Fake Land Titles In Samui

[BL4u]

Anyone read the latest Samui express?

Front page article: ’10,000 land titles fake said Land Office’ covering 20,000 to 30,000 rai says head of the land department. The article is not yet on their website so you have to buy the newspaper to read it.

Is the mess in Samui really this big or are these numbers exaggerated?

[Mid]

possibily understated

[H2oDunc]

Must concur with MID. Lots of people in for an expensive lesson but to a lot of those who have bought land will bury their heads in the sand and say we are just scaremongering. Time will tell!!!!

[churchill]

How can the land office issue fake land papers ? I can understand if papers are upgraded illegally but that is different . Fake papers would be issued with a different owner when a legal paper already exists ? or are we talking forged land papers that are sold for a bit of land when it is already under a different ownership , or land papers issued for forest land that is untitled ?

[sbk]

They are real papers, issued by the land dept official but they are fake in that they aren't correct. ie issuing a chanote title for a piece of national forest land, all for a fat bribe, would, to most people, make it invalid.

[churchill]

They are real papers, issued by the land dept official but they are fake in that they aren't correct. ie issuing a chanote title for a piece of national forest land, all for a fat bribe, would, to most people, make it invalid.

Yes I agree there has been much talk about illegal upgrades , but that is not a fake paper it is an genuine paper but not legal because it was not issued correctly .

Perhaps they are talking about the same thing , but with the wording being different .

[womble]

They are real papers, issued by the land dept official but they are fake in that they aren't correct. ie issuing a chanote title for a piece of national forest land, all for a fat bribe, would, to most people, make it invalid.

Yes I agree there has been much talk about illegal upgrades , but that is not a fake paper it is an genuine paper but not legal because it was not issued correctly .

Perhaps they are talking about the same thing , but with the wording being different .

Quite often things are lost in translation..........

The fact remains there is a great deal of dodgy land on this Island, whether it is fake papers as in counterfeit does it really matter. Whether they are fake papers or real papers issued illegally by those in authority makes little difference, the fact remains the land isn't legally allowed to be built on and never was.

Incidently for those that paid for proper searches by Bangkok lawyers there shouldn't be any problems, doing so myself I found several plots which were dodgy and being offered by local lawyers as being a safe buy. Needless to say I gave them a wide berth. Had I used a local Samui Lawyer i'm sure I could eb one of the unlucky ones now stuck with one of those plots.

[stevieff]

They are real papers, issued by the land dept official but they are fake in that they aren't correct. ie issuing a chanote title for a piece of national forest land, all for a fat bribe, would, to most people, make it invalid.

Yes I agree there has been much talk about illegal upgrades , but that is not a fake paper it is an genuine paper but not legal because it was not issued correctly .

Perhaps they are talking about the same thing , but with the wording being different .

ued

Quite often things are lost in translation..........

The fact remains there is a great deal of dodgy land on this Island, whether it is fake papers as in counterfeit does it really matter. Whether they are fake papers or real papers issued illegally by those in authority makes little difference, the fact remains the land isn't legally allowed to be built on and never was.

Incidently for those that paid for proper searches by Bangkok lawyers there shouldn't be any problems, doing so myself I found several plots which were dodgy and being offered by local lawyers as being a safe buy. Needless to say I gave them a wide berth. Had I used a local Samui Lawyer i'm sure I could eb one of the unlucky ones now stuck with one of those plots.

Chanote is Chanote, if it's legally issued and duly registered in the Land Office, you can build on it. All the rest of this is BS.

[Mid]

, if it's legally issued

seems to be the rub , ah what .....................

[remih06]

10,000 land titles fake. Avarage price say 25,000 usd per land title? (it is as they say 20,000 rai meaning 2 rai average per land title) Value 200,000,000 usd. Who got all this money? Somebody became very rich in the land office. I've got a Sor Kor 1 document for 2 rai, please my Thai rak Thai friend official make it 20 rai, just take some forest land nobody uses and we share the profit if we sold it to a brainless farang.

[highdiver]

They are real papers, issued by the land dept official but they are fake in that they aren't correct. ie issuing a chanote title for a piece of national forest land, all for a fat bribe, would, to most people, make it invalid.

