Best way to own land as a married couple

[Tony125]

10 hours ago, mikemi said:

well the idea is that nobody gets burned, isnt it. hence the thread.

 

Are you saying that foreigners cant create contracts in thailand? or cant give loans?

 

I buy a house for 100k or whatever. I own a lien on the house for 50k, or my wife owes me 50k via contract to be paid whenever I see fit.

 

So she has the house and is 100k up, but she owes me 50k.

 

The contract will stipulate settlement terms. It would say something like, in the event of separation the owed money is to be paid within 1 year or the house is to be sold via a named firm of solicitors via public auction, proceeds to be split 50/50.

 

As far as I can see, so long as foreigners can enter into contracts in thai law, then why doesnt this method work?

 

Can we have a bit more thinking, and a bit less of the usual "its thailand you will lose everything " because I find it really childish, repetitive, and most of all ignorant.

 

Is there any law that prevents such a contract from being created?

 

 

 

Read below article  and see how 2 EU multi millionaires who thought they were super smart well educated and expirianced investers got taken for everything they had by poor/uneducated Thai girls

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-34346620

[crazykopite]

Your wife is Thai you say that she has invested all her own money it is only her who can own land and not you even if you set up a Ltr Company she would be the major shareholder not you and I believe now that with new companies there are no longer what used to be preferential shares if this is the case she is the major shareholder . The other thing is you will do very little the trees grow themselves and when the time is right to harvest your wife will bring in local workers my advice is keep your money in the bank and enjoy life what I can tell you picking the fruit after an hour would have you crawling under the shade for a few hours it’s hat and hard work something brits are not used to so chill and let your wife run the business if you feel you need to do something you can always clean the house and wash the dishes . 

[cornishcarlos]

18 hours ago, mikemi said:

Nobody else in the family really wanted to be involved with the land,

 

Until there is money to be made ie a successful Durian operation...

 

Then...

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1165644-man-allegedly-shoots-dead-his-two-brothers-in-inheritance-dispute/

[khunPer]

18 hours ago, mikemi said:

I have heard we can put the land in the wife's name and then she can give me a lease? or we can put it as a company with her as 51%?

 

And what about her leaving it to me in a will in case she goes first??

 

What should I do here?

If the land is in another family members name and going to be transferred, then it sounds like it's so-called "Sor Por Gor" or like title deed. In that case the land can only be transferred within family – i.e. your wife's name – so you should check the title of the land deed. It's little complex, but you can read more about Thai title deeds here.

 

However, no matter what title the deed has, you cannot legally be owner, or part owner.

 

There are several good threads in Thaivisa forum about land ownership and marriage, including that any contract between husband and wife – land lease, land servitudes, etc. – can be declared void in case of divorce. It's also worth thinking about worst case scenario like death and last will, especially if you are going to invest in a house on the land, there are also several good threads about that subject. You can read more here about "Land (real estate) acquisition by a Thai married to a foreigner".

 

A foreigner can own a house, but not the land under the house. However, if the house is not separated from the land, it's part of the land ownership, so in most cases it would be a new build house, or a newly build house within a project where the constructor have separated the buildings from the land. Using this as kind of protection of investment, you'll need right of "superficies", eventually combined with a land lease, the latter might however be more complicated when a married couple. You can read more about superficies property rights here.

 

The company limited method can only work for high level title deeds, preferable so-called "chanute", eventually "nor sor sarm" that will be upgraded to chanute title. You need three shareholders, and 51 percent of the shareholder capital need to be owned by Thai nationals. If the company is a shell for only holding a land title for a foreigner, it's against the intention of the law, i.e. illegal, but will normally work out. You will have annual expenses for an accountant, a yearly audited tax report, and expect to pay some level of small company tax. The costs of running an in principle illegal shell company can easily be from about 25,000 baht and up a year. The company shall have a lease income, from renting the land out to for example you. If the rent contract period is over 3 years, but cannot be longer than 30 years, a tax shall be paid for the whole lease term when registering the lease agreement at the land office; an unregistered rent agreement running more than 3 years is void. You can read more about land lease here, and a Thai company limited as property owner here.

 

What you should do?

If you trust your wife then just let her own her family land, which you have not invested in, and be happy if you are going to live there, eventually be happy to share some costs by that time.

 

If you invest in a home to be build on the land, then think about the old saying "never invest more in Thailand than you can afford to loose". In more practical terms, plan long term; meaning compared to renting a similar home, you would normally pay the full amount in average 15 years anyway – the period can be from 10 years to 20 years depending of various factors – so just you can spend 10 years in a house you paid fully for, as you didn't pay for the land under the building, you have had your invested value back. In other words, "investing" in property in Thailand, is a calculated risk, one way or the other.

