Third World In Whose Eyes?

[Naam]

Then again, have you seen how some Farangs live, being stuck in some crappy little Fan room in a crummy little Soi in Pattaya is hardly likely to promote good feelings about ones situation in life.

Being in a good financial position in Thailand does wonders to the perception of life in Thailand, even though it maybe a totally selfish viewpoint.

bingo!

[ColPyat]

Yeah that’s about the angle I was following, so both you and I are starry-eyed, Pie-in-the-sky, Polly Annas, who can’t discern an objective opinion.

I think really the argument was coming from those who really want Thailand to be the far edge of the civilized world. It makes their experience here more heroic and exotic. It isn’t much fun to think that this is actually a pretty soft place, existence is basically guaranteed. That is not saying people don’t work hard, many work very hard, they just aren’t likely to get put in a political prison, tortured by a death squad, or starve to death.

Thanks Jezchesters for actually reading the OP.

Sorry to be a fly in the ointment again.

Soft place? Read the crime stats:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_...s-with-firearms

Have you read about the drug war a few years ago? Several thousand Thais were killed in summary executions.

What about the insurgency down South? Military Coup? Huge gap between rich and poor?

Superficially it may look like a "Land of Smile", behind that though is an increasingly unstable country with huge yet unsolved problems.

[lingling]

Many people on Thai Visa claim Thailand is third world. I find that a bit strong, as my life here is often more enjoyable than it is in North America. If I chose to I could lead a fairly western lifestyle here; if I had the means, a life of total luxury.

I feel that the use of the term 'third world' in these discussions is usually quite flippant and intended to be derogatory.

I am curious about what makes people think Thailand is 'third world', and what (for the lack of a better term) is reasonably modern.

I will start with two Items:

Reasonably Modern -Hospitals

Third World -Sickly street dogs

It doesn't matter if you can live a luxury life here or not. What matters is enough of the population live in poverty, without access to the modern hospitals, imported wine, servants and whatever luxury you are getting here that you couldn't afford in your North American home country.

Dive into the figures here:

http://www.unescap.org/stat/data/goalIndicatorArea.aspx

[terry57]

Then again, have you seen how some Farangs live, being stuck in some crappy little Fan room in a crummy little Soi in Pattaya is hardly likely to promote good feelings about ones situation in life.

Being in a good financial position in Thailand does wonders to the perception of life in Thailand, even though it maybe a totally selfish viewpoint.

bingo!

if one has no money life is fairly crappy in any country on this earth.

try living in the civilised world on a government pension and see how many laughs one will have.

the only up point is that you can trot down to the hospital and get free treatment if you are crook.

if one had no money in asia it would be a nightmare as nothing is free here and to be a farang on the bones of ones arse one would be lower than a soi dog.

its a fact of life that no money = no honey and no life.

thank you very much.

but on the up side if one has money in asia, one can live a cracker of an existance.

[ColPyat]

but on the up side if one has money in asia, one can live a cracker of an existance.

Problem though is that the majority of the indigenous population here does not have money, and has not exactly a cracker of an existence. Government pensions on a whole are only available for the privileged few who have been able to get a government job.

Universal health care is a joke, especially because now, since the coup, the budget for the first step into a universal health care introduced by the previous government has been cut, so that it is only a matter of time that it will completely collapse (while military budgets have been raised).

[terry57]

but on the up side if one has money in asia, one can live a cracker of an existance.

Problem though is that the majority of the indigenous population here does not have money, and has not exactly a cracker of an existence. Government pensions on a whole are only available for the privileged few who have been able to get a government job.

Universal health care is a joke, especially because now, since the coup, the budget for the first step into a universal health care introduced by the previous government has been cut, so that it is only a matter of time that it will completely collapse (while military budgets have been raised).

i agree with you, but most thai's have an extended family to assist them in times of need and they are used to surviving with little money.

i also dont think a thai would recieve quality health care if they have no money, and as you say its a bit of a joke.

my above quotes are directed at farang trying to survive in asia with no money, as thats a completely different ball game than a local with no money.

it is true that farang can lead a dream life in asia if one is financial.

thank you very much.

[Prakanong]

but on the up side if one has money in asia, one can live a cracker of an existance.