Yes I agree there has been much talk about illegal upgrades , but that is not a fake paper it is an genuine paper but not legal because it was not issued correctly .

Perhaps they are talking about the same thing , but with the wording being different .

ued

Quite often things are lost in translation..........

The fact remains there is a great deal of dodgy land on this Island, whether it is fake papers as in counterfeit does it really matter. Whether they are fake papers or real papers issued illegally by those in authority makes little difference, the fact remains the land isn't legally allowed to be built on and never was.

Incidently for those that paid for proper searches by Bangkok lawyers there shouldn't be any problems, doing so myself I found several plots which were dodgy and being offered by local lawyers as being a safe buy. Needless to say I gave them a wide berth. Had I used a local Samui Lawyer i'm sure I could eb one of the unlucky ones now stuck with one of those plots.

Chanote is Chanote, if it's legally issued and duly registered in the Land Office, you can build on it. All the rest of this is BS.

you are absolutly right chanot is a chanot if it was "Leagaly" issued.

But..... what happens f it is not legaly issued???

Samui has many land that were issued land title deed with out any legitamte cause. many of them have been sold a few times and seem legal but they are not.

40 years ago many land did not have a title deed and have been passed down from father to son. the govermant has intitiated a land upgrade to those lands about 40 years ago and gave them a Sor kor 1 title that was later approved to be upgraded to nor sor 3

Since Samui has become a real estate paradise about 10 years, and as land prices became more expansive. new land titles were issued to land plots that did not have land titles. ie forest land, toe bor 5 land an so on.

the titles ae on legitimate papaer and bare legitmate stamps. but they have been issued ileagaly!!

the most widely used scam was to issue a false sor kor 1 title that was preumably correct and then upgrade the title to nor sor 3. this could not be done with out the assitance of someone on the inside... and the motivation is there.

some of those lands were sold 3 or 4 times and they seem legit. but they are not. they are public lands or forrest lands that have been encroached and then made to have titles.

the fact the the papers seem in order and that the land office has registered all the land transaction does not conridict the basic fact that the land is false.

to examine if a land title is legit you need to ask the land office (as most serious lawyers will do) for the history of the land from the first land owner. if the first issue of a land title is from about 40 years ago when the land office started registering land then it is probably legit. however if the land has been issued the first ownership paper 7-10 years ago then it is probably not legit.

if you look at the old land office maps of Samui in the land office you can see that most of the proper owned lands were on the beach and mostly in the main towns.

in the hills and in in the inner part of the island most lands were farming lands under tor bor 5. so were did all those land titles come from???

a thai friend of mine was scamed to buy a plot of land from a distinguished well conected well known Thai on the island.

As it turns out she paid for the land and was not given any papers and was told that the land is tor bor 5 and that she need no worry as he will take care to make it legit. when i told her that he can not clear this matter as this is govermant land and under the law she can not buy it she just shrugged and said. you Farrang you do understand Thailand...

the DSI has been conducting an investigation at the land office for the past year together with the forest department and they have found many land titles that are false.

The question is what they will do about it?

will they confiscate the lands as they did in phuket?

[southwest19]

Anyone read the latest Samui express?

Front page article: '10,000 land titles fake said Land Office' covering 20,000 to 30,000 rai says head of the land department. The article is not yet on their website so you have to buy the newspaper to read it.

Is the mess in Samui really this big or are these numbers exaggerated?

A little tip for you don't believe everything you read in Samui Express and also you do not have to buy it it is a freebie!

[Kiiniow]

They are real papers, issued by the land dept official but they are fake in that they aren't correct. ie issuing a chanote title for a piece of national forest land, all for a fat bribe, would, to most people, make it invalid.

Yes I agree there has been much talk about illegal upgrades , but that is not a fake paper it is an genuine paper but not legal because it was not issued correctly .

Perhaps they are talking about the same thing , but with the wording being different .

Quite often things are lost in translation..........

The fact remains there is a great deal of dodgy land on this Island, whether it is fake papers as in counterfeit does it really matter. Whether they are fake papers or real papers issued illegally by those in authority makes little difference, the fact remains the land isn't legally allowed to be built on and never was.

