Masks had no impact, full lockdown had no impact - Study of 30 countries finds

[Phulublub]

3 minutes ago, Logosone said:

A ludicrous attempt to use the words 'This suggests' as somehow implying the authors of the study do not say that masks have no benefit. 

 

Again, the study says very clearly:

 

"These results would suggest that the widespread use of face masks or coverings in the community do not provide any benefit. Indeed, there is even a suggestion that they may actually increase risk"

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20088260v1.full.pdf

 

If you read on the report further makes clear:

 

 ".... but what results are available do not support their widespread use in the community."

 

"We found that closure of education facilities, prohibiting mass gatherings and closure of some nonessential businesses were associated with reduced incidence whereas stay at home orders, closure of all non-businesses and requiring the wearing of facemasks or coverings in public was not associated with any independent additional impact"

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20088260v1.full.pdf

 

It couldn't possibly be clearer.

We agree then that report could not be clearer...The authors clearly do not have sufficient confidence in the conclusions they drew from what they observed to say anything stronger than the results SUGGEST something.  Glad we finally sorted that out.

 

PH

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, teatime101 said:

 

I quoted four studies, all from April 2020. The effectiveness of masks in reducing the spread of infection has been studied for years. Covid19 is just one more pathogen.

 

The studies and statements from institutions around the world regarding the use of masks is all out there, if you can be bothered to look.

 

1 WHO. Advice on the use of masks in the community, during home care and in healthcare settings in the context of the novel coronavirus (2019-nCoV) outbreak: interim guidance, Jan 29, 2020. https://apps.who.int/iris/ handle/10665/330987 (accessed April 15, 2020).

2 Chan AL-y, Leung CC, Lam TH, Cheng KK. To wear or not to wear:
WHO’s confusing guidance on masks in the covid-19 pandemic. BMJ Blog, March 11, 2020. https://blogs.bmj.com/bmj/2020/03/11/whos-confusing- guidance-masks-covid-19-epidemic/ (accessed April 15, 2020).

3 WHO. Advice on the use of masks in the context of COVID-19:
interim guidance, April 6, 2020. https://www.who.int/publications-detail/ advice-on-the-use-of-masks-in-the-community-during-home-care-and- in-healthcare-settings-in-the-context-of-the-novel-coronavirus-(2019- ncov)-outbreak (accessed April 15, 2020).

4 Public Health England. Coronavirus (COVID-19)—what you need to know. Jan 23, 2020. https://publichealthmatters.blog.gov.uk/2020/01/23/ wuhan-novel-coronavirus-what-you-need-to-know/ (accessed
April 15, 2020).

5 US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Recommendation regarding the use of cloth face coverings, especially in areas of significant community-based transmission. April 3, 2020. https://www.cdc.gov/ coronavirus/2019-ncov/prevent-getting-sick/cloth-face-cover.html (accessed April 15, 2020).

6 Lee HK. South Korea takes new measures to have enough face masks domestically amid coronavirus. ABC News, April 27, 2020. https://abcnews. go.com/International/south-korea-takes-measures-face-masks- domestically-amid/story?id=69254114 (accessed April 15, 2020).

7 Government of Canada. Considerations in the use of homemade masks to protect against COVID-19. Notice to general public and healthcare professionals. 2020. https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/ drugs-health-products/medical-devices/activities/announcements/ covid19-notice-home-made-masks.html (accessed April 15, 2020).

8 Government of the Czech Republic. The government requires the wearing of protective equipment and reserved time for pensioners to do their food shopping. March 18, 2020. https://www.vlada.cz/en/media-centrum/ aktualne/the-government-has-decided-to-require-the-wearing-of- protective-equipment-and-reserved-time-for-senior-citizens-to-do-their- food-shopping-180465/ (accessed April 15, 2020).

9 Howard J, Huang A, Li Z, Tufekci Z, et al. Face masks against COVID-19: an evidence review. Preprints 2020; published online April 12. DOI:10.20944/preprints202004.0203.v1 (preprint).

10 Greenhalgh T, Schmid MB, Czypionka T, Bassler D, Gruer L. Face masks for the public during the covid-19 crisis. BMJ 2020; 369: m1435.

11 Giordano C. Coronavirus: wearing face masks in public will likely become new norm, says WHO expert. The Independent, April 13, 2020. https://www. independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-face-masks-who-health- advice-covid-19-expert-a9462391.html (accessed April 15, 2020).

