Trump says U.S. investigating whether virus came from Wuhan lab

[Throatwobbler]

1 minute ago, Ireland32 said:

Wuhan China Virus China Responsible, doesn’t matter what this idiot Says  

Any proof?

[Chomper Higgot]

4 minutes ago, Ireland32 said:

Wuhan China Virus China Responsible, doesn’t matter what this idiot Says  

Well we know Trump ‘takes no responsibility at all’.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Chomper Higgot

[Ireland32]

13 minutes ago, Zikomat said:

Yeah, look better at the virus in the microscope. There must be Made in China somewhere on it.

Trump is doing what he can do the best: witch hunting.

Why is everyone blaming trump for this Wuhsn Virus , Unbelievable China Trolls   

[The Barmbeker]

Can we - ust for the moment- concentrate on finding a cure and get our lives back, in any way.

Pointing fingers, blaming each other and making up BS can wait unti afterwards!

[BKKBike09]

China's only BSL-4 lab is in Wuhan, cleared to that standard in 2017. It was studying bat coronavirus, using samples gathered in Yunnan. US Embassy officials visited the lab on more than one occasion shortly after it was BSL-4 certified and expressed concerns to USGOV about safety. Those concerns were ignored.

 

My money is on human error. Pure and simple. Someone screwed up and the virus got out. But in a country where admission it was human error is highly unlikely, we will probably never know. So many accidents result from a series of small and in themselves inconsequential human errors that build on each other.

 

Remember Chernobyl? "Why don't we trying turning off the cooling system and see what happens?" That went well.

[rudi49jr]

10 minutes ago, Ireland32 said:

Why is everyone blaming trump for this Wuhsn Virus , Unbelievable China Trolls   

Nobody is blaming Trump for this virus, just for the way he handled (i.e. bungled) the whole thing when it hit the USA. Can you see the difference?

[4MyEgo]

It has already been proven by two Phd qualified studies that it didn't originate from a lab, it's a spin off from the 2003 Sars virus, doesn't he read or get updated, if it was made in a lab it wouldn't have the same type of protein (back bone) that they found in the Covid-19.

 

We know you are just trying to deflect as you always do as opposed to man up and say, you fk'd up by not protecting the USA citizens when you first knew about this outbreak, can you charge a President for neglecting his duty, should be charged for countless deaths due to his inabilities to see past his own nose.

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, wasabi said:

 

I will be voting for Trump and the more it upsets people the more I enjoy doing so. Biden is about mid way through Dementia. I don't like Trump's style but the media narrative about what he has and hasn't accomplished does not drive my decision.

How about a decent presidential candidate from the GOP? Or is Trump the best they have?

[OneMoreFarang]

1 hour ago, J Town said:

Even like the broken watch, though. I saw a Youtube investigative report, about an hour long, about China developing this virus and it looked VERY convincing. Bottom line, NO one will ever really know where this thing came from. Even if a White House report comes out stating that indeed China created it, nobody could possibly believe it because of the MOUNTAIN of lies this administration uses as its foundation.

I read a couple of comments from scientist who specialize in that field. All of them agree the virus was not man-made in any lab. But obviously conspiracy minded people just don't care what experts say.

[Kerryd]

I theorized this MONTHS ago !

I've written about it here on TV.

Fact: The RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) escorted a Chinese scientist, her husband (also a scientist) and her students from a Level 4 Bio Research lab in Canada last JULY. Her and her students were were being investigated over "policy breaches".
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/chinese-researcher-escorted-from-infectious-disease-lab-amid-rcmp-investigation-1.5211567

She made regular trips back and forth to China and had been "invited" to work at China's only Level 4 Research lab - built in Wuhan.

In August it was discovered that "someone" had shipped live virus samples to Beijing back in March of 2019 - though they say that no coronavirus samples were included.
"Scientists at the National Microbiology Lab sent live Ebola and Henipah viruses to Beijing on an Air Canada flight March 31"

It was 2 months after that shipment that a report was made to the RCMP and they, a couple of weeks later, escorted those scientists from the lab.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/ebola-henipah-china-1.5232674

It was even noted that at one point, the IT staff at the lab went in (at night) and replaced the scientists computers (no explanation given for why but probably helped them decide to go to the police about her activities).

