18 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Just leaving. We don't know the details yet but after the 441-page legal draft of the future EU-UK relationship, which has just been sent to EU member states for consideration, and if Boris means to maintain his promises (which the EU text seems to dash) it looks like it will be a hard exit.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-51871155

For me this is the problem with Brexit. We were voting on something while we did not know what the outcome would be.

If for one second I had thought leaving the EU would have been beneficial to the UK I would have been all over it. But then as now I see few benefits and many drawbacks. 

Regardless its a done deal now. We have to leave. But people who promised unicorns and sunny uplands should be held to account. A lot of people believed those guys and they were not honest.

I dont think we will see any kind of reconciliation between Leavers and Remainers until the people who told lies (on both sides) are vilified by the collective media and that is never going to happen given one of the biggest culprits is now in charge of the UK.

 

 

8 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

For me this is the problem with Brexit. We were voting on something while we did not know what the outcome would be.

If for one second I had thought leaving the EU would have been beneficial to the UK I would have been all over it. But then as now I see few benefits and many drawbacks. 

Regardless its a done deal now. We have to leave. But people who promised unicorns and sunny uplands should be held to account. A lot of people believed those guys and they were not honest.

I dont think we will see any kind of reconciliation between Leavers and Remainers until the people who told lies (on both sides) are vilified by the collective media and that is never going to happen given one of the biggest culprits is now in charge of the UK.

 

 

 

UK has fairly recently been through a "hold to account" exercise, ie the most recent GE

By now the counting of votes is completed and we can now see the consequences of being held to account

 

massive Cons support throughout the fog

 

until vilified? but that has been going on since before the referendum, should be about done and over by now

 

might as well start to reconcile

 

not happy? you can have a heavy on me!

 

EU is finished,no way it will survive in what was its past form

 

 Boris now has no option to get this 19 under control, referendum gives him the power,inner London ,Birmingham,Bradford etc etc more sensitive areas left alone ,but those thick on ,eire for example nuke 'em   throw Scotland in there too

12 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

For me this is the problem with Brexit. We were voting on something while we did not know what the outcome would be.

If for one second I had thought leaving the EU would have been beneficial to the UK I would have been all over it. But then as now I see few benefits and many drawbacks. 

Regardless its a done deal now. We have to leave. But people who promised unicorns and sunny uplands should be held to account. A lot of people believed those guys and they were not honest.

I dont think we will see any kind of reconciliation between Leavers and Remainers until the people who told lies (on both sides) are vilified by the collective media and that is never going to happen given one of the biggest culprits is now in charge of the UK.

- For this to be taken seriously you'll need to have voted to remain in the ???????? in 2014, &

 

- People who voted to leave the ???????? made their minds up long before the 'lies' baloney was spun by social media. Talk of unicorns etc is a complete Red Herring and serves only to support the 'ficker than us' narrative that was torpedoed once and for all last December. The electorate are not daft enough in sufficient numbers for there to be any truth in it.

51 minutes ago, evadgib said:

- For this to be taken seriously you'll need to have voted to remain in the ???????? in 2014, &

 

- People who voted to leave the ???????? made their minds up long before the 'lies' baloney was spun by social media. Talk of unicorns etc is a complete Red Herring and serves only to support the 'ficker than us' narrative that was torpedoed once and for all last December. The electorate are not daft enough in sufficient numbers for there to be any truth in it.

I dont believe the electorate are daft. I believe they were lied to.

31 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

I dont believe the electorate are daft. I believe they were lied to.

Quote

- People who voted to leave the ???????? made their minds up long before the 'lies' baloney was spun by social media. 

 

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

For me this is the problem with Brexit. We were voting on something while we did not know what the outcome would be.

If for one second I had thought leaving the EU would have been beneficial to the UK I would have been all over it. But then as now I see few benefits and many drawbacks. 

Regardless its a done deal now. We have to leave. But people who promised unicorns and sunny uplands should be held to account. A lot of people believed those guys and they were not honest.

I dont think we will see any kind of reconciliation between Leavers and Remainers until the people who told lies (on both sides) are vilified by the collective media and that is never going to happen given one of the biggest culprits is now in charge of the UK.