12 Mendick R. Now official advice may be to wear face masks in public to fight coronavirus. The Telegraph, April 13, 2020. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/ news/2020/04/13/now-official-advice-may-wear-face-masks-public-fight- coronavirus/ (accessed April 15, 2020).

13 Zou L, Ruan F, Huang M, et al. SARS-CoV-2 viral load in upper respiratory specimens of infected patients. N Engl J Med 2020; 382: 1177–79.

14 Xiao J, Shiu EYC, Gao H, Wong JW, Fong MW, Ryu S, Cowling BJ. Nonpharmaceutical measures for pandemic influenza in nonhealthcare settings—personal protective and environmental measures.
Emerg Infect Dis 2020; published online Feb 6. https://doi.org/10.3201/ eid2605.190994.

15 WHO. Non-pharmaceutical public health measures for mitigating the risk and impact of epidemic and pandemic influenza. Geneva: World Health Organization, 2019.

16 Rose G. Sick individuals and sick populations. Int J Epidemiol 1985; 14: 32–38. 17 Cowling BJ, Ali ST, Ng TW, et al. Impact assessment of non-pharmaceutical

interventions against COVID-19 and influenza in Hong Kong:
an observational study. MedRxiv 2020; published online March 16. https://doi.org/10.1101/2020.03.12.20034660 (preprint).

18 Normile D. Coronavirus cases have dropped sharply in South Korea. What’s the secret to its success? Science, March 17, 2020. https://www. sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/coronavirus-cases-have-dropped-sharply- south-korea-whats-secret-its-success# (accessed April 15, 2020).

19 National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases. NIH developing therapeutics and vaccines for coronaviruses. April 6, 2020. https://www. niaid.nih.gov/diseases-conditions/coronaviruses-therapeutics-vaccines (accessed April 15, 2020).

 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)30918-1/fulltext

Try reading all that out loud with a mask on. ????

[Puccini]

I find this part of the discussion in the study report interesting:

 

Quote

The value of school closures is particularly uncertain for COVID-19 given the observation that children have only mild or no symptoms...Throat swabs from children have shown similar viral load to those in adults, yet a review of contact tracing studies failed to find incidents where transmission occurred from children to adults. We cannot resolve the lack of consensus in these lines of evidence, about whether children can pass SARS-COV-2 to adults.

 

Now that schools have reopened in many countries where they were previously closed we may soon be getting a clearer finding whether or not children infected with SARS-CoV-2 can and do transmit the virus to adults.

 

[Sujo]

6 minutes ago, Logosone said:

A ludicrous attempt to use the words 'This suggests' as somehow implying the authors of the study do not say that masks have no benefit. 

 

Again, the study says very clearly:

 

"These results would suggest that the widespread use of face masks or coverings in the community do not provide any benefit. Indeed, there is even a suggestion that they may actually increase risk"

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20088260v1.full.pdf

 

If you read on the report further makes clear:

 

 ".... but what results are available do not support their widespread use in the community."

 

"We found that closure of education facilities, prohibiting mass gatherings and closure of some nonessential businesses were associated with reduced incidence whereas stay at home orders, closure of all non-businesses and requiring the wearing of facemasks or coverings in public was not associated with any independent additional impact"

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20088260v1.full.pdf

 

It couldn't possibly be clearer.

But they didnt study those countries where it worked. Oh shock.

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, Logosone said:

Please do not post false and misleading information.

 

A study of 30 countries has now shown that wearing a face mask has no impact on transmission or death rates.

 

"We found that closure of education facilities, prohibiting mass gatherings and closure of some nonessential businesses were associated with reduced incidence whereas stay at home orders, closure of all non-businesses and requiring the wearing of facemasks or coverings in public was not associated with any independent additional impact."

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20088260v1.full.pdf

If you can why can't he?

[Dumbastheycome]

2 minutes ago, Logosone said:

The fact that this data was taken from 30 different regimes in Europe, which all introduced the measures at different times is of course why this comparative analysis works in the first place. It allows the researchers to measure objectively by reference to cases and deaths if a measure, say wearing masks, had any effect on transmission and deaths.

 

It is the diversity of the data that is the strength of this study and why it works so brilliantly. 