Incidently for those that paid for proper searches by Bangkok lawyers there shouldn't be any problems, doing so myself I found several plots which were dodgy and being offered by local lawyers as being a safe buy. Needless to say I gave them a wide berth. Had I used a local Samui Lawyer i'm sure I could eb one of the unlucky ones now stuck with one of those plots.

Womble, I am getting a little tired of you and others saying that all Samui lawyers are corrupt. Sure, in past that may have been true and thus it is a well deserved reputation and something to be aware of and watch out for on Samui. But the fact is it is just not true now. While I too would not trust most of the lawyers/"firms" on Samui, there are a few that are as good or better than what you will find in Bangkok and who have the local knowledge BKK lawyers do not and who don't have to be flown down here to work at your expense. There is even a firm here that has found several land titles to be doddgy and advised their clients accordingly. On the other hand, just because a lawyer is from BKK does NOT make them trustworthy or good!....not by a longshot.

[morrismarina]

I agree, Bangkok lawyers are the only way to go

[stevieff]

They are real papers, issued by the land dept official but they are fake in that they aren't correct. ie issuing a chanote title for a piece of national forest land, all for a fat bribe, would, to most people, make it invalid.

Yes I agree there has been much talk about illegal upgrades , but that is not a fake paper it is an genuine paper but not legal because it was not issued correctly .

Perhaps they are talking about the same thing , but with the wording being different .

ued

Quite often things are lost in translation..........

The fact remains there is a great deal of dodgy land on this Island, whether it is fake papers as in counterfeit does it really matter. Whether they are fake papers or real papers issued illegally by those in authority makes little difference, the fact remains the land isn't legally allowed to be built on and never was.

Incidently for those that paid for proper searches by Bangkok lawyers there shouldn't be any problems, doing so myself I found several plots which were dodgy and being offered by local lawyers as being a safe buy. Needless to say I gave them a wide berth. Had I used a local Samui Lawyer i'm sure I could eb one of the unlucky ones now stuck with one of those plots.

Chanote is Chanote, if it's legally issued and duly registered in the Land Office, you can build on it. All the rest of this is BS.

you are absolutly right chanot is a chanot if it was "Leagaly" issued.

But..... what happens f it is not legaly issued???

Samui has many land that were issued land title deed with out any legitamte cause. many of them have been sold a few times and seem legal but they are not.

40 years ago many land did not have a title deed and have been passed down from father to son. the govermant has intitiated a land upgrade to those lands about 40 years ago and gave them a Sor kor 1 title that was later approved to be upgraded to nor sor 3

Since Samui has become a real estate paradise about 10 years, and as land prices became more expansive. new land titles were issued to land plots that did not have land titles. ie forest land, toe bor 5 land an so on.

the titles ae on legitimate papaer and bare legitmate stamps. but they have been issued ileagaly!!

the most widely used scam was to issue a false sor kor 1 title that was preumably correct and then upgrade the title to nor sor 3. this could not be done with out the assitance of someone on the inside... and the motivation is there.

some of those lands were sold 3 or 4 times and they seem legit. but they are not. they are public lands or forrest lands that have been encroached and then made to have titles.

the fact the the papers seem in order and that the land office has registered all the land transaction does not conridict the basic fact that the land is false.

to examine if a land title is legit you need to ask the land office (as most serious lawyers will do) for the history of the land from the first land owner. if the first issue of a land title is from about 40 years ago when the land office started registering land then it is probably legit. however if the land has been issued the first ownership paper 7-10 years ago then it is probably not legit.

if you look at the old land office maps of Samui in the land office you can see that most of the proper owned lands were on the beach and mostly in the main towns.

in the hills and in in the inner part of the island most lands were farming lands under tor bor 5. so were did all those land titles come from???

a thai friend of mine was scamed to buy a plot of land from a distinguished well conected well known Thai on the island.

As it turns out she paid for the land and was not given any papers and was told that the land is tor bor 5 and that she need no worry as he will take care to make it legit. when i told her that he can not clear this matter as this is govermant land and under the law she can not buy it she just shrugged and said. you Farrang you do understand Thailand...

the DSI has been conducting an investigation at the land office for the past year together with the forest department and they have found many land titles that are false.