 

If you have a Thai national child together with your wife, the child can be registered owner of the land under a guardian, and grant you some servitude rights as usufruct for life – some land offices might not issue a usufruct servitude to a foreigner – or a superficies. As long as the child is minor the land cannot be sold or transferred. You can read more about usufruct here.

 

Another possibility for protection of "investment" that my lawyer suggested, is a loan registered on the land office as servitude, just like a mortgage. The land cannot be sold or transferred without the loan is fully paid; however lower title deeds – i.e. lower titles than chanute and nor sor sarm – might not be used for security for a loan, which then cannot be registered as a servitude.

 

It's difficult to be an alien property owner in Thailand, sometimes it's best not to think too much – nor invest too much – and just enjoy the time here...????

[chuang]

19 hours ago, mr mr said:

i suggest this amount as your total investment. 

And you are planning to have a claim...LOL

[mikemi]

6 hours ago, thailand49 said:

This response is coming from from your ego?  if that was the real case " more money than me " everything you speak of would have been done already with or without you?  Transferring land between family from my experience is simple walk in with those involved and it is done.

 

You kind of sound like a women in reverse from the West in general ???? " Gold digger " 

but she literally has more money than me, like in the bank more, and she owns more stuff

 

and her family is richer than mine

 

so what do you want me to say?

 

some lies for you? ok she is a poor isaan rat eater who needs my money for mending her grandmas shoes

 

feel better? 

[Jenkins9039]

20 hours ago, mikemi said:

it will be a roughly 60,000 gbp investment by the time we get to 2024, the year in which the durian should start to yield.

I'd be concerned with this price, 60k GBP is a significant sum for a farm to layout (we have over 500 rai directly and 2000 rai indirectly), and i'd be surprised if we (she) pays anything like this.

 

One thing to be concerned with, is the land full chanute or is it lower variations of land titles (sor por gor etc) because in those cases it could be tricky, usually its fine when the mother hands to the daughter (which is what happened in my wifes case). 

As to physical costs of operations, its not a sizeable amount for the trees, but the cost adds up with the fertilisers etc annually (like 20-25k THB per 25 rai per year).

 

Its a shame the rubber trees are gone, we (she) offloaded those and that was about 1.6m THB per 50 rai plots a few years ago.

 

Also now is the time to 'go organic', people are going nuts for it in Thailand, so i'd concentrate on this as a small holding, or hold off till canabis is legalised and you can get in with the community.

 

Legally speaking, full chanute land, if married (in thailand) and divorce, you are entitled to 50%, dependent on children will cause that to go skewed (hence thai men usually have second wifes but retain their first and children in wealth so as to not get screwed in divorce). 

 

If its not full chanute land, then you are not entitled to anything, as it becomes more of a pain, note also that many expats cry their wifes screwed them etc, usually its a case the wife had the finance in her name (car, land, home etc) and when they split, well you can't split the finance (but can the debt) so usually they get awarded in a divorce (settlement in mediation during court), so if you are going to finance anything, understand this.

[mikemi]

1 hour ago, cornishcarlos said:

 

Until there is money to be made ie a successful Durian operation...

 

Then...

 

https://forum.thaivisa.com/topic/1165644-man-allegedly-shoots-dead-his-two-brothers-in-inheritance-dispute/

well thats ok, if there are to be murders for money, we wont be first on the list, a number of the family members are well off, good businesses, large farms, etc

 

we should have plenty of warning, hopefully we will be clever enough to figure it out at the 3rd or 4th funeral, and scurry away back to england

[mikemi]

7 hours ago, Moouan said:

Mikemi, I don't know about loans etc, however the best way to protect your interest in the land in the event your relationship fails is to take out a Usufruct on the land, I originally did this. A Usufruct gives you the right to occupy and use the land as you see fit until your death, it is registered on the land document at the land office. This prevents anyone from selling, borrowing against or using the land with out your consent. Very easy and cheap to set up with a lawyer.  Also, contrary to someone else's post, but as this is agricultural land it is unlikely to be a Chanote title but one of the other lesser titles eg, Nor Sor Saam. Setting up a company with you as a 49% shareholder is an option but opens you up to other requirements and costs such as tax return obligations. A Usufruct is the way to go imho. Regarding a Work Permit as another said agricultural work is reserved for Thai nationals but your work permit would be in a management capacity, unlikely you will be out digging and planting/picking in this heat anyway????. Good luck, fwiw contrary to all the naresayers it can work out here, I have been here nearly 20 years happily married for the last ten with two beautiful children, and we all live very well off the money my wife makes running her own businesses.

Ok great, I will look into this usufruct business as well. I just wanted to make sure that when we transfer the ownership we do it right and do it once rather than wrong and twice.

 

It is nor sor saam.

 

Does a usufruct allow you to control the land, as in sell? Probably not I guess?