 

The researchers have brilliantly solved the problem of examining measures and deducing what effect it had on transmission where several measures were thrown at the virus at the same time? How? By comparing with other countries where measures were not introduced at the same time. Brilliant! This enabled them to gauge clearly if a measure had an effect or not.

"Face covering interventions varied hugely between countries : most made face covering voluntary and some only suggested it in specific settings. Because of this variety in how interventions are implemented and described , the results for the potential of stay at home advisories especially may be under-estimated. All models are simplifications of the complex nature of reality; our modelling was unable (to) capture many subtle variations in how control measures were implemented. We acknowledge that lack of direct  observation of these variations may have biased our results. "

 

 

[Logosone]

4 minutes ago, Sujo said:

After 16 pages it is clear. The op only posts on this subject. He is only for herd mentality. That is a debunct way to control the virus.

 

he keeps holding onto the unverivied view that he is correct and has only shown a survey of countries that are not doing well.

 

he refuses to a knowledge the facts that lockdowns do work as that is proven.

 

as he inly posts in related topics you can take his view with a pinch of salt.

I would suggest you take another stab at writing that post in English.

 

Then once you've done that read that study, which shows very clearly that stay-at home and closure of non-essential business lockdowns  have been shown to have no benefit. 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2020 by Logosone

[Phil McCaverty]

2 minutes ago, Logosone said:

It's a bit surprising you look better with a mask on.

 

It's because I look so good without a mask that I'm so strongly against them.

 

I don't see why I should keep Thais even happier, when they get the incredible joy of seeing my perfect face. That's already more happiness than most people can handle.

Don't poke a bear with a sharp stick.

 

Its all about having a quiet hassle free life.

[Dumbastheycome]

5 minutes ago, Logosone said:

It's a bit surprising you look better with a mask on.

 

It's because I look so good without a mask that I'm so strongly against them.

 

I don't see why I should keep Thais even happier, when they get the incredible joy of seeing my perfect face. That's already more happiness than most people can handle.

So are  you  pursuing this as a long winded troll?

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I've been wearing the same mask for 2 months now.

I'll need to find new ear elastic soon. 

What about your knickers?

[BritManToo]

Just now, nauseus said:

What about your knickers?

The elastic in them is going too.

[nauseus]

Just now, Dumbastheycome said:

So are  you  pursuing this as a long winded troll?

Certainly seems to be on a mission. I thought he'd be busy making a few more highly profitable currency trades. ???? 

[RJRS1301]

1 minute ago, nauseus said:

What about your knickers?

Probably fetching pink lacey ones

[toofarnorth]

7 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Wuhan?

'scuse me .

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, Logosone said:

This mysterious "factor" "protecting" Thailand is that Thailand is not doing testing on a real scale. Of course if you never tested someone, if they die how would you know if he died of Covid19? You can't.

 

It's perfectly understood. Certainly Thai management is not protecting Thais, the Ostrich approach of doing close to zero testing however is effective in pretending you have no cases.

 

No doubt Nigerians are also sitting at home marvelling about the mysterious reasons why they are so unbelievable successful in almost having no deaths and no cases, even more than Thailand. 

 

"So Adedayao, we are incredibly successful in defeating the virus. What do you think it could be?"

 

"I don't know Mutumbo, maybe it is our Tuwo Masara, they say corn flour has high Vitamin C"

 

"Of course it could be our practice of squatting on the ground to greet the elders, Adedayao"

 

"Yes, it could Mutumbo, our culture has protected us".

 

"You do know we're not testing at all, Adedayao, don't you?"

 

"Yes, Mutumbo, I know. I know."

 

 

You continue spouting complete rubbish. I suppose we all know why. 

 

Nigeria's infection curve is just starting to rise up - 107 deaths so far.

 

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/nigeria/

 

I hope that you can get the help you need one day.

 

PS Mutumbo is a Congolese name.

 

[Lacessit]

11 minutes ago, Logosone said:

It's a bit surprising you look better with a mask on.

 

It's because I look so good without a mask that I'm so strongly against them.

 

I don't see why I should keep Thais even happier, when they get the incredible joy of seeing my perfect face. That's already more happiness than most people can handle.

First it was the Mercedes Benz as the pinnacle of automotive excellence, now it is the uselessness of masks. I'm guessing next will be something like why don't we teach Thais German instead of English. Or the superb eugenics of a Thai-German offspring.