The question is what they will do about it?

will they confiscate the lands as they did in phuket?

First of all, let me say this, I posted what I said purposely to start a discussion. Highdiver, I'm glad you joined the discussion, I have respect for you. Typically, lands in Samui were issued land titles, as in most of Thailand, based upon agricultural occupation. Just use some common sense when evaluating a property. The farther away from the sea and the higher up the mountain you go, the less likely it is that land has a legally issued title. Of course, people are always looking for the good deal. Look for lands near the sea and not too far up the mountain, chances are their Chanote. They cost more money, though.

[Obelix]

Surely whats most important is that the lawyer, whether fro samui or Bangkok carries Indemnity insurance so that the client is protected, from research, there are several bangkok lawyers that do not carry this. (never asked on Samui)

[stevieff]

They are real papers, issued by the land dept official but they are fake in that they aren't correct. ie issuing a chanote title for a piece of national forest land, all for a fat bribe, would, to most people, make it invalid.

Yes I agree there has been much talk about illegal upgrades , but that is not a fake paper it is an genuine paper but not legal because it was not issued correctly .

Perhaps they are talking about the same thing , but with the wording being different .

ued

Quite often things are lost in translation..........

The fact remains there is a great deal of dodgy land on this Island, whether it is fake papers as in counterfeit does it really matter. Whether they are fake papers or real papers issued illegally by those in authority makes little difference, the fact remains the land isn't legally allowed to be built on and never was.

Incidently for those that paid for proper searches by Bangkok lawyers there shouldn't be any problems, doing so myself I found several plots which were dodgy and being offered by local lawyers as being a safe buy. Needless to say I gave them a wide berth. Had I used a local Samui Lawyer i'm sure I could eb one of the unlucky ones now stuck with one of those plots.

Chanote is Chanote, if it's legally issued and duly registered in the Land Office, you can build on it. All the rest of this is BS.

you are absolutly right chanot is a chanot if it was "Leagaly" issued.

But..... what happens f it is not legaly issued???

Samui has many land that were issued land title deed with out any legitamte cause. many of them have been sold a few times and seem legal but they are not.

40 years ago many land did not have a title deed and have been passed down from father to son. the govermant has intitiated a land upgrade to those lands about 40 years ago and gave them a Sor kor 1 title that was later approved to be upgraded to nor sor 3

Since Samui has become a real estate paradise about 10 years, and as land prices became more expansive. new land titles were issued to land plots that did not have land titles. ie forest land, toe bor 5 land an so on.

the titles ae on legitimate papaer and bare legitmate stamps. but they have been issued ileagaly!!

the most widely used scam was to issue a false sor kor 1 title that was preumably correct and then upgrade the title to nor sor 3. this could not be done with out the assitance of someone on the inside... and the motivation is there.

some of those lands were sold 3 or 4 times and they seem legit. but they are not. they are public lands or forrest lands that have been encroached and then made to have titles.

the fact the the papers seem in order and that the land office has registered all the land transaction does not conridict the basic fact that the land is false.

to examine if a land title is legit you need to ask the land office (as most serious lawyers will do) for the history of the land from the first land owner. if the first issue of a land title is from about 40 years ago when the land office started registering land then it is probably legit. however if the land has been issued the first ownership paper 7-10 years ago then it is probably not legit.

if you look at the old land office maps of Samui in the land office you can see that most of the proper owned lands were on the beach and mostly in the main towns.

in the hills and in in the inner part of the island most lands were farming lands under tor bor 5. so were did all those land titles come from???

a thai friend of mine was scamed to buy a plot of land from a distinguished well conected well known Thai on the island.

As it turns out she paid for the land and was not given any papers and was told that the land is tor bor 5 and that she need no worry as he will take care to make it legit. when i told her that he can not clear this matter as this is govermant land and under the law she can not buy it she just shrugged and said. you Farrang you do understand Thailand...

the DSI has been conducting an investigation at the land office for the past year together with the forest department and they have found many land titles that are false.