 

 

Nobody knows what the eventual outcome will be. The last four years has shown us that there are still forces working against Brexit, though now with less success. The Remain lobby failed in their original attempts to fob us off with BRINO, but are still trying even now with calls to delay due to Corona. Personally I back Boris's determination to keep to his schedule regardless. We could even get the No Deal Brexit if we are lucky, although there may be some concessions along the line.

The dishonesty and hysteria of the Remainers and MSM regarding Brexit has parallels to the same nonsense they are currently spouting about Corona. I suspect the worriers and panic buyers are all Remainers and I'm convinced the journos are the same ones trying to create a second round of Project Fear. Maybe they should be writing comic book horror stories or similar, but the collective media should not be relied on to vilify anybody with an objective view. MSM journos are the ones with obvious bias, only happy to vilify any position contrary to their own.

 

Having someone you regard as a 'culprit' in charge of the UK has no affect on what the media does about reconciliation. The press has vilified and lampooned Boris for ages, all to no avail. He returned to No.10 with his massive majority from the electorate, despite ongoing MSM attempts to vilify him and his personal life. He couldn't affect any media attempts at reconciliation even if he wanted to.

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

For me this is the problem with Brexit. We were voting on something while we did not know what the outcome would be.

If for one second I had thought leaving the EU would have been beneficial to the UK I would have been all over it. But then as now I see few benefits and many drawbacks. 

Regardless its a done deal now. We have to leave. But people who promised unicorns and sunny uplands should be held to account. A lot of people believed those guys and they were not honest.

I dont think we will see any kind of reconciliation between Leavers and Remainers until the people who told lies (on both sides) are vilified by the collective media and that is never going to happen given one of the biggest culprits is now in charge of the UK.

 

 

Well we've heard this so many times. I believe that most leavers voted to stop the loss of UK sovereignty to the EU; a loss which has become more and more evident to everyone over the years. Much sovereignty was lost in 1973, with even more eroded further over the four decades since, particularly via the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties. I'm just glad that sterling was not replaced by the Euro. It is also my view that most voters were decided on their positions long before any referendum campaigns, which featured lies and so-called promises from both sides. 

Edited March 15, 20206 yr by nauseus

47 minutes ago, Loiner said:

Nobody knows what the eventual outcome will be. The last four years has shown us that there are still forces working against Brexit, though now with less success. The Remain lobby failed in their original attempts to fob us off with BRINO, but are still trying even now with calls to delay due to Corona. Personally I back Boris's determination to keep to his schedule regardless. We could even get the No Deal Brexit if we are lucky, although there may be some concessions along the line.

The dishonesty and hysteria of the Remainers and MSM regarding Brexit has parallels to the same nonsense they are currently spouting about Corona. I suspect the worriers and panic buyers are all Remainers and I'm convinced the journos are the same ones trying to create a second round of Project Fear. Maybe they should be writing comic book horror stories or similar, but the collective media should not be relied on to vilify anybody with an objective view. MSM journos are the ones with obvious bias, only happy to vilify any position contrary to their own.

 

Having someone you regard as a 'culprit' in charge of the UK has no affect on what the media does about reconciliation. The press has vilified and lampooned Boris for ages, all to no avail. He returned to No.10 with his massive majority from the electorate, despite ongoing MSM attempts to vilify him and his personal life. He couldn't affect any media attempts at reconciliation even if he wanted to.

Right so again I ask the question.

How could you vote for something that you did not know how it was going to work out?

Just now, nauseus said:

Well we've heard this so many times. I believe that most leavers voted to stop the loss of UK sovereignty to the EU, a loss which has become more and more evident to everyone over the years. Much sovereignty was lost in 1973, with even more eroded further over the four decades since, particularly via the Maastricht and Lisbon treaties. I'm just glad that sterling was not replaced by the Euro. It is also my view that most voters were decided on their positions long before any referendum campaigns, which featured lies and so-called promises from both sides. 

In what way was UK sovereignty reduced?

Which law passed by the EU caused you personal grief?

2 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

In what way was UK sovereignty reduced?

Which law passed by the EU caused you personal grief?

1. The primacy of EU law over UK law, which affects so many things.

 

2. Extra taxes on my UK bank deposit.

I'm not worried, the EU will eventually go tits up

when the negative interest policy backfires.