Problem though is that the majority of the indigenous population here does not have money, and has not exactly a cracker of an existence. Government pensions on a whole are only available for the privileged few who have been able to get a government job.

Universal health care is a joke, especially because now, since the coup, the budget for the first step into a universal health care introduced by the previous government has been cut, so that it is only a matter of time that it will completely collapse (while military budgets have been raised).

And there must be a certain level of economic wealth in the local population for anyone to have a good life locally even if the farang has money.

If local conditions are bad its not worth being there - who would want to live like a king in the middle of poverty?

If that's what they want why not head to Africa?

[ColPyat]

And there must be a certain level of economic wealth in the local population for anyone to have a good life locally even if the farang has money.

If local conditions are bad its not worth being there - who would want to live like a king in the middle of poverty?

If that's what they want why not head to Africa?

Never said that Thailand belongs to the bottom.

But there are more than a few who enjoy living like a king in the middle of dismal poverty, especially the ones who are attracted by the more illicit things that go on rather unpunished in such places. Cambodia is a prime example, especially during the early days after UNTAC.

I can't say much about Africa, i have only been there once.

[ThaiGoon]

I remain that there are some out here who couldn't say a nice thing about this place if there life was on the line.

So true.

very true, given the growing unrest in the south, the bombings in Bnagkok (more to come), and the coup, your life is very much going to be on the line. so why say anything nice given the reality that thailand is no longer the land of rainbows and lollipops. sorry you are in such denial

What an absurd statement. Your life is now on the line because of those reasons? How did the coup cause any potential risk to your life? You got a heart attack everytime you see a tank running around? The unrest in the South? If you don't live in the far South, there's more of a chance that you will catch Aids from a working girl than die from a bombing. Since the unrest has started from around the year 2000, tourists and expats in Thailand have died more from natural causes than from being victims in a terrorist act. In fact, I still haven't heard any story about a foreign tourist even getting killed in down South. "The bombings in Bangkok (more to come)"..come on. Seriously, if you look at the history, there's a great danger of getting blown up by terrorists when you are in London or Madrid (or New York) than when you are in Bangkok. What a ridiculous statement to make.

Edited April 11, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[wangsuda]

Thaigoon has pointed out the Gini Index and there are others such as the UN's HDI which has Thailand at 74 in the world in 2006

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...Index#endnote_2

I think given over all indices Thailand is not 3rd world in any technical sense if the term 3rd world can have a technical meaning any more! NIC (Newly Industrialised Country) is the correct term for Thailand now I believe.

The term 3rd world is used here and on other forums as a catch all though.

Would Amyarta Sen be talking about Thailand developing now with a recent coup to end democracy and not forgetting the rampant endemic corruption and patchy rule of law

I think many here are discussing apples and oranges when they discuss 3rd world - there is the hard technical figures as opposed to the soft corruption et al which has such an adverse affect on quality of life.

"I think given over all indices Thailand is not 3rd world in any technical sense" Bull. This is a country that, since its declared independence, has not figured out drainage. For hundreds of years, Thailand has faced flooding and heavy rainfall. And yet, with all the modernization, they STILL cannot do drainage. When they can properly drain their roadways, when they can equip their army without importing everything INCLUDING bullets, when they can actually build a bridge, building, and/or transportation system without foreign help, then they are truly industrialized, or first world.

[Prakanong]

And there must be a certain level of economic wealth in the local population for anyone to have a good life locally even if the farang has money.

If local conditions are bad its not worth being there - who would want to live like a king in the middle of poverty?

If that's what they want why not head to Africa?

Never said that Thailand belongs to the bottom.

But there are more than a few who enjoy living like a king in the middle of dismal poverty, especially the ones who are attracted by the more illicit things that go on rather unpunished in such places. Cambodia is a prime example, especially during the early days after UNTAC.

I can't say much about Africa, i have only been there once.

I suppose there are some who enjoy living among the poverty and I am not talking about those with a vocation to help!

Luckily I have never met any!

I am not talking about Thailand here though as its far from the bottom

[terry57]

And there must be a certain level of economic wealth in the local population for anyone to have a good life locally even if the farang has money.

If local conditions are bad its not worth being there - who would want to live like a king in the middle of poverty?

If that's what they want why not head to Africa?

Never said that Thailand belongs to the bottom.

