Why is there such a disdain of foreigners

[talahtnut]

Disdain for foreigners is everywhere,

its a natural reflex response when we meet

anyone, we size em up and decide if they they

are friend or foe, its our tribal instinct which

protects our well being. No one can avoid doing

it.  Works on religion, class and animals too.

 

 

[RichardColeman]

My useless so called father-in-law almost punched me when I first met him, so angry was he that his daughter had married a farang. 

 

He would much rather she had stayed with her wife beating, drunken, abusive adulterous husband as he was Thai and more hi-so than me. 

[ThomasThBKK]

36 minutes ago, Bangkok Barry said:

No, but I do know the names of leaders who do play a major part in world affairs. And they don't include any of the above, or Thailand. All little backwater countries with no influence anywhere or in anything.

You can ask around how many europeans or americans know the exact name of the south korean, japanese, chinese, brazilians, mexican, indonesian, saudi arabia leaders, many will not. Most will not.

 

These are all top 20 economies by GDP. No excuse to not know them, but i bet most don't know them. Me included. 

 

 

 

 

[drbeach]

Barry, you raise some very good points. However, it is naive to think that past colonization still impact modern ways of thinking or legal systems in the formerly colonized countries. You need to look past that because it's blinding you from seeing the obvious.

 

Look at Vietnam. It's Communist now. About the only vestiges of French colonization left are some examples of crumbling colonial architecture and an ability to bake baguettes. Their legal system is littered with even more minefields than the Thai one. Criticism of the government is totally illegal and gets you thrown in the slammer. Locals outside of the cities look at foreigners like aliens. That doesn't happen even in Thailand. Also, many hotels in Vietnam don't allow foreigners to stay even during normal times. During the current crisis, a large percentage of hotels have implemented a "no foreigner" policy.

 

Laos is broadly similar, though the people are more similar to Thais.

 

Myanmar might as well never have been colonized. I run a business there and with the exception of a few colonial era buildings in Yangon and Pyin Oo Lwin, Burma looks like it has less European influence than Thailand. English is more rarely seen than in Thailand...very rarely appearing on road signs aside from a couple of major trunk routes. They even drive on the right, while Thailand drives on the left.

 

The other thing that you missed is that despite appearing to be neutral, Thailand has been influenced by European culture through the Monarchy. During WW2, Thailand became a Japanese colony and after that, a quasi-American colony for a few decades.

 

It's an Asian thing and perhaps a military thing in Thailand's case, which explains why educational standards are so limited and people are as brainwashed as they are. Even in more developed countries like Singapore it's not much better. Try getting anyone there to see how stifling the political climate is in that country - it's virtually impossible. Locals will think you're crazy and shun you. They see their country as a land of milk and honey, everything runs perfectly so what's wrong with it? They'll point out how there's no crime, while America is full of crime and racial problems, poverty, people living on the streets. You'll never win an argument with Singaporeans.

 

Thais may be naive too, but surely locals don't all think their country is perfect. They know the infrastructure is poor, that it's cities are badly designed, that air pollution is frighteningly bad, that their government is inept and corrupt. However, there is still an aspect of blind patriotism that blinds Thais to the disturbing reality of just how bad things are here. Although they may be better than in Vietnam, Myanmar, Cambodia and Laos, but only just.

[drbeach]

2 minutes ago, RichardColeman said:

My useless so called father-in-law almost punched me when I first met him, so angry was he that his daughter had married a farang. 

 

He would much rather she had stayed with her wife beating, drunken, abusive adulterous husband as he was Thai and more hi-so than me. 

That's insane, but I doubt if that's reflective of Thai father in laws as a whole. Many Thai father in laws are very happy to see their daughters in relationships with foreigners.

[drbeach]

1 hour ago, medic5678 said:

I've only been in Thailand for a few weeks at any one stretch.   Everyone has seemed very nice to me.  I don't stay in tourist areas at all.  I do know that a lot of Western men look at Thai women as objects to be used and generally make asses of themselves, which only reinforces the stereotype.   I've been respectful and everyone has respected me.   Of course, when we go to a hotel, my wife gets the room and I stay out of sight to avoid paying the Farang price :).  Thais know they're screwed day in and day out by the system.  But what can they do about it?  No use to dwell on it.