The question is what they will do about it?

will they confiscate the lands as they did in phuket?

First of all, let me say this, I posted what I said purposely to start a discussion. Highdiver, I'm glad you joined the discussion, I have respect for you. Typically, lands in Samui were issued land titles, as in most of Thailand, based upon agricultural occupation. Just use some common sense when evaluating a property. The farther away from the sea and the higher up the mountain you go, the less likely it is that land has a legally issued title. Of course, people are always looking for the good deal. Look for lands near the sea and not too far up the mountain, chances are their Chanote. They cost more money, though.

Also wanted to add one more comment, Highdiver. 40 years ago most all property in Thailand did not have clear property title, not just Samui. Everyone acts as though this problem is somehow only endemic to Samui. It is not. It's due to the fact that private land ownership in Thailand is still in it's infancy.

[highdiver]

They are real papers, issued by the land dept official but they are fake in that they aren't correct. ie issuing a chanote title for a piece of national forest land, all for a fat bribe, would, to most people, make it invalid.

Yes I agree there has been much talk about illegal upgrades , but that is not a fake paper it is an genuine paper but not legal because it was not issued correctly .

Perhaps they are talking about the same thing , but with the wording being different .

ued

Quite often things are lost in translation..........

The fact remains there is a great deal of dodgy land on this Island, whether it is fake papers as in counterfeit does it really matter. Whether they are fake papers or real papers issued illegally by those in authority makes little difference, the fact remains the land isn't legally allowed to be built on and never was.

Incidently for those that paid for proper searches by Bangkok lawyers there shouldn't be any problems, doing so myself I found several plots which were dodgy and being offered by local lawyers as being a safe buy. Needless to say I gave them a wide berth. Had I used a local Samui Lawyer i'm sure I could eb one of the unlucky ones now stuck with one of those plots.

Chanote is Chanote, if it's legally issued and duly registered in the Land Office, you can build on it. All the rest of this is BS.

you are absolutly right chanot is a chanot if it was "Leagaly" issued.

But..... what happens f it is not legaly issued???

Samui has many land that were issued land title deed with out any legitamte cause. many of them have been sold a few times and seem legal but they are not.

40 years ago many land did not have a title deed and have been passed down from father to son. the govermant has intitiated a land upgrade to those lands about 40 years ago and gave them a Sor kor 1 title that was later approved to be upgraded to nor sor 3

Since Samui has become a real estate paradise about 10 years, and as land prices became more expansive. new land titles were issued to land plots that did not have land titles. ie forest land, toe bor 5 land an so on.

the titles ae on legitimate papaer and bare legitmate stamps. but they have been issued ileagaly!!

the most widely used scam was to issue a false sor kor 1 title that was preumably correct and then upgrade the title to nor sor 3. this could not be done with out the assitance of someone on the inside... and the motivation is there.

some of those lands were sold 3 or 4 times and they seem legit. but they are not. they are public lands or forrest lands that have been encroached and then made to have titles.

the fact the the papers seem in order and that the land office has registered all the land transaction does not conridict the basic fact that the land is false.

to examine if a land title is legit you need to ask the land office (as most serious lawyers will do) for the history of the land from the first land owner. if the first issue of a land title is from about 40 years ago when the land office started registering land then it is probably legit. however if the land has been issued the first ownership paper 7-10 years ago then it is probably not legit.

if you look at the old land office maps of Samui in the land office you can see that most of the proper owned lands were on the beach and mostly in the main towns.

in the hills and in in the inner part of the island most lands were farming lands under tor bor 5. so were did all those land titles come from???

a thai friend of mine was scamed to buy a plot of land from a distinguished well conected well known Thai on the island.

As it turns out she paid for the land and was not given any papers and was told that the land is tor bor 5 and that she need no worry as he will take care to make it legit. when i told her that he can not clear this matter as this is govermant land and under the law she can not buy it she just shrugged and said. you Farrang you do understand Thailand...

the DSI has been conducting an investigation at the land office for the past year together with the forest department and they have found many land titles that are false.

The question is what they will do about it?

will they confiscate the lands as they did in phuket?