But there are more than a few who enjoy living like a king in the middle of dismal poverty, especially the ones who are attracted by the more illicit things that go on rather unpunished in such places. Cambodia is a prime example, especially during the early days after UNTAC.

I can't say much about Africa, i have only been there once.

ive been to africa and the amount of blacks still living in poverty is obscene.

aparthite is still alive and kicking for much of the black people living on the streets and begging and stealing to survive.

people mention china.

i travelled there last year for 6 weeks covering hongkong to beijing. once again quality of life is rising but many chinese living in the gutters with nothing freezing and starving.

cambodia is a basket case still with overwelming poverty for much of the population.

ive spent considerable time there.

vietnam was not to bad and i would put them on equal level with the thai conpareing poverty levels.

out of all the third word countries ive travelled in, the thai are doing comparitively well talking all things into consideration.

they have the advantage of living in a warm enviroment, so they dont freeze to death and if worse comes to worse can always get some rice to eat at the local wat.

the ones that will suffer the most are the mentally ill.

thank you very much.

PS. thailand still looks very good when compared with other third world countries.

[ThaiGoon]

It doesn't matter if you can live a luxury life here or not. What matters is enough of the population live in poverty, without access to the modern hospitals, imported wine, servants and whatever luxury you are getting here that you couldn't afford in your North American home country.

Dive into the figures here:

http://www.unescap.org/stat/data/goalIndicatorArea.aspx

That number has been steadily declining since 1988. Take a look at the UN file I posted a few pages ago.

And wangsuda:

"I think given over all indices Thailand is not 3rd world in any technical sense" Bull. This is a country that, since its declared independence, has not figured out drainage. For hundreds of years, Thailand has faced flooding and heavy rainfall. And yet, with all the modernization, they STILL cannot do drainage.

Considering what happend in New Orleans after the hurricane Katrina hit the city, I guess the US fo A is quite a backwater country as well then. First world countries no longer have flood problems after heavy rainfall?

when they can equip their army without importing everything INCLUDING bullets,

Read: http://www.country-data.com/cgi-bin/query/r-13802.html. Being less ignorant might help as well.

when they can actually build a bridge, building, and/or transportation system without foreign help,

Another ignorant (if not moronic) statement. Go google for Thai construction companies. Yeah, they exist. And of course for huge projects, we still do need help from a foreign company, but even even the likes of Hong Kong and Taiwan still do as well. Does that make them third world as well?

Edited April 11, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[terry57]

I remain that there are some out here who couldn't say a nice thing about this place if there life was on the line.

So true.

very true, given the growing unrest in the south, the bombings in Bnagkok (more to come), and the coup, your life is very much going to be on the line. so why say anything nice given the reality that thailand is no longer the land of rainbows and lollipops. sorry you are in such denial

What an absurd statement. Your life is now on the line because of those reasons? How did the coup cause any potentail risk to your life? You got a heart attack everytime you see tank running around? The unrest in the South? If you don't live in the far South, there's more of a chance that you will catch Aids from a working girl than die from a bombing. Since the unrest has started from around the year 2000, tourists and expats in Thailand have died more from natural causes than being a victim in a terrorist act. In fact, I still haven't heard any story about a foreign even getting killed in down South. "The bombings in Bangkok (more to come)"..come on. Seriously, if you look at the history, there's a great danger of getting blown up by terrorists when you are in London or Madrid (or New York) than you are in Bangkok. What a ridiculous statement to make.

absolutely true statement mr goon, and all of your above statements are undeniable, based on fact and not knee jerk reactions.

common sense is lacking badly by some people on this forum.

thank you very much

[cdnvic]

There's too many people using the term third world as an insult, and others taking it as one.

There's nothing wrong with making an honest assessment of the state of the country, as that is the only way any form of progress can be successful. Regardless of the label you put on it, Thailand is what it is. Spending too much time arguing over what term to call it isn't accomplishing anything.

Edited April 11, 2007 by cdnvic

[mittheimp]

Thailand is a deveoping country -parts developed - but for the majority it is not. The advantage this country has over all others though is that you can eat amazingly well on very little money - might not be one of the development indicators, but i think for genuine quality of life its very important!

[ColPyat]

I guess the US fo A is quite a backwatre country as well then.

There are more than a few Europeans who would agree with this view.