As of October of last year, the investigation was still ongoing with no explanation of what those "policy breaches" entailed.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/national-microbiology-lab-scientist-investigation-china-1.5307424

(Oh yeah, those scientists also had their security clearances revoked so it probably involved a little more than padding an expense claim.)

I read a Stanford Medical paper on the virus 3 days ago that claimed the virus "probably" evolved naturally. However, they then outright contradicted themselves by claiming that an "engineered virus" would (normally) be built on the "backbone" of another virus, but further into the report they claimed that the covid-19 was similar in many was to coronavirus strains found in bats and pangolins.  

(Almost like it had been built on the "backbone" of one of those viruses.)

They then further suggested that 2 features of the covid-19 virus were perfectly suited to attacking human cells. One feature "perfectly" allows the virus to attach to the cell and the other feature "perfectly" allows it to cleave into the cell and infect it.

(A little too perfectly for something that supposedly evolved in nature, in animals.)

They also speculated that either the virus had evolved (to be perfectly suitable to attacking human cells) in animals - or in an intermediary. (Like a petri dish in a research lab perhaps ?) 

Almost as though this virus was built on the backbone of an animal virus, then genetically modified and cultured in an lab (which would be the perfect "intermediary" would it not ?
Considering how many people were infected and how fast this spread, the idea that it was all the result of some people eating "live bats" is ridiculous.

(Lol - the link to the research paper is gone now ! I'd been trying to get a hold of them to question their findings, not that I actually expected them to answer me or anything.)

Even the Chinese gave up on the "live animal" theory weeks ago and started blaming the US Army for the virus ! They were actually putting out the story in the state run media that the virus had been developed by the US Army who they claimed then snuck it into China and released it in Wuhan !!!
Last March:
"Foreign ministry spokesman Zhao Lijian, in tweets last week in both Mandarin and English, suggested that "patient zero" in the global pandemic may have come from the United States -- not the Chinese metropolis of Wuhan.

"It might be US army who brought the epidemic to Wuhan. Be transparent! Make public your data! US owe us an explanation," tweeted Zhao, who is known for his provocative statements on social media."
https://www.bangkokpost.com/world/1880495/us-china-play-coronavirus-blame-game
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/13/world/asia/coronavirus-china-conspiracy-theory.html

It is far more likely that this virus was engineered in a lab, based on existing viruses and modified to make it more efficient at infecting humans.
It is far more likely that someone may have been infected with this in the lab and then spread it (probably unknowingly) to friends and family outside of the lab, who the spread to others (like maybe when visiting a "wet market").

Oh nice - just found another article where they note that "bat research" was being done at a different lab, where one of the researchers had been "attacked and urinated on" by the bats and (supposedly) put himself in a 14 day quarantine.

That lab is located a whole 280 meters from the animal market this outbreak supposedly started in.

The article notes there are many theories about where this virus originated from, but few answers.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/coronavirus-spreads-leads-theories-origin-200407073509327.html

Keep in mind, the experts say the virus could not have been engineered in a lab. What they mean is - it couldn't have been "invented" or "built from scratch" as a brand new, never before seen, virus. 
However, that does NOT mean that someone didn't take an existing virus and modify it in a lab.

Like the Stanford paper noted, it would have to have been built on the "backbone" of another virus. In a lab. (After which it could have, probably would have, been incubated in live animals and then sampled and modified again and again until they had the result they wanted or answered the questions they'd been asking.)

Edited April 16, 2020 by Kerryd

[Isaan sailor]

Reading the responses to this point, I am struck by the irony.  CCP issues statements suggesting Wuhan virus originated in one particular wet market.  And two weeks ago, they even accused the US military of creating the virus.  The Trump administration ponders the Chinese viral lab located near this wet market as the source.  