First of all, let me say this, I posted what I said purposely to start a discussion. Highdiver, I'm glad you joined the discussion, I have respect for you. Typically, lands in Samui were issued land titles, as in most of Thailand, based upon agricultural occupation. Just use some common sense when evaluating a property. The farther away from the sea and the higher up the mountain you go, the less likely it is that land has a legally issued title. Of course, people are always looking for the good deal. Look for lands near the sea and not too far up the mountain, chances are their Chanote. They cost more money, though.

Also wanted to add one more comment, Highdiver. 40 years ago most all property in Thailand did not have clear property title, not just Samui. Everyone acts as though this problem is somehow only endemic to Samui. It is not. It's due to the fact that private land ownership in Thailand is still in it's infancy.

you are right

but to she more info for those who are interested here it is in breif.

Traditionally, the king owned all the land, from which he made grants to nobles, officials, and other free subjects. If left uncultivated for three years, the land could be taken back by the crown, but otherwise it could be passed on to heirs or mortgaged or sold. At the same time, there was abundant unoccupied cultivable land that by tradition and custom could be cleared and used by a farmer, who after three years of continuous cultivation established informal rights. The concept of individual ownership of the land was introduced during the reign of King Chulalongkorn (Rama V, 1868-1910), and beginning in 1901 formal title could be acquired.

the land owning and posession rights have been in place since 1954 when thailand first introduced the administering of land rights. land Code BE 2497 (1954),

later in 1975 the govermant realised that there were many people who were farming lands but had no real possesion rights on those lands as such they allowed people to make a claim on the land. the Land Reform for Agricultural Act BE 2518 (1975), this was the introduction of the Sor Kor 1 deed.

the sor kor 1 deed recognises that a person is in possession of land but the Certificate does not imply that there are any rights associated which the possession. It is not transferable, but a person in possession may transfer physical possession and the new possessor may apply for a new Certificate of Possession. the govermant then allowed holders of this deed to file a request to upgrade the land title to full ownership. the process was that hey needed to prove that they have been cultivating that land for at least 10 years and prove the stake claim to the land officer. the original Sor Kor 1 land title registration ended in 1979!

In practice, few succeed, and millions of Thais live on what is technically public land.

Speculators exploit this ambiguity by bribing officials to backdate land purchases.to issue a new sor kor 1 deeds on land that never had a deed. and once they achieved it upgraded the title to nor sor 3 or even chanotte.

In Samui most of the island was govermant land. but since the mid 90 when the island became a tourist boom destination suddenly many lands had some how became private free hold.....

the problem is that now the DSI investigating this problem has found especially in Samui that as according to the statement 20,000 Rai were issued claims (Sor kor 1) ileagaly. and that the land is infact public govermant land.

the big problem is that those land have now been sold 3-4 times and seem legit. and the big question is what will the govermant do.

[Rooo]

^{Speculators exploit this ambiguity by bribing officials to backdate land purchases.to issue a new sor kor 1 deeds on land that never had a deed. and once they achieved it upgraded the title to nor sor 3 or even chanotte.}

^{In Samui most of the island was government land. but since the mid 90 when the island became a tourist boom destination suddenly many lands had some how became private free hold.....}

^{the problem is that now the DSI investigating this problem has found especially in Samui that as according to the statement 20,000 Rai were issued claims (Sor kor 1) illegally. and that the land is infact public government land.}

^{the big problem is that those land have now been sold 3-4 times and seem legit. and the big question is what will the government do.}

So where does the government stand against it's own failure to police their own departments?It's all good the DSI investigating all this,but getting to the root of the problem,which is quite apparent,is the failure of ( from ministers,down to departmental heads) effectively running the land office.This problem is not new,it has been highlighted in my opinion in the past couple of years with the blatant abuse of the law by some land developers.

I think the government might have 2 options:

1/Revoke the land title,revert ownership back to itself & if there is any buildings on the land,lease the land back to the current occupier.

2/Do nothing, but prove a point that they are capable now of tracking any dodgy land deals.Sending a strong signal out , that these days are over.

Now imagine if they tried to sue or seize land from current owners ( 3rd & 4th transfer),the Judical system will be cripled with people sueing the previous sellrers,land office officials & so on.It's just not feasable.