Hardly any hotels have a 'farang price'. If you're worried, book online, which is what every normal person does anyway.

 

A few hotels occasionally employ a 'Thai residents price' but it's not necessarily cheaper than the standard rate you book online. Residents rates apply to both Thais and expats, can usually be booked online and may exclude breakfast. There is no universal policy whereby residents rates are cheaper than normal rates.

[PatOngo]

55 minutes ago, Nyezhov said:

Nobody likes me and I dont care.

You're ok, Nyezh! ????

[SteveK]

29 minutes ago, drbeach said:

Barry, you raise some very good points. However, it is naive to think that past colonization still impact modern ways of thinking or legal systems in the formerly colonized countries. You need to look past that because it's blinding you from seeing the obvious.

It still impacts Malaysia, where I have spent a fair bit of time. They have a well-developed education system based on the British-style of schooling which churns out people who can speak good English, and can point out a few countries on a map. The Malaysian students who studied at my university in the UK were extremely intelligent and knowledgeable and all spoke excellent English. Getting things done in Malaysia is much simpler in almost every regard. Malaysian children often attend private tutoring after school, meaning that they can be studying for 12 hours a day and they absolutely lap it up. They would appear to want to make the most of themselves and get ahead in life.

 

Whether it would have been the British or someone else, if Thailand had in fact been colonised I suspect that the following points would be true:

 

- They would be able to make sense of maps.

- They wouldn't be putting mayonnaise on pizzas.

- They would speak better English.

- Taking a train would be faster than going by car.

- Market traders wouldn't need a calculator to figure out 150 x 2.

- They would almost certainly know more about the world they live in.

- They would probably have a more effective system of government.

- The streets wouldn't have tons of impossibly tangled cabling suspended in midair.

- They would have realised that beef is much tastier than pork.

 

Obviously I am having a bit of fun here, but if Thailand had been colonised, they could have absorbed the good things about the new culture and ignored the rest, the foreign invaders wouldn't have been around for long anyway. Many times I have had a Thai person smugly tell me how they resisted colonisation, and I feel like saying "well, look where that got you!".

Edited April 2, 2020 by SteveK

[drbeach]

1 hour ago, Number 6 said:

Just like Myanmar? Bangladesh? Pakistan?

 

India is always one step to anarchy as well.

 

Kenya? Tanzania?

 

Exactly. As bad as Thailand's educational standards are...they could be worse.

 

Past colonization is irrelevant considering few people alive today remember it. Once the British and the French left, they left behind some colonial buildings and some minor influences on the food culture, but that's about it. The British left disgusting toast bread, while the French taught the Vietnamese how to bake proper bread. The Vietnamese ruined it by adding some weird meat concoction they call pate.

 

Whoobty doo.

 

In all my travels and experiences living abroad in Asia, Thailand is about the most 'international' place I've lived in or been to, aside from Malaysia and Singapore (former British colonies). Myanmar, Cambodia and Vietnam are far down the scale. Most people in these countries are less used to seeing foreigners than Thais are.

 

Thailand and Thais may deserve their criticism, but not anymore than people in neighboring countries. I laugh when Thai-bashers try to pretend that the Khmers are more 'worldly' or 'civilized'. Actually, if past experience is any guide, Khmers have resorted to uncivilized pack rioting more times than I can count, from the 2003 anti-Thai riots in Phnom Penh to any time a Vietnamese minister says something even slightly critical of Cambodia (or tells the truth) to the riots at the Rong Kluea border market after copyrighted goods were confiscated by Thai officials. Khmers have a real 'mob mentality' who don't tolerate the slightest criticisms, like a spoilt child.

 

Yes I realize Thais may not be much better, but they're certainly not quite that bad.

 

[drbeach]

13 minutes ago, SteveK said:

It still impacts Malaysia, where I have spent a fair bit of time. They have a well-developed education system based on the British-style of schooling which churns out people who can speak good English, and can point out a few countries on a map. The Malaysian students who studied at my university in the UK were extremely intelligent and knowledgeable and all spoke excellent English. Getting things done in Malaysia is much simpler in almost every regard. Malaysian children often attend private tutoring after school, meaning that they can be studying for 12 hours a day and they absolutely lap it up. They would appear to want to make the most of themselves and get ahead in life.