Nice to be out of that bull sheet.

2 hours ago, evadgib said:

- For this to be taken seriously you'll need to have voted to remain in the ???????? in 2014, &

 

- People who voted to leave the ???????? made their minds up long before the 'lies' baloney was spun by social media. Talk of unicorns etc is a complete Red Herring and serves only to support the 'ficker than us' narrative that was torpedoed once and for all last December. The electorate are not daft enough in sufficient numbers for there to be any truth in it.

I accepted the result of the 2014 referendum and hence voted as I did in the EU referendum for what was best for the UK.

It would have suited my purposes to vote leave given it increases the chance of a second Scottish independence referendum but I did not.

After the result came in then that changes everything.

You need to understand the vast majority of us Scots wish no harm or grief on our southern neighbours. You guys have voted for that yourselves. 

2 minutes ago, nauseus said:

1. The primacy of EU law over UK law, which affects so many things.

 

2. Extra taxes on my UK bank deposit.

International law has supremacy over UK law. Are we going to leave planet earth next?

 

What extra tax?

30 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

International law has supremacy over UK law. Are we going to leave planet earth next?

 

What extra tax?

International law can only be incorporated into UK law if it is confirmed by UK (Parliament) legislation or through the courts as common law. Difficult to leave planet earth but we have left the EU (not that that was a piece of cherry cake).

 

What extra tax? That's what I said! Well almost.

 

 

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

International law has supremacy over UK law. Are we going to leave planet earth next?

 

What extra tax?

 

ahh, this again and on a Sunday

 

it is a fairly common misunderstandig throughout at least the western world that international law

has supremacy over national law

 

fyi, it hasn't

Edited March 15, 20206 yr by melvinmelvin
typo

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

International law can only be incorporated into UK law if it is confirmed by UK (Parliament) legislation or through the courts as common law. Difficult to leave planet earth but we have left the EU (not that that was a piece of cherry cake).

 

What extra tax? That's what I said! Well almost.

 

 

So signing up for the UN charter and stuff has an opt out?

 

I honestly dont understand the reference to higher taxes due to the EU. Thats a genuine question. I have never heard of such a thing.

10 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

So signing up for the UN charter and stuff has an opt out?

 

I honestly dont understand the reference to higher taxes due to the EU. Thats a genuine question. I have never heard of such a thing.

A UN Charter is not the really the same. International law may be adopted by any number of sovereign states but is not mandatory for all. It is voluntary - not like the EU. There is no judiciary - not like the EU either. 

4 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

Right so again I ask the question.

How could you vote for something that you did not know how it was going to work out?

We voted for what we wanted: to Leave the EU. 

Even when we voted we did not know what the forces of Remain would manage to stymy the eventual result to be. 

5 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

I accepted the result of the 2014 referendum and hence voted as I did in the EU referendum for what was best for the UK.

It would have suited my purposes to vote leave given it increases the chance of a second Scottish independence referendum but I did not.

After the result came in then that changes everything.

You need to understand the vast majority of us Scots wish no harm or grief on our southern neighbours. You guys have voted for that yourselves. 

So you readily applied informed consent to the result in 2014 yet did the exact opposite two years later?

8 hours ago, nauseus said:

A UN Charter is not the really the same. International law may be adopted by any number of sovereign states but is not mandatory for all. It is voluntary - not like the EU. There is no judiciary - not like the EU either. 

So when we signed up for UN charters thats OK but signing up for EU laws is not OK?

Also while part of the EU we had a veto.

Can you explain the extra taxes thing?

7 hours ago, Loiner said:

We voted for what we wanted: to Leave the EU. 

Even when we voted we did not know what the forces of Remain would manage to stymy the eventual result to be. 

Yes but you voted to leave without knowing the details of what leaving would be.

6 hours ago, evadgib said:

So you readily applied informed consent to the result in 2014 yet did the exact opposite two years later?

The Scottish government produced a white paper showing what independence would look like.

Vote leave gave vague promises and assurances and have never been held to account for their outright lies.

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

The Scottish government produced a white paper showing what independence would look like.

Vote leave gave vague promises and assurances and have never been held to account for their outright lies.