Edited April 9, 2007 by Rooo

[Mid]

It's just not feasable.

in Thailand ,

that's the best you've got ???

[Rooo]

It's just not feasable.

in Thailand ,

that's the best you've got ???

God I love one liners.Duhhhhhhhhhhhhh.

[Pilchard]

In the last couple of lines of the samui depress article they mention most of the problem has been cuased by the old method of surveying with coconut trees as boundries.(the method also with one hand stretched outward ).

Now the whole island has been satalite surveyed all the previous errors are showing up.

They also state that the investigation has yet to prove if there has been any intent to defruad, or just simply incompetence on the behalf of the land office staff !

Excuses being made ready for when no one but gready forigners are found to be at fault ! That's what it sounds like to me .

Edited April 10, 2007 by Pilchard

[BL4u]

They also state that the investigation has yet to prove if there has been any intent to defruad, or just simply incompetence on the behalf of the land office staff !

Excuses being made ready for when no one but gready forigners are found to be at fault ! That's what it sounds like to me .

Another nice article was the recent land scam (not the Peak) published in the Samui express and the Samui community newspaper (February 2006) about the ranking civil servants and government men involved in a 50 rai illegal encroachment on forest land. They created and adjusted land documents and planned to sell 50 rai of prime hill top forest land for 3 million per rai to foreign investors.

Meaning the land title was illegally issued with involvement of government officials. It's the gready locals in charge.....

The witness (who could point out the ranking civil servants and government men involved in this land scam) managed to escape during his transport to Nathon. Still at large.

[sbk]

Another nice article was the recent land scam (not the Peak) published in the Samui express and the Samui community newspaper (February 2006) about the ranking civil servants and government men involved in a 50 rai illegal encroachment on forest land. They created and adjusted land documents and planned to sell 50 rai of prime hill top forest land for 3 million per rai to foreign investors.

Meaning the land title was illegally issued with involvement of government officials. It's the gready locals in charge.....

The witness (who could point out the ranking civil servants and government men involved in this land scam) managed to escape during his transport to Nathon. Still at large.

My understanding is that ranking (and even non-ranking) civil servants (ie non-elected govt employees) are rarely posted to their hometown as it breeds cronyism and nepotism. So, it is highly unlikely that these ranking civil servants are "greedy locals".

[Master of the court]

They are real papers, issued by the land dept official but they are fake in that they aren't correct. ie issuing a chanote title for a piece of national forest land, all for a fat bribe, would, to most people, make it invalid.

Yes I agree there has been much talk about illegal upgrades , but that is not a fake paper it is an genuine paper but not legal because it was not issued correctly .

Perhaps they are talking about the same thing , but with the wording being different .

ued

Quite often things are lost in translation..........

The fact remains there is a great deal of dodgy land on this Island, whether it is fake papers as in counterfeit does it really matter. Whether they are fake papers or real papers issued illegally by those in authority makes little difference, the fact remains the land isn't legally allowed to be built on and never was.

Incidently for those that paid for proper searches by Bangkok lawyers there shouldn't be any problems, doing so myself I found several plots which were dodgy and being offered by local lawyers as being a safe buy. Needless to say I gave them a wide berth. Had I used a local Samui Lawyer i'm sure I could eb one of the unlucky ones now stuck with one of those plots.

Chanote is Chanote, if it's legally issued and duly registered in the Land Office, you can build on it. All the rest of this is BS.

you are absolutly right chanot is a chanot if it was "Leagaly" issued.

But..... what happens f it is not legaly issued???

Samui has many land that were issued land title deed with out any legitamte cause. many of them have been sold a few times and seem legal but they are not.