And by their vitriolic comments, TV posters seem to believe the Chinese Communist story—stunning.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Isaan sailor

[Eric Loh]

2 minutes ago, Isaan sailor said:

Reading the responses to this point, I am struck by the irony.  CCP issues statements suggesting Wuhan virus originated in one particular wet market.  And two weeks ago, they even accused the US military of creating the virus.  The Trump administration ponders the Chinese viral lab located near this wet market as the source.  

And TV posters seem to believe the Chinese Communist story—stunning.

No one in their right mind believed the Chinese nor the Trump story. We need evidence not story. 

[ChouDoufu]

38 minutes ago, BKKBike09 said:

China's only BSL-4 lab is in Wuhan, cleared to that standard in 2017. It was studying bat coronavirus, using samples gathered in Yunnan. US Embassy officials visited the lab on more than one occasion shortly after it was BSL-4 certified and expressed concerns to USGOV about safety. Those concerns were ignored.

 

My money is on human error. Pure and simple. Someone screwed up and the virus got out. But in a country where admission it was human error is highly unlikely, we will probably never know. So many accidents result from a series of small and in themselves inconsequential human errors that build on each other.

 

Remember Chernobyl? "Why don't we trying turning off the cooling system and see what happens?" That went well.

correlation is not causation, and sometimes a coincidence truly is just a coincidence.

 

would you believe the conspiracy theories from the tinfoil nutters remarking on their "proof" because of the location of a chemical weapons lab with a history of accidents merely 10 miles outside of salisbury?  of course you wouldn't. 

 

we're should follow the evidence where it leads, not the other way around.  there can be unpleasant, unintended consequences when we "fix the intelligence" around our policy goals.

 

if trump goes too far with his accusations, he may get to a point where he can't back down, and will be even more at the mercy of his advisors who have their own agendas.  he could get backed into a corner politically he needs to "do something" to "look strong." 

 

sanctions and tariffs won't be enough, so he'll need to do something to give the "bad guys" a bloody nose.  with his military background essentially being reruns of the A-team, he could easily be convinced to do something...stupid. 

[Why Me]

A virus lab on end of the street and a PPE manufacturing plant at the other. Sounds like a business plan to me. I wish to invest.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Why Me

[candide]

Below a link to an article in Nature, one of the world most reputed scientific publication.

"It is improbable that SARS-CoV-2 emerged through laboratory manipulation of a related SARS-CoV-like coronavirus. As noted above, the RBD of SARS-CoV-2 is optimized for binding to human ACE2 with an efficient solution different from those previously predicted7,11. Furthermore, if genetic manipulation had been performed, one of the several reverse-genetic systems available for betacoronaviruses would probably have been used19. However, the genetic data irrefutably show that SARS-CoV-2 is not derived from any previously used virus backbone20. Instead, we propose two scenarios that can plausibly explain the origin of SARS-CoV-2: (i) natural selection in an animal host before zoonotic transfer; and (ii) natural selection in humans following zoonotic transfer. We also discuss whether selection during passage could have given rise to SARS-CoV-2."

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9

Edited April 16, 2020 by candide

[mrfill]

3 hours ago, Phuketshrew said:

I believe that it emanated in Manchester as the only way they could stop the Scousers from being crowned Premier league champions.

That didn't go well then....

[ifmu]

3 hours ago, wasabi said:

 

I will be voting for Trump and the more it upsets people the more I enjoy doing so. Biden is about mid way through Dementia. I don't like Trump's style but the media narrative about what he has and hasn't accomplished does not drive my decision.

yea i decide to not vote ... the lesser of two evils this election is one accused rapist  in WH or one accused rapist trying to get in WH   .. and what the hell with the electorial college my vote is not one vote  it is a fraction of a vote  ..  the gop let trump in let them fix the mess he made ...

[Odysseus123]

3 hours ago, J Town said:

And yet millions of white evangelicals still support him. I believe, to the core, it's cuz they ALL hate the same people.

