good connections are. 

 

You may remember the period in the USA when aluminum wiring and copper coated aluminum wire was used for house wiring to save cost.  It proved a very dangerous proposition and outlets were even produced that accepted aluminum wiring as well as anti-oxidant creme you could use on copper-aluminum mixed joints. Aluminum wiring soon fell from favor and most state building codes forbade its use. Hish resistance joints have caused more than one house fire. 

Well said; there are a lot of ways to make a joint that work well, as long as all the standards are met.  I have seen an electrician in the US try to use a hammer and then a pliers to make a large conductor crimp... I have seen people botch a Kup-L-Tap (insulation piercing), and I have seen various international failures on making a connection once things get a little out of the ordinary.

 

Anything is better than a twisted and taped connection though.

[bankruatsteve]

1 minute ago, tjo o tjim said:

Anything is better than a twisted and taped connection though.

IMO, the most serious defect in wiring is a loose connection.  That is, I think, the primary contributor to electrical caused fires.  (arcing)  Again, a twist and tape, esp. Thai, is about the most solid connection there is.  Any joint by whatever method should be protected/enclosed.  The "problem" with Thai "twist and tape" is that they are often not protected and get dissed for that reason.  They are certainly better than wire nuts for a good solid connection.  I am using crimped connections with heat shrink when feasible.  The bottom line is: a good, solid, protected connection is what's important and wire nuts from Thailand do not do that.  Cheers.

[RocketDog]

10 hours ago, bankruatsteve said:

IMO, the most serious defect in wiring is a loose connection.  That is, I think, the primary contributor to electrical caused fires.  (arcing)  Again, a twist and tape, esp. Thai, is about the most solid connection there is.  Any joint by whatever method should be protected/enclosed.  The "problem" with Thai "twist and tape" is that they are often not protected and get dissed for that reason.  They are certainly better than wire nuts for a good solid connection.  I am using crimped connections with heat shrink when feasible.  The bottom line is: a good, solid, protected connection is what's important and wire nuts from Thailand do not do that.  Cheers.

A solid connection is the main point here, however it can be obtained. If loose lips sink ships, loose connections burn houses! 

 

The best electrical and most robust mechanical connection is two copper conductors laid side by side or tightly twisted and soldered with tin-lead solder and flux, not that crappy ROHS solder.  There are many small butane torches available to solder connections anywhere. 

The second element is robust and permanent insulation of the joint 

This is where I shun tape. Sharp edges on the conductors can too easily piece the tape and heat will cause the tape to age and loosen as the plasticizers in the tape outgas, leaving the tape brittle. Of course UV for sunlight will quickly quickly disintegrate the plastic as well. 

I prefer wire nuts, if they are quality, simply because they are removable when necessary for checking or modifying connections.

 

This has been an informative and useful discussion that may benefit others. Thank you. 

[sometimewoodworker]

1 hour ago, RocketDog said:

The best electrical and most robust mechanical connection is two copper conductors laid side by side or tightly twisted and soldered with tin-lead solder and flux, not that crappy ROHS solder. 

There I completely disagree.

There there are reason why you will never normally find soldered joints in power circuits. 

 

One failure problem with that method will permit the joint to separate and potentially allow a loose connection if the cable is passing enough current to over heat, another is that the joint is mechanically weak so the cables have to be fixed in place so they don’t flex, a third is that the copper is made brittle so breaking at the point the solder finishes is common, a 4th is that with thermoplastic insulation the amount of heat needed will cause shrinking of the insulation. Then there is the skill required to form a good joint.
 

none of these are a problem on PCBs and low current low power applications 

Good mechanical connectors are far better

[Fruit Trader]

Another option for the cable joint aficionados to squabble over.

 

 

 

PS

Solder applied to power cable joints is usually a backup to a already mechanically sound connection method.

 

 

[tifino]

he could have at least been 'less' than a cheapskate, and dabbed this all over the final job...

 

 or another generic example  

 

does a better longer term temporsary cover than does PlastiDip 

 

This stuff is something everyone could consider getting - not really limited just to Electrical;

as I recently repaired Age Fatigue Splits in my Mazdas Air Intake duct under the bonnet