 

Whether it would have been the British or someone else, if Thailand had in fact been colonised I suspect that the following points would be true:

 

- They would have learned to plan ahead and to be able to think beyond the end of the current day.

- They would be able to make sense of maps.

- They wouldn't be putting mayonnaise on pizzas.

- They would speak better English.

- Taking a train would be faster than going by car.

- Market traders wouldn't need a calculator to figure out 150 x 2.

- They would almost certainly know more about the world they live in.

- They would have a more effective system of government.

- The streets wouldn't have tons of impossibly tangled cabling suspended in midair.

- They would have realised that beef is much tastier than pork.

 

Obviously I am having a bit of fun here, but if Thailand had been colonised, they could have absorbed the good things about the new culture and ignored the rest, the foreign invaders wouldn't have been around for long anyway. Many times I have had a Thai person smugly tell me how they resisted colonisation, and I feel like saying "well, look where that got you!".

Wrong.

 

Read my next reply.

 

Malaysia and Singapore are obvious exceptions but not necessarily due to colonialism. Myanmar is FAR worse than Thailand, despite having been colonized.

 

Most Burmese have never seen a foreigner before, are not used to dealing with us and they have no rule of law. It's mob rule. Armed militia groups call the shots in many places. Every single dealing with anyone pits you, the foreigner, against the locals. Whether it's dual pricing (most hotels have a dual pricing policy), or entry to various tourist attractions, or whether you as a foreigner can travel to a particular part of the country (travel restrictions in many parts of the country prohibit all foreigners from entering), it's a minefield. Not to mention foreigners can't get any sort of loan in the country, period. Tourists and business people are prohibited from staying in private homes.

 

I'd put it down to good governance in the period SINCE colonization. Malaysia however isn't necessarily the best example - due to rampant discrimination, most of the non-Malays have left the country for Australia, Great Britain and elsewhere to escape the "Bumiputera" laws that legally discriminate against Chinese, Indians and other groups.

 

Anyway, are you saying NO Thais attend private tutoring? You need to get out more...plenty of educated Thais out there, 'tiger moms' who will do anything to make sure their children succeed. You might need to hang out with the upper middle classes more, rather than the village bumpkins, which from personal experience, are not necessarily more educated in Malaysia than their Thai counterparts.

Edited April 2, 2020 by drbeach

[SteveK]

9 minutes ago, drbeach said:

Most of the non-Malays have left the country for Australia, Great Britain and elsewhere to escape the "Bumiputera" laws

Absolute rubbish.

 

Sure there are plenty of well-educated Thais, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule. All depends on how much their parents were able or willing to shell out on an education at a surprise, surprise, "international school".

 

And I agree, Myanmar is certainly a bit of a basket case compared to Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong etc.

Edited April 2, 2020 by SteveK

[DPKANKAN]

What you did not mention was if Thailand was under British rule, then the cost of living here would be the same as back home!!!

Also my understanding is that at the end of WW2 this was going to be a UK colony. We stripped the railway line out and sold it back to the Thais. The only reason it is not a British colony is the US did not want us getting our hands on it and opened as Embassy in Bangkok thus stopping it happening. ????????????????

 

[drbeach]

Some people on this thread are resorting to fallacies like glorifying colonialism as if that 'civilized the savages'. A common excuse of colonial apologists.

 

Aside from the obvious discriminatory tone of such viewpoints, they are remarkably flawed too. Given colonization ended just after WW2, it's blatantly absurd to claim that that would impact how a society is run or how people in those countries see the world today.

 

The methods of governance since colonization matter far more. Countries that have descended into chaos since, such as Myanmar (then Burma) have gone back almost to the dark ages, and are still struggling to emerge into modern, civilized society now. From my own personal experiences of years traveling in and doing business in that country, I can say with absolute confidence, that Burmese people are a lot less civilized than their Thai counterparts. Starting from the way they drive, their callous disregard of road rules and how they triple park and block traffic trying to get through, to starting fights for the slightest transgressions, I wouldn't call Burmese people more 'civilized'. They are far more entitled and childish than Thais. The country is far less developed, and militia groups rule half the country.