[ColPyat]

The advantage this country has over all others though is that you can eat amazingly well on very little money -

That may be so if you are on a western salary level. But if you are on an average Thai labor salary then food here is very expensive, high quality food prohibitively so.

[mittheimp]

The advantage this country has over all others though is that you can eat amazingly well on very little money -

That may be so if you are on a western salary level. But if you are on an average Thai labor salary then food here is very expensive, high quality food prohibitively so.

a thai labour salery is, i believe, minimum of B200 a day. The quality of B20 rice dishes is not replicated any where else at that price!

i don't think you need to be on a western salary to eat well here at all!

[ThaiGoon]

That may be so if you are on a western salary level. But if you are on an average Thai labor salary then food here is very expensive, high quality food prohibitively so.

ColPyat, do you know where in the world high quality food is cheap and available to average folks? I'd like to visit that country sometime. And Thai food is very inexpensive and affordable, like mittheimp said, even to average Thais. I know because I'm an average Thai.

Edited April 11, 2007 by ThaiGoon

[terry57]

Thaigoon has pointed out the Gini Index and there are others such as the UN's HDI which has Thailand at 74 in the world in 2006

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_count...Index#endnote_2

I think given over all indices Thailand is not 3rd world in any technical sense if the term 3rd world can have a technical meaning any more! NIC (Newly Industrialised Country) is the correct term for Thailand now I believe.

The term 3rd world is used here and on other forums as a catch all though.

Would Amyarta Sen be talking about Thailand developing now with a recent coup to end democracy and not forgetting the rampant endemic corruption and patchy rule of law

I think many here are discussing apples and oranges when they discuss 3rd world - there is the hard technical figures as opposed to the soft corruption et al which has such an adverse affect on quality of life.

"I think given over all indices Thailand is not 3rd world in any technical sense" Bull. This is a country that, since its declared independence, has not figured out drainage. For hundreds of years, Thailand has faced flooding and heavy rainfall. And yet, with all the modernization, they STILL cannot do drainage. When they can properly drain their roadways, when they can equip their army without importing everything INCLUDING bullets, when they can actually build a bridge, building, and/or transportation system without foreign help, then they are truly industrialized, or first world.

i find your post confusing and misguided.

are you telling me that the skytrain and subway systems are substandard, and as far as buildings go,

what about the new paragon, siam centre and the numourous skyscrapers that are going up around bangkok?

are these going to fall over?

what about the road systems. the last time i travelled up north there were new concrete highways leading every where and one cant complain about the new skyways that criss cross bangkok.

as far as drainage goes the thais are up against a huge challenge because of a rising water table so its going to be a hard slog to overcome this one and they aint the only country to face this challenge.( rome for one example ).

every time i come to bangkok ( 3 times a year) im impressed with the ongoing projects and continuing progress that is on going.

after all is said and done, for an asian country they are doing very well.

[ThaiGoon]

The advantage this country has over all others though is that you can eat amazingly well on very little money -

That may be so if you are on a western salary level. But if you are on an average Thai labor salary then food here is very expensive, high quality food prohibitively so.

a thai labour salery is, i believe, minimum of B200 a day. The quality of B20 rice dishes is not replicated any where else at that price!

i don't think you need to be on a western salary to eat well here at all!

Exactly!

[ColPyat]

The advantage this country has over all others though is that you can eat amazingly well on very little money -

That may be so if you are on a western salary level. But if you are on an average Thai labor salary then food here is very expensive, high quality food prohibitively so.

a thai labour salery is, i believe, minimum of B200 a day. The quality of B20 rice dishes is not replicated any where else at that price!

i don't think you need to be on a western salary to eat well here at all!

Minimum day wage is about 170 Baht. In the provinces often far less.

20 Baht dishes at food stalls use lowest quality rice, veggies, meat and oil. Let just think about three dishes a day, that would make at least 60 Baht for food alone per person. What about the children? Basically, even with lowest quality food many people spend between 30% and 50% of their income for food alone, if they would eat 20 Baht meals.

Maybe you should have a look at the average dinner of an average working class family - not exactly appetizing.

In poor villages food is even more basic - rarely any meat, consists mostly of collected veggies. Often when there is not enough money left over in the dry season and no seasonal labor available then rice is substituted by wild manioc collected in the forests.