I think that you are very close to the mark there tho' whether the Evangelicals will greet your observation "rapturously" is another matter entirely....

[Matzzon]

4 hours ago, webfact said:

I don't want to discuss what I talked to him about the laboratory, I just don't want to discuss

A Possibility: Hey, Mr Xi. There are so many in my country thinking that I am braindead. What do you think?

Also quite understandable that he would not like to elaborate on that answer.

Edited April 16, 2020 by Matzzon

[Kerryd]

51 minutes ago, candide said:

Below a link to an article in Nature, one of the world most reputed scientific publication.

"It is improbable that SARS-CoV-2 emerged through laboratory manipulation of a related SARS-CoV-like coronavirus. As noted above, the RBD of SARS-CoV-2 is optimized for binding to human ACE2 with an efficient solution different from those previously predicted7,11. Furthermore, if genetic manipulation had been performed, one of the several reverse-genetic systems available for betacoronaviruses would probably have been used19. However, the genetic data irrefutably show that SARS-CoV-2 is not derived from any previously used virus backbone20. Instead, we propose two scenarios that can plausibly explain the origin of SARS-CoV-2: (i) natural selection in an animal host before zoonotic transfer; and (ii) natural selection in humans following zoonotic transfer. We also discuss whether selection during passage could have given rise to SARS-CoV-2."

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9

Note: "it is improbable" - meaning for whatever reason they have decided that it's not likely anyone else would have tried something they themselves wouldn't have.

Note: they admit that it is "optimized" for binding to the human ACE2. Such optimization would not likely occur naturally in an animal species. Nature would have evolved it to be optimal to binding to the host animal's cells, not some foreign species.

Note: they say "would probably have been used" when mentioned it genetic manipulation had been performed. Meaning if they were doing this, they would (probably) have used one of the reverse-genetic systems available. It's like saying, "if I had been driving the car, I probably wouldn't have had that accident." They are not definitively stating that that it couldn't be done some other way. 

Note: they say this virus is not derived from a "previously used" backbone. Meaning it could have been derived from one no one had used before. According to that Al Jazeera article I linked, there are actually 3 labs in the Wuhan area doing bat research, including the Level 4 Bio Research lab, the (Chinese) CDC lab located close to the market and one other lab.
It's also noted that the covid virus has similarities to pangolin coronaviruses. There may be more out there that scientists haven't examined/tested yet (or have admitted to testing).
The Nature article above notes: "the diversity of coronaviruses in bats and other species is massively undersampled."

Note: they "propose" two scenarios, meaning they don't really know but think, maybe, one might be right. 

Interesting. It seems they've concluded that the coronovirus in bats is optimized for attaching to cells, but not for "cleaving" into them.
Then they note that the virus in pangolins seems to be optimized for "cleaving" human cells.

Of course it's not "probable" that someone would have possibly tried to combine the two. Like in a bio research lab or something. Where they might have tried things that other scientists wouldn't have thought to try.

I mean it's not like people haven't been trying to combine different things together for thousands of years or anything.
Like splicing roses or other plants.
Or cross breeding animals (unless you think the pug somehow evolved naturally). 

Or other weird science stuff like, oh, I don't know, genetically engineering different crop species like wheat and corn.

Again, to me, it seems like this is a virus that was engineered in a lab, possibly by combining two (or more) other viruses and years of testing, and then (accidentally one would hope) released from the lab.

And the Al Jazeera article also notes "accidents do happen"

"He points out that after the initial outbreak, SARS virus leaked from labs in Singapore and Taipei, as well as twice in Beijing."
("He" being Richard Ebright, a molecular biologist and director at the Waksman Institute of Microbiology at Rutgers University in New Jersey, US.)
 

"And last December, a leak of the bacterium Brucella from a veterinary lab in Gansu province infected more than 100 people."
 

SARS and other coronaviruses are not considered airborne or lethal so experiments on them are allowed in laboratories of a lower safety level, where full-bodysuits and complete decontamination for lab technicians are not necessarily required.
Anyone handling the virus could become an unwitting carrier.