 

I've already pointed out how this applies to Khmers too. Laotians are similar to Thais, while Viets are more frugal and able to handle hardships better than Thais due to frequent wars and crushing poverty, limited living space and crowded cities, but when the SHTF, they too resort to violence and aggressiveness and foreigners are an easy target.

 

Singapore has had good governance since the end of colonial rule and Malaysia's has been OK except for the period when they decided to stop teaching English for a few decades. Their discriminatory Bumiputera policies haven't helped though - a huge brain drain has resulted. Yes the infrastructure is better than Thailand's - although that's mainly limited to major roads and cities. In the countryside, the infrastructure is about the same as Thailand.

 

India is a joke...half the people don't know what a toilet is. Britain certainly didn't much to 'civilize' those folk did it?

[ivor bigun]

3 hours ago, wotsdermatter said:

I had a Thai girl-friend who spoke very good English and one day during a conversation I told her that Thais wanted all of the 21st Century technology but had trouble working it with their 16th Century brains and the associated level of intelligence.  She refused to talk to me for a week.  Then I had to go to Hong Kong and took her along.  The day before we had to return to Thailand, she sheepishly told me that she finally understood what I meant by my remark.

'nuf sed

After living in the UK for 7 years ,my wife understands as well , also a few of her family have traveled abroad for holidays ,i think they understand as well.

[drbeach]

7 minutes ago, SteveK said:

Absolute rubbish.

 

Sure there are plenty of well-educated Thais, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule. All depends on how much their parents were able or willing to shell out on an education at a surprise, surprise, "international school".

 

And I agree, Myanmar is certainly a bit of a basket case compared to Malaysia, Singapore, Hong Kong etc.

Absolute truth. Your cognitive dissonance is certainly stark here.

 

Tons of Chinese and Indian Malays have left Malaysia for greener pastures. Why wouldn't they, given how discriminated they are back home?

 

"An exception rather than the rule"? Sure, there are far more poorly educated masses in Thailand than middle and upper class educated Thais, but one walk inside a high-end mall confirms that the numbers of the latter aren't as tiny as you think.

 

Again, I suggest you get out of the villages and see Thailand for what it really is - a contrast of masses of the underclasses with a significant middle class who mainly live in the cities and in more upmarket beach resort areas.

[bkk6060]

I see it as a minor issue compared to the hate and disdain between foreigners.

Everyone seems to hate anyone from another country.  Thai negativity seems minimal compared to it.

[SteveK]

1 minute ago, drbeach said:

Again, I suggest you get out of the villages and see Thailand for what it really is.

Yes that's right, I've only been here a few weeks and have spent all my time in "the villages".

 

Never mind.

[drbeach]

SteveK, I should also point out that there is a disproportionate number of Malay and Singaporean online trolls on various Fora and public Facebook pages who have a total disdain for western foreigners. Asean Nikkei Review sees a lot of anti-western comments, the majority made by people from these two countries.

 

I can't tell you how many Malays (often ethnic Chinese ones) who hate farang with a passion. They think we're crude, uneducated, only care about hookers. Go to the Bangkok Post comments section. A guy calling himself "Unig" has an avatar with an elderly western male and a Thai prostitute in the picture. The caption says "walking ATM". Just about all of his comments are anti-farang.

 

By contrast (and I am fluent in Thai BTW) there are far fewer anti-farang Thais who go all over social media spewing anti western bigotry. Sure, I'm not saying that Thais love farang...many don't like us, but at the end of the day, we're more of an annoyance than the cause of their problems. Most Thais are criticizing the government and few are walking around with a chip on their shoulders like said Malaysians and Chinese who are constantly crying "racism".

 

Case in point, some Singaporean-Chinese guy is accusing the Australian government of racism because of it's ban on most foreigners entering that country as a result of the corona virus situation. Strangely, that guy decided to post his comments on the Australians in Thailand Facebook page. Maybe he lives in Thailand, but he's not Thai. Why not post on the Singaporean page? What about criticizing the fact that the Singaporean government has now issued a blanket ban on ALL foreigners entering? Crickets, of course...because it doesn't suit his narrative.