While I admire your energy in posting and reposting endless justifications for your various positions, bear in mind Australians are highly suspicious of any attempt at authority, and disrespectful accordingly. Which is why the Fourth Reich on Thai Visa isn't going to fly.

[Puccini]

4 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

We agree then that report could not be clearer...The authors clearly do not have sufficient confidence in the conclusions they drew from what they observed to say anything stronger than the results SUGGEST something.  Glad we finally sorted that out.

 

PH

The problem was that there was no definitive data to arrive at a conclusion.

 

• No country prohibited the wearing of face masks.
• In countries where no recommendation to wear face masks was made, no data regarding the incidence of wearing masks was reported.
• In countries where wearing face masks was recommended or strongly recommended, no data regarding the incidence of wearing masks was reported.
• In countries where wearing face masks was declared mandatory, if there were any such countries, no data regarding the incidence of wearing masks was reported.

 

[nauseus]

31 minutes ago, Logosone said:

The fact that this data was taken from 30 different regimes in Europe, which all introduced the measures at different times is of course why this comparative analysis works in the first place. It allows the researchers to measure objectively by reference to cases and deaths if a measure, say wearing masks, had any effect on transmission and deaths.

 

It is the diversity of the data that is the strength of this study and why it works so brilliantly. 

 

The researchers have brilliantly solved the problem of examining measures and deducing what effect it had on transmission where several measures were thrown at the virus at the same time? How? By comparing with other countries where measures were not introduced at the same time. Brilliant! This enabled them to gauge clearly if a measure had an effect or not.

Brilliant! Brilliant! Brilliant! Just like a snow job.

[nauseus]

11 minutes ago, toofarnorth said:

'scuse me .

Bless you.

[Phulublub]

21 minutes ago, Logosone said:

I would suggest you take another stab at writing that post in English.

 

Then once you've done that read that study, which shows very clearly that stay-at home and closure of non-essential business lockdowns  have been shown to have no benefit. 

 

 

Since you are so proficient in English yourself I find it surprising that you appear to not understand that "This suggests...."  means that the authors of the study cannot make any definitive statment as to their findings.

[Logosone]

26 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

We agree then that report could not be clearer...The authors clearly do not have sufficient confidence in the conclusions they drew from what they observed to say anything stronger than the results SUGGEST something.  Glad we finally sorted that out.

 

PH

Well that's just a shameless lie.

 

Again, the study says very clearly:

 

"These results would suggest that the widespread use of face masks or coverings in the community do not provide any benefit. Indeed, there is even a suggestion that they may actually increase risk"

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20088260v1.full.pdf

 

If you read on the report further makes clear:

 

 ".... but what results are available do not support their widespread use in the community."

 

"We found that closure of education facilities, prohibiting mass gatherings and closure of some nonessential businesses were associated with reduced incidence whereas stay at home orders, closure of all non-businesses and requiring the wearing of facemasks or coverings in public was not associated with any independent additional impact"

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20088260v1.full.pdf

 

It's over.

 

 

[Logosone]

30 minutes ago, Sujo said:

But they didnt study those countries where it worked. Oh shock.

It didn't work anywhere. Here's why:

 

Masks have no effect at all.

 

A study of 30 countries, by several universities and the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine has shown that masks have no benefit.

 

"These results would suggest that the widespread use of face masks or coverings in the community do not provide any benefit. Indeed, there is even a suggestion that they may actually increase risk"

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20088260v1.full.pdf

 

If you read on the report further makes clear:

 

 ".... but what results are available do not support their widespread use in the community."

 

"We found that closure of education facilities, prohibiting mass gatherings and closure of some nonessential businesses were associated with reduced incidence whereas stay at home orders, closure of all non-businesses and requiring the wearing of facemasks or coverings in public was not associated with any independent additional impact"

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20088260v1.full.pdf

 

Of course the face masks used in Europe are the same as in Asia. The droplets are the same. Why would it be any different in Asia? It isn't. 

 

Masks are useless everywhere.

[teacherclaire]

7 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Which was official NZ position at the start of all this.

I've been saying that all along, but some posters oppose and demand everyone wear one.

Are they now going to admit they had no grounds for demanding everyone wear one? I'm not holding my breath.

But when this dirty foreigner refused to wear one, it had to be mandatory for all to wear a mask. 