40 years ago many land did not have a title deed and have been passed down from father to son. the govermant has intitiated a land upgrade to those lands about 40 years ago and gave them a Sor kor 1 title that was later approved to be upgraded to nor sor 3

Since Samui has become a real estate paradise about 10 years, and as land prices became more expansive. new land titles were issued to land plots that did not have land titles. ie forest land, toe bor 5 land an so on.

the titles ae on legitimate papaer and bare legitmate stamps. but they have been issued ileagaly!!

the most widely used scam was to issue a false sor kor 1 title that was preumably correct and then upgrade the title to nor sor 3. this could not be done with out the assitance of someone on the inside... and the motivation is there.

some of those lands were sold 3 or 4 times and they seem legit. but they are not. they are public lands or forrest lands that have been encroached and then made to have titles.

the fact the the papers seem in order and that the land office has registered all the land transaction does not conridict the basic fact that the land is false.

to examine if a land title is legit you need to ask the land office (as most serious lawyers will do) for the history of the land from the first land owner. if the first issue of a land title is from about 40 years ago when the land office started registering land then it is probably legit. however if the land has been issued the first ownership paper 7-10 years ago then it is probably not legit.

if you look at the old land office maps of Samui in the land office you can see that most of the proper owned lands were on the beach and mostly in the main towns.

in the hills and in in the inner part of the island most lands were farming lands under tor bor 5. so were did all those land titles come from???

a thai friend of mine was scamed to buy a plot of land from a distinguished well conected well known Thai on the island.

As it turns out she paid for the land and was not given any papers and was told that the land is tor bor 5 and that she need no worry as he will take care to make it legit. when i told her that he can not clear this matter as this is govermant land and under the law she can not buy it she just shrugged and said. you Farrang you do understand Thailand...

the DSI has been conducting an investigation at the land office for the past year together with the forest department and they have found many land titles that are false.

The question is what they will do about it?

will they confiscate the lands as they did in phuket?

Can somone post a map with highlighted proper landtitles ????

[BL4u]

They also state that the investigation has yet to prove if there has been any intent to defruad, or just simply incompetence on the behalf of the land office staff !

Excuses being made ready for when no one but gready forigners are found to be at fault ! That's what it sounds like to me .

Another nice article was the recent land scam (not the Peak) published in the Samui express and the Samui community newspaper (February 2006) about the ranking civil servants and government men involved in a 50 rai illegal encroachment on forest land. They created and adjusted land documents and planned to sell 50 rai of prime hill top forest land for 3 million per rai to foreign investors.

Meaning the land title was illegally issued with involvement of government officials. It's the gready locals in charge.....

The witness (who could point out the ranking civil servants and government men involved in this land scam) managed to escape during his transport to Nathon. Still at large.

It was a February 2007 article:

Samui Forest Raid

On January 30, Mr. Sompong Phetongklang, the Director of Forest Preservation and the Surattanni Preventative Operation Center , inco-operationwith Mr. Deach Kangsanan, the Chief of Samui District Office, were involved in a sting operation to bring down a network of illegal loggers and wood smugglers.

The investigating team suspects that both government officials and large scale investors are involved in illegal logging on Samui and the operation was aimed at a gang allegedly chopping down trees in a protected area of over 45 rai.

During the investigation leading to the raid, it was found that a group of government officials had hired workers to occupy 20 rai of prime hilltop woodland and clear it of commercial wood stocks. It is alleged that this action was taken prior to the sale of the land to foreign investors at a rate of 3 million baht per rai.

From marks left on the trees, investigators believe the overall profit on the deal would have exceeded 140 million baht and resulted in a cost to the local government of 3.5 million baht. However a complaint was filed that resulted in an investigation based on possible violations to the forestry laws.

During the initial raid, Mr. Boonlue Klabmuang, 38, was caught cutting trees illegally. However, the suspect managed to escape from the vehicle used to transport him to Nathon and therefore still at large.

Source Samui Community feb 2007

[Boater]

Anyone read the latest Samui express?

Front page article: '10,000 land titles fake said Land Office' covering 20,000 to 30,000 rai says head of the land department. The article is not yet on their website so you have to buy the newspaper to read it.

Is the mess in Samui really this big or are these numbers exaggerated?

A little tip for you don't believe everything you read in Samui Express and also you do not have to buy it it is a freebie!

above quote very true, Samui Express fail to get there facts correct. MAny a time have they published rubbish!! The recent paper with this article also carries another intersting article (Front Page) about the best big breakfeast on the Island, now from looking at the picture i think not!!!! Remember they seem to publish gossip!!