 

[Eric Loh]

7 minutes ago, Matzzon said:

A Possibility: Hey, Mr Xi. There are so many in my country thinking that I am braindead. What do you think?

Also quite understandable that he would not like to elaborate on that answer.

I think it’s like whistle blower in US who are harassed by right wing nuts and GOP. They also weary about being fired. Even their boss like Michael Atkinson can’t escape persecution. 

[earlinclaifornia]

4 hours ago, wasabi said:

 

I will be voting for Trump and the more it upsets people the more I enjoy doing so. Biden is about mid way through Dementia. I don't like Trump's style but the media narrative about what he has and hasn't accomplished does not drive my decision.

My vote cancels yours

[Kerryd]

10 minutes ago, Krataiboy said:

Ooh, you naughty conspiracy theorist. You must have been watching this bloke.

A friend in the UK sent me a link to a (different) video, allegedly done by a guy (foreigner) who is supposed to be fluent in Chinese (reading/writing/speaking) and married to a Chinese doctor.
He claims that when the virus first broke out, various nations started sending medical equipment to China. (I know for a fact that Canada donated 16 tons of medical equipment to China early on in the crisis.)
He went on to claim that Chinese owned/controlled companies in "the west" were buying up stocks of the same equipment from manufacturers and suppliers and then shipping it back to China.
Then, when the virus started becoming widespread in those same countries, he claims China started selling the same stuff back to them !

I also know for a fact that Canada was indeed buying masks and ventilators from China and they (along with some other countries) noticed what they were being sent was such poor quality that they had to recall a lot of it.
I've also seen news reports of donations of medical gear coming from China. 

The problem with the video was that the guy couldn't prove anything, so it was all just "anecdotal" evidence (I heard a guy who knew someone that overheard another guy say something type of stuff.)
But of course, if you could actually prove stuff, then it wouldn't be a conspiracy theory would it ?  ???? 

The other half of the video went into the racist actions the Chinese started taking against foreigners, mainly in Guangzho and mainly against people of "African" origin. He showed pictures and video clips of various black people being herded down a street and sleeping in alleys after being kicked out of their (paid for) apartments and hotel rooms.

That was more verifiable as it was in the mainstream news in a lot of places. However, that doesn't mean his claims in the other half of the video are true.

[earlinclaifornia]

4 hours ago, JerseytoBKK said:

Very interesting ap news story on the timeline surrounding the CV: https://apnews.com/68a9e1b91de4ffc166acd6012d82c2f9

 

 

Excellent read ty

[candide]

57 minutes ago, Kerryd said:

Note: "it is improbable" - meaning for whatever reason they have decided that it's not likely anyone else would have tried something they themselves wouldn't have.

Note: they admit that it is "optimized" for binding to the human ACE2. Such optimization would not likely occur naturally in an animal species. Nature would have evolved it to be optimal to binding to the host animal's cells, not some foreign species.

Note: they say "would probably have been used" when mentioned it genetic manipulation had been performed. Meaning if they were doing this, they would (probably) have used one of the reverse-genetic systems available. It's like saying, "if I had been driving the car, I probably wouldn't have had that accident." They are not definitively stating that that it couldn't be done some other way. 

Note: they say this virus is not derived from a "previously used" backbone. Meaning it could have been derived from one no one had used before. According to that Al Jazeera article I linked, there are actually 3 labs in the Wuhan area doing bat research, including the Level 4 Bio Research lab, the (Chinese) CDC lab located close to the market and one other lab.
It's also noted that the covid virus has similarities to pangolin coronaviruses. There may be more out there that scientists haven't examined/tested yet (or have admitted to testing).
The Nature article above notes: "the diversity of coronaviruses in bats and other species is massively undersampled."

Note: they "propose" two scenarios, meaning they don't really know but think, maybe, one might be right. 

Interesting. It seems they've concluded that the coronovirus in bats is optimized for attaching to cells, but not for "cleaving" into them.
Then they note that the virus in pangolins seems to be optimized for "cleaving" human cells.