Does that make any sense? If not, don't worry. Not much here makes any sense. 

 Now I'm off to visit a temple. I need the lottery numbers for a European jackpot. 

[Phulublub]

8 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Well that's just a shameless lie.

 

Again, the study says very clearly:

 

"These results would suggest

I metrely speak the truth.  That you cannot, or will not accept it is your problem, notmine.  Once again, just to be absolutely clear, I quote from what you keep posting:

 

"These results would suggest.."

 

Suggest. Not prove.  Not show clearly.  Suggest.  You know - from the OED:

 

1a: to mention or imply as a possibilitysuggested that he might bring his family

b: to propose as desirable or fittingsuggest a stroll

c: to offer for consideration or as a hypothesissuggest a solution to a problem

 

 

 

Edited May 8, 2020 by Phulublub
pagination

[Logosone]

38 minutes ago, Puccini said:

I find this part of the discussion in the study report interesting:

 

 

Now that schools have reopened in many countries where they were previously closed we may soon be getting a clearer finding whether or not children infected with SARS-CoV-2 can and do transmit the virus to adults.

 

Of course they can. The study makes clear that the closure of schools was the number one factor that made a difference.

 

Anyone who's ever had children knows what disease incubators kindergardens and schools are.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Logosone

[DrTuner]

Doesn't seem to match the data.

 

http://www.asymco.com/

 

In most cases it seems decrease in mobility resulted in fall of new infections with a delay. Which makes perfect sense.

[Logosone]

2 minutes ago, Phulublub said:

I metrely speak the truth.  That you cannot, or will not accept it is your problem, notmine.  Once again, just to be absolutely clear, I quote from what you keep posting:

 

"These results would suggest.."

 

Suggest. Not prove.  Not show clearly.  Suggest.  You know - from the OED:

 

1a: to mention or imply as a possibilitysuggested that he might bring his family

b: to propose as desirable or fittingsuggest a stroll

c: to offer for consideration or as a hypothesissuggest a solution to a problem

 

 

 

No you shamelessly try to distort the findings of the study, as you do above by omitting key statements. In fact the report said:

 

"These results would suggest that the widespread use of face masks or coverings in the community do not provide any benefit. Indeed, there is even a suggestion that they may actually increase risk"

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20088260v1.full.pdf

 

If you read on the report further makes clear:

 

 ".... but what results are available do not support their widespread use in the community."

 

"We found that closure of education facilities, prohibiting mass gatherings and closure of some nonessential businesses were associated with reduced incidence whereas stay at home orders, closure of all non-businesses and requiring the wearing of facemasks or coverings in public was not associated with any independent additional impact"

 

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.05.01.20088260v1.full.pdf

 

It's over. The mask fanaticism has had its day. 

 

The truth is out.

[Phulublub]

4 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Of course they can. The study makes clear that the closure of schools was the number one factor that made a difference.

 

Anyone who's ever had children knows that disease incubators kindergardens and schools are.

It does?  For this deisease?

 

How, then, do you explain:

 

Throat swabs from children have shown similar viral load to those in adults21, yet a review of contact tracing studies failed to find incidents where transmission occurred from children to adults 21.

 

Your narrative continues to fall apart around you.  But that us the problem with starting with a conclusion and then trying to get the evidence to fit. It often refuses toplay ball.

 

PH

 

[scubascuba3]

There are probably elements of lockdowns that did work and some we know for sure don't work, closing beaches, swimming pools, parks, pavements, alcohol ban and loads of other things, but were they worth the economic cost and the answer in time will be definitely not. Schools closing another mistake.

 

Now people don't want to go back to work, the only way is to stop the govt (UK for example) paying their wages and they'll soon go back

[Logosone]

23 minutes ago, Puccini said:

The problem was that there was no definitive data to arrive at a conclusion.

 

• No country prohibited the wearing of face masks.
• In countries where no recommendation to wear face masks was made, no data regarding the incidence of wearing masks was reported.
• In countries where wearing face masks was recommended or strongly recommended, no data regarding the incidence of wearing masks was reported.
• In countries where wearing face masks was declared mandatory, if there were any such countries, no data regarding the incidence of wearing masks was reported.

 

Wrong. There was plenty of data. From 30 countries in fact.

 

Plenty of European countries made it mandatory.

 

They need not have bothered, as we now know since wearing masks confers no benefits at all.

 

None.