If you referring to this paper it shows what Scottish independence might look like it all parties agreed to SNP proposals

Staying in the EU - not guaranteed

Keeping Sterling - not guaranteed

keeping borders open without passport control and customs not guaranteed

https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

 

No different really to what the vote leave people was saying in 2016 they were indicating their preferred proposals

10 minutes ago, vinny41 said:

If you referring to this paper it shows what Scottish independence might look like it all parties agreed to SNP proposals

Staying in the EU - not guaranteed

Keeping Sterling - not guaranteed

keeping borders open without passport control and customs not guaranteed

https://www2.gov.scot/resource/0043/00439021.pdf

 

No different really to what the vote leave people was saying in 2016 they were indicating their preferred proposals

Staying in the EU. That was acknowledged. It was hoped the EU would be receptive towards Scotland remaining in (why wouldnt they be?) but it was understood it was not guaranteed.

 

Keeping sterling. That was pure fake news by Better together. There is no way anyone could stop Scotland from using the pound.

 

Keeping borders open. Is there a border between Ireland and Northern Ireland? But for some reason the Scottish/English border would have been a special case just because. 

1 minute ago, Rookiescot said:

Staying in the EU. That was acknowledged. It was hoped the EU would be receptive towards Scotland remaining in (why wouldnt they be?) but it was understood it was not guaranteed.

 

Keeping sterling. That was pure fake news by Better together. There is no way anyone could stop Scotland from using the pound.

 

Keeping borders open. Is there a border between Ireland and Northern Ireland? But for some reason the Scottish/English border would have been a special case just because. 

The Romans thought the same thing................????

4 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Staying in the EU. That was acknowledged. It was hoped the EU would be receptive towards Scotland remaining in (why wouldnt they be?) but it was understood it was not guaranteed.

 

Keeping sterling. That was pure fake news by Better together. There is no way anyone could stop Scotland from using the pound.

 

Keeping borders open. Is there a border between Ireland and Northern Ireland? But for some reason the Scottish/English border would have been a special case just because. 

NICOLA STURGEON was humiliated after figures revealed an independent Scotland would fail the European Union membership entrance test.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1237297/nicola-sturgeon-scotland-latest-news-independence-referendum-snp-eu-gdp

Scottish independence: Barroso warning on EU membership

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-scotland-20666146/scottish-independence-barroso-warning-on-eu-membership

Can Scotland be independent and keep sterling?

The Bank of England governor, Mark Carney, has also raised doubts about Scotland’s plan to use the pound. He said in January that an independent Scotland would need to give up significant areas of its sovereignty and reach a watertight deal with the UK on banking, taxation and spending if a new sterling zone were to avoid the risks and instability which had plagued the euro.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/03/can-scotland-be-independent-sterling

Scotland referendum 2014: the impact of independence on borders and citizenship

However, the UK Government has warned that the Scottish Government cannot assume that Scotland’s participation in the CTA would be acceptable to the other members.

https://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/research/scotland-the-referendum-and-independence/impact-on-borders-and-citizenship/

 

As previously stated everything in the SNP white paper was their wishlist nothing more nothing less  and with no agreements in place 

 

2 hours ago, Rookiescot said:

So when we signed up for UN charters thats OK but signing up for EU laws is not OK?

Also while part of the EU we had a veto.

Can you explain the extra taxes thing?

Well, the UN and the EU are rather different, eh? EU law intrudes far more into the business of individual members and is prime and binding, even if it has not been formally passed into UK law by Parliament. There is a single UN charter, with the legal aspects coming under the International Court of Justice (International Law). UN resolutions are not immediately legally binding on all member nations (but many often become part of international law after a a long period of acceptance). 

 

So EU not OK but UN OK (most of the time). UK vetoes within the EU have largely disappeared - ask Tony Blair.

 

I won't explain the extra taxes thing because it's a private matter.

Edited March 16, 20206 yr by nauseus

Amazing people still talk about Brexit given the Corona pandemic. This (and many other issues) will be gone from any agenda for a very long time, and the UK and the EU might have much worse things to solve than who gets to fish in what waters. 

5 minutes ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

Amazing people still talk about Brexit given the Corona pandemic. This (and many other issues) will be gone from any agenda for a very long time, and the UK and the EU might have much worse things to solve than who gets to fish in what waters. 

You may be right. I'm surprised you had time to drop in.