[Happy Grumpy]

4 hours ago, 4MyEgo said:

 

My wife has never seen Thailand so clearer since she lived with me abroad for 9 years, she hates it !!!

Another Thai saved by the White Knight.

 

They are good at saying what others want to hear, eh. 

[drbeach]

12 minutes ago, SteveK said:

Yes that's right, I've only been here a few weeks and have spent all my time in "the villages".

 

Never mind.

I never said that Thais are perfect or aren't brainwashed. A great many of them are. I am constantly pointing this out. But I'm also smart enough to realize you can't make sweeping generalizations like that. Obviously you have an agenda.

 

Thailand is far more developed than any of it's direct neighboring countries (and I mean 30-40 years ahead) with the exception of Malaysia. That in itself says something.

 

However, I realize that the country is still far, far behind the developed Asian nations or western countries.

 

Keep in mind though, that Thailand is in Asia. Asian people and cultures are broadly similar. This explains why Thailand has far more in common with Vietnamese, Chinese, Malaysian, Indonesian and Japanese people than it ever will have with westerners.

Colonization means little to nothing. Most of the colonies were limited in terms of how far their influence went. Most of the highland regions of Vietnam, due to poor infrastructure, were never really affected by French colonization. You can never take the Asian mentality out of Asians. Colonization or not. Period. End of discussion. EDIT: a singular exception can perhaps be made for western born Asians (yellow outside, white inside) who grow up with western friends and who don't experience Asian culture. But that's about it.

Edited April 2, 2020 by drbeach

[SteveK]

4 minutes ago, drbeach said:

Obviously you have an agenda.

And I suspect you are now going to tell me about my agenda.....

[Enzian]

There are a great many good history books on the cultural struggles and learning curve (or lack thereof) Thailand has had with the practice and legacy of both western and what we may call asian colonialism (as with Japan in WW2, and including the general Chinese influence).  A recent one I recommend is by Wasana Wongsurawat; in the past few months I've heard her speak at the Foreign Correspondents Club of Thailand and at the Siam Society. To be on the safe side I will not cite the title of her 2019 book but you can look it up in a second. The struggle has always been a matter of adapting to the "other" while at the same time maintaining one's own identity, thus the resulting love/hate relationship. 

Someone mentioned that China has a writer who received the Nobel prize in literature, while Thailand has not. But how many know that the following writers were considered but passed up for the Nobel prize in literature: Leo Tolstoy, Henry James, Mark Twain, Joseph Conrad, James Joyce, Jorge Luis Borges, Marcel Proust, George Orwell, Vladimir Nabokov, Thomas Pynchon. That prize is meaningless.

Edited April 2, 2020 by Enzian
spring error

[rasmus5150]

1 hour ago, Sanchoneymar said:

WHAT GOES AROUND COMES,  when your folks bash other nationalities on TV,  did you ask same questions? NO , now you're here to talk your blah blah, 

The soul that has conceived one wickedness can nurse no good thereafter. 

 

It is not fair to ask of others what you are not willing to do yourself.
 

Karma comes after everyone eventually. You can't get away with screwing people over your whole life, I don't care who you are. What goes around comes around. That's how it works. Sooner or later the universe will serve you the revenge that you deserve. Quit bashing others , so you won't be bashed .

 

I guess that's why the whole world is infected with Covid-19

[chessman]

I occasionally look at threads like this and react with a mix of sadness and bafflement. I've 'only' been here about 10 years but haven't experienced this. There's more 'disdain' towards Thais in the 6 pages of this thread than I have recieved during my entire time here.

 

Are there moments of frustration? Sure!

Is the immigration system inefficent and daft? Absolutely!

But is that because of disdain? I strongly doubt it.

 

I worry that threads like this serve to amplify prejudices, everybody sharing their theories and anecdotes and putting the boot in until it becomes the only truth that some people can see.

 

 

[Bangkok Barry]

2 hours ago, pdtokyo said:

3 hours ago, Nyezhov said:

Nobody likes me and I dont care.

Possibly nobody likes you because you don't care ...