 

Actually, since it is a business, we might set it up as a company because I think it might be better to actually be paying some tax if we are to stay long term. Then have the company own the land etc. I am really not sure

[mikemi]

5 hours ago, ThaidDown said:

1, Contracts between husband and wife can be cancelled by either party at any time and are therefore unenforceable.

    (CCC 1469}

2, Wills can be replaced by a new one at any time

3, A Usufruct (or Lease) on land does not prevent it being sold. But as pointed out what would be its value.

 

 

So could the contract be made between my wife and my brother, for example?

 

Are there any laws that prevent my wife owing my brother money, and having that loan secured against land in thailand?

 

 

[mikemi]

23 minutes ago, Jenkins9039 said:

If its not full chanute land, then you are not entitled to anything, as it becomes more of a pain, note also that many expats cry their wifes screwed them etc, usually its a case the wife had the finance in her name (car, land, home etc) and when they split, well you can't split the finance (but can the debt) so usually they get awarded in a divorce (settlement in mediation during court), so if you are going to finance anything, understand this.

it is nor sor saam. Is that sufficient, or is it better to try to upgrade?

 

oh and that 60k cost. Well removal of the old tree stumps, ploughing, planting, watering system, huts, pond, electrics, up till now has cost 30k. And the monthly cost is about 300 GBP, for electric, vitamins, paying a few workers to cut grass and so on. So I imagine by the time we get to harvest in about 3 or 4 more years, it will end up coming to about 60k.

 

 

[blackcab]

22 minutes ago, mikemi said:

Does a usufruct allow you to control the land, as in sell? Probably not I guess?

 

A usufruct entitles you to use the land. It does not entitle you to sell the land.

9 minutes ago, mikemi said:

it is nor sor saam. Is that sufficient, or is it better to try to upgrade?

 

It is always better to upgrade the land to Nor Sor 4 (chanote). This is the only proof of ownership in Thailand. All lesser titles are possessory in nature, rather than being true ownership.

[KhaoYai]

15 hours ago, mikemi said:

I buy a house for 100k or whatever. I own a lien on the house for 50k, or my wife owes me 50k via contract to be paid whenever I see fit.

I'm not going to tell you that as a foreigner, you lose everything if things go wrong because that's not always the case.

 

However, you need to remember that things in Thailand are different. For one thing depending on the location second hand houses in Thailand don't sell like they do in the West. Then you have to consider where the house is - let's say for example its surrounded by other family houses/land. If things go wrong and you end up calling in your loan, your wife can't pay so you re-possess the land. You may still be able to control it if your the majority shareholder with full rights over the company but would that work in practical terms? How would you feel living there surrounded by potentially hostile family members? Productive farmland will usually sell quite readily but buyers could be put off by the situation - obviously depending on what that is.

 

There are a lot of things to take into consideration - the type of title the land is held under will also affect matters. I said earlier that it should be possible to grant a foreign mortgage over the land but as far as I know, that only applies to land on a channote title.

 

Obviously I know nothing of your situation but I would suggest that you firstly check out the type of title and if its not on a channote, find out if it (or part of it at least) can be upgraded to channote - some land cannot.  I would forget any claim over the farmland - try to hive off part of the land to build a house on and take any security out over that land. If you are able to do that, make sure that you reserve access/utility rights over the farmland to the house site - another potential future problem.

 

You could also protect yourself further by limiting your investment to machinery etc. - things you can own.

 

To illustrate what I mean about the location of the house/land - here's my situation.  I 'owned' my house before I met my wife - its detached and 100km away from where she lives. Therefore there is no family involvement, the house is not connected to her or her family in any way.  Even if I didn't currently 'own' it, its the sort of place/location that I would be prepared to invest in, in her name but protected by both a mortgage and a usufruct agreement. Being remote from any family interests, it would sell relatively easily without problems.

 

Contrast that to her house - that's in a village, surrounded by family houses and relatives. No way would I invest anything that I wasn't prepared to lose in that property because it would be of no use to me whatsoever.  The family may become hostile if we broke up and even if I called in my loan and tried to force a sale, it would be easy for them to put any potential buyers off.

 

You're right to be cautious and try to find ways to protect yourself - not easy with the Thai land laws, but you will have to accept that you might not be able to get all the protection you want or that such protection may not have much value in practical terms.

 

 

[kingofthemountain]

2 hours ago, blackcab said:

A usufruct entitles you to use the land. It does not entitle you to sell the land.

Yes, in theory.

In fact (And the OP seems not to be aware of that)

i wish you good luck to ''use the land'' as a foreigner in a rural area with all

the Thai family, the friends and the neighbours of your ex wife all around you

if they decide for some reasons to not let you stay here and do your business.