Of course it's not "probable" that someone would have possibly tried to combine the two. Like in a bio research lab or something. Where they might have tried things that other scientists wouldn't have thought to try.

I mean it's not like people haven't been trying to combine different things together for thousands of years or anything.
Like splicing roses or other plants.
Or cross breeding animals (unless you think the pug somehow evolved naturally). 

Or other weird science stuff like, oh, I don't know, genetically engineering different crop species like wheat and corn.

Again, to me, it seems like this is a virus that was engineered in a lab, possibly by combining two (or more) other viruses and years of testing, and then (accidentally one would hope) released from the lab.

And the Al Jazeera article also notes "accidents do happen"

"He points out that after the initial outbreak, SARS virus leaked from labs in Singapore and Taipei, as well as twice in Beijing."
("He" being Richard Ebright, a molecular biologist and director at the Waksman Institute of Microbiology at Rutgers University in New Jersey, US.)
 

"And last December, a leak of the bacterium Brucella from a veterinary lab in Gansu province infected more than 100 people."
 

SARS and other coronaviruses are not considered airborne or lethal so experiments on them are allowed in laboratories of a lower safety level, where full-bodysuits and complete decontamination for lab technicians are not necessarily required.
Anyone handling the virus could become an unwitting carrier.

 

You seem to be more knowledgeable than me about such issues. Any link to a scientific paper supporting an alternative hypothesis or criticizing the article I linked?

[rvaviator]

5 hours ago, Mavideol said:

I don't agree with Trump constant deflections of facts and egomaniac attitude but the above hypothesis has been put forward a couple times and sounds plausible.... wet markets in China are all around, why this one

You could say the same about winning the lottery ... 'Why not me' ????  ...  Chance ...

[EVENKEEL]

It would be irresponsible not to investigate this train of thought. Just not sure why it has to be world news.  

[Lacessit]

I guess if the intelligence services tell Trump what he wants to hear, they'll be back in his good books.

Are you guys quite sure you did not elect a king?

[ChouDoufu]

43 minutes ago, candide said:

You seem to be more knowledgeable than me about such issues. Any link to a scientific paper supporting an alternative hypothesis or criticizing the article I linked?

it's much too early in the investigation to be certain of anything.  the origin is tentatively assumed to be the wuhan market, but there were some early cases with no link to the market.  we now know there is human-human transmission, so cannot rule out the current patient zero, a shrimp vendor, may have contracted the virus elsewhere and then proceeded to infect dozens at the market.

 

other researchers are looking into alternative means of intermediate transmission.  this week, stray dogs that had eaten dead bats was proposed as the link to humans.  probably not going to be widely accepted, but at this point it does merit consideration.

 

Coronavirus may have spread to humans by dogs not bats, bombshell new research claims

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/coronavirus-spread-humans-dogs-not-21867728

 

the #3 trending hot topic in the right column on their site is the "michael jackson alive conspiracy", so the "bombshell" is looking more like a dud.  but don't discount the research simply because it gets picked up and misused by disreputable clickbait purveyors.

[thesetat2013]

5 hours ago, PremiumLane said:

The made in a lab theory was debunked ages ago and they have a good idea of where it came from

 

Some folks including politicians in both the U.S. and China have suggested that the COVID-19 coronavirus (SARS-CoV2) that’s causing the pandemic may actually be a bioweapon that was manufactured in a lab. The only difference between their conspiracy theories is who’s being accused of doing the manufacturing.

 

Prof Stephen Turner, head of the department of microbiology at Melbourne’s Monash University, says what’s most likely is that virus originated in bats.

 

Created in lab was debunked months ago. But combining different viruses to have this one emerge was never debunked. 

The more info that gets learned about this virus. The more it looks like it came from that lab. Especially disconcerting was learning that China's top scientist was working on manipulating the SARS virus in that wuhan lab. And that no bat's were sold at that wuhan market.. Kind of hard to say that was the point of origin...