Sometimes a bit of meat from rats, snakes and birds that were hunted is added, but often those trophies are sold for the necessities that need money.

Not to be mistaken here - not all Thais live like this, of course. But a large sector of society does live like this, and in slight variations.

[ColPyat]

That may be so if you are on a western salary level. But if you are on an average Thai labor salary then food here is very expensive, high quality food prohibitively so.

ColPyat, do you know where in the world high quality food is cheap and available to average folks? I'd like to visit that country sometime. And Thai food is very inexpensive and affordable, like mittheimp said, even to average Thais. I know because I'm an average Thai.

I am sorry, don't wanna step on your toes. But you are hardly what would be an average Thai. Average Thais usually do not get to study in the states. That's either people from rather privileged backgrounds, or a few exceptionally intelligent and talented people from the lower classes lucky enough to secure a scholarship.

In most developed countries food does not eat up such a large proportion of the available income as it does in Thailand even though more expensive. That is why it is comparatively more expensive here.

[Prakanong]

That may be so if you are on a western salary level. But if you are on an average Thai labor salary then food here is very expensive, high quality food prohibitively so.

ColPyat, do you know where in the world high quality food is cheap and available to average folks? I'd like to visit that country sometime. And Thai food is very inexpensive and affordable, like mittheimp said, even to average Thais. I know because I'm an average Thai.

Singapore ;-))))

Feel sorry for me though - I have heard food in the PI is not so hot and I am heading to the airport in 15 for a 2 week biz trip there.

[ThaiGoon]

ColPyat, the poorest of the poor will always have trouble feeding themselves anywhere in this world, not just in Thailand. It's just a moot point to use their way of living as a standard. The good news is the number of the poor has been declining in Thailand. And I don't think it's fair to keep measuring Thailand up to the developed nations, as Thailand is still not one of them.

[Prakanong]

"In most developed countries food does not eat up such a large proportion of the available income as it does in Thailand even though more expensive. That is why it is comparatively more expensive here."

I would like to know the proportion of the average income a Thai spends on food - I have no clue

I weas recently reading that in the UK though the % of the average income spent on food has fallen dramatically - if i remember correctly form 50%+ to circa 33% - i may be wrong on the %'s but i know it has fallen a lot

I think the source may have been "The Undercover Economist"

[canuckamuck]

I have spent much time in huts;

thai visa quote of the day.

Agreed. By the way, do you think you could change your avatar some time? It makes me wince every time I see it.

Hey dantilley:

I like my avater but i thought i would help you with yours

it might take a bit to load, its 230k

"I have spent much time in Photoshop"

[ColPyat]

ColPyat, the poorest of the poor will always have trouble feeding themselves anywhere in this world, not just in Thailand. It's just a moot point to use their way of living as a standard. The good news is the number of the poor has been declining in Thailand. And I don't think it's fair to keep measuring Thailand up to the developed nations, as Thailand is still not one of them.

It's always difficult making statements about rise or decline of the amount of the poor, especially because the definition of poverty does vary. During Thaksin's era the official number has, according to the statistics, declined rapidly. But i take those statistics with a bit of a grain of salt, especially because the TRT government was known to be a bit liberal with interpretation of statistics in their favor.

Fact is, and i believe you can accept that as well, that Thailand still does have big problems with poverty. I don't measure Thailand with fully developed nations. I mostly measure Thailand with Malaysia, and it is obvious that Malaysia has a far larger middle class.

Thailand is living below its potential, and has so for decades.

I am though not as optimistic as you are about Thailand's future. I was once, before '97, but then i was woken up out of my naivety when Thailand's self made problems became obvious. And until today no earnest attempt has been made by any government to tackle problems such as decentralizing industry, lowering wealth distribution and income gap, introducing a long necessary land reform.

And now, we are getting only more of the usual inactivity paired with paying lip service by the powers to be, a "national economic policy" that consists of no scientific data, cannot be openly criticized. While many neighboring countries are actively working on pragmatically developing their societies, Thailand is caught up in ideological views on how the ideal Thai society should look like.

[ThaiGoon]

Also, ColPyat, by being an average Thai, I mean I regularly eat food from street vendors. And the data regarding the number of the poor in Thailand I refered to was from the UN file I posted. It shows that the number has been declining since 1988.

Edited April 11, 2007 by ThaiGoon