 

... but finally ... a bit of empathy ... even if it's only empathy for yourself, it's a start.

That's a small adaptation from Everybody Hates Us and We Don't Care, the chant of London football team Millwall supporters, Maybe he is one ????

[Bangkok Barry]

2 hours ago, Sanchoneymar said:

I really like your post for telling the truth., guys like you are few on here .

 

When I read comments on TV, makes me laughter,  how people racially abuse others from other countries,  it shows that those type of people lack manners and home training from their parents , I've been here for a very long time , reading but never commented and abuse others , but I see many jealous and ignorant folks who when outside they keep their mouth shut for fear of being beaten up , but while they're on tv , they grow chicken wings , lol

I think you confuse racial abuse with justified and often constructive criticism, two very different things.

[Just Weird]

"Why is there such a disdain of foreigners?"

Possibly those people who you claim have such a disdain of foreigners read Thaivisa members' comments about Thais and Thailand!  

 

Maybe you should read your own OP, that may give you a clue also.

[CharlieK]

6 hours ago, wotsdermatter said:

There is no such thing you mention, an inflated superiority complex.  A superiority complex is defined as an inflated sense of being better than others and a prime example of such is a person having the feeling of self-importance to always talk about how they can do everything better than others.  The best way to deal with such people is to not pick a verbal fight with them because you will lose.  Instead aim for short, sharp responses that will make them think hard about what they are doing (and give them time to do this).  In the end, if they cannot move from their self imposed position of superiority and insist on taking more than they give, then go elsewhere.  If they are friends, dump them.  The same goes for never arguing with an idiot, a person on the lowest level of any IQ scale.  Such a person will beat you down and win by experience.

 

Clinical Psychologist, retired.

What's your diagnosis for posters who self transfer an OP's problem to themselves and then go off on a negative rant as to why they will leave asap.  

[Bangkok Barry]

3 hours ago, drbeach said:

However, it is naive to think that past colonization still impact modern ways of thinking or legal systems in the formerly colonized countries. You need to look past that because it's blinding you from seeing the obvious.

In the Portillo series, those he spoke to very much appreciated the advances that their 'colonial masters' introduced, believing they had laid excellent foundations and led to the countries being as prosperous as they are today. Of course, I have no idea whether they edited the programmes to fit their own agenda.

 

2 hours ago, drbeach said:

Aside from the obvious discriminatory tone of such viewpoints, they are remarkably flawed too. Given colonization ended just after WW2, it's blatantly absurd to claim that that would impact how a society is run or how people in those countries see the world today.

My response is as above.

 

2 hours ago, drbeach said:

The methods of governance since colonization matter far more. Countries that have descended into chaos since, such as Myanmar (then Burma) have gone back almost to the dark ages, and are still struggling to emerge into modern, civilized society now.

Agreed. Some have gone backwards since their 'masters' left, especially if the military is involved (Thailand to follow?) So, colonial rule was good for them, and the country has gone backwards since it was left to rule itself.

 

2 hours ago, drbeach said:

India is a joke...half the people don't know what a toilet is. Britain certainly didn't much to 'civilize' those folk did it?

Probably too difficult to change a billion people, but they do have a decent legal system and a very extensive, efficient and much used railway infrastructure as a result of British rule. I love the way you can order a meal while on the train and it's there for delivery at your seat when you arrive at a station en-route, by the way. Grab on steroids. There were dreadful atrocities during colonial rule which partly led to Gandhi's rise (I once spent an entire summer studying his life), but the positives surely outweighed the negatives.

 

2 hours ago, drbeach said:

Singapore has had good governance since the end of colonial rule

Indeed it has, on foundations laid by colonialists. There are many, some on this forum, who condemn what is effectively a one-party system there, but it has led to great prosperity, I believe the second best for its people in Asia, and made the country one of the most successful and least corrupt in the world.

Anyway. Thank you for your interesting and informed comments.

[4MyEgo]

2 hours ago, Happy Grumpy said:

Another Thai saved by the White Knight.

 

They are good at saying what others want to hear, eh. 

Far from being a white knight.

 

I suppose if yours is that way inclined, mine has a mind of her own, unlike some.

 

Are you sure your a Happy Grumpy ?