I still have my name as a co owner on a chanote registered at a land office

for 20 rais of ricefield in the north, that was the most expensive useless paper

i bought in my whole life (2 millions bahts)

[thailand49]

2 hours ago, mikemi said:

but she literally has more money than me, like in the bank more, and she owns more stuff

 

and her family is richer than mine

 

so what do you want me to say?

 

some lies for you? ok she is a poor isaan rat eater who needs my money for mending her grandmas shoes

 

feel better? 

You seem to be a bit sensitive for any of this!  I don't want you to say anything!  The best thing for you is stay in the dark and don't even try to live or work in the farm I doubt with you sensitivity you have the fortitude to be a real farmer in Thailand.   Keep you head in the sand you be much happier for many to survive you need to have a open mine to do that you can come close to understanding the Land of Smile for you it is the Land of Stupidity.

 

Good luck you will need it real bad!

[mikemi]

59 minutes ago, thailand49 said:

You seem to be a bit sensitive for any of this!  I don't want you to say anything!  The best thing for you is stay in the dark and don't even try to live or work in the farm I doubt with you sensitivity you have the fortitude to be a real farmer in Thailand.   Keep you head in the sand you be much happier for many to survive you need to have a open mine to do that you can come close to understanding the Land of Smile for you it is the Land of Stupidity.

 

Good luck you will need it real bad!

yeah I am really sensitive with no fortitude, everything I typed previously is lies

 

truth is, i met my wife in pataya. It was my first week there, and by chance it was also her first week there, she was just looking for a husband, and I immediately fell in love

 

she wants me to invest in her family's rat farm in isaan. she has no money and nor do I, I spent all my savings on sin sod.

 

I am going to use credit cards to borrow all I can to improve the rat farm, new cages, bigger rats, and buy one cart to make the bbq and sell from. Starting with one cart, we estimate we will sell 300 rats per day. We will reinvest the profits into more carts, and after 5 years we aim to have 50 carts all over isaan. The way I figure it, the more I invest the more I will get back. 2+2=4. The numbers all add up.

 

So you see, I wanted to make sure that my investment is safe

[thailand49]

1 hour ago, mikemi said:

yeah I am really sensitive with no fortitude, everything I typed previously is lies

 

truth is, i met my wife in pataya. It was my first week there, and by chance it was also her first week there, she was just looking for a husband, and I immediately fell in love

 

she wants me to invest in her family's rat farm in isaan. she has no money and nor do I, I spent all my savings on sin sod.

 

I am going to use credit cards to borrow all I can to improve the rat farm, new cages, bigger rats, and buy one cart to make the bbq and sell from. Starting with one cart, we estimate we will sell 300 rats per day. We will reinvest the profits into more carts, and after 5 years we aim to have 50 carts all over isaan. The way I figure it, the more I invest the more I will get back. 2+2=4. The numbers all add up.

 

So you see, I wanted to make sure that my investment is safe

You are certainly in the right frame of mind " Land of Stupidity "  I was doing you a favor telling you not to say anything there was a reason for it!  Now take a moment go back and take a look at everything then you will see " silence is golden " in your particular case the more you talk the more you just make yourself silly.  Sensitive don't ask for advice might be the best thing for you here I wonder why your wife if she is everything you say not the stupid stuff you just wrote " in the money " she dump the first one for a reason but I wonder why she pick up hamburger when she could have a steak?

[kingofthemountain]

Mikemi you have had some very good advices here on your topic

 

You can pic the ones more in relation with your personal situation

but you shouldn't overeact like you did in some of yours posts

all of us here are trying to do our best to avoid you future problems

with our experiences of life and Thailand, nothing more.

 

After all we could just say nothing, just ignore you or post something

like '' do what you want dude, you are the best and it should be ok''

but it's not the spirit here, we really try to help.

 

But if you try to ridicule some posts or some members because it's just 

not going in the way you want don't be surprise if at your next request for help

nobody answer to you, as we are talking about agricultur ''you reap what you sow''

 

good luck to you

[mikemi]

1 hour ago, thailand49 said:

You are certainly in the right frame of mind " Land of Stupidity "  I was doing you a favor telling you not to say anything there was a reason for it!  Now take a moment go back and take a look at everything then you will see " silence is golden " in your particular case the more you talk the more you just make yourself silly.  Sensitive don't ask for advice might be the best thing for you here I wonder why your wife if she is everything you say not the stupid stuff you just wrote " in the money " she dump the first one for a reason but I wonder why she pick up hamburger when she could have a steak?

You will be the one looking silly when I am millionaire with the biggest rat farm in isaan. 

 

???? 

 

 

[KhaoYai]

I suspect a troll

[ericthai]

On 5/24/2020 at 10:30 AM, mikemi said:

But it would be possible to loan, and secure the loan against the land, would it not?

A foreigner cant own land.

 

When a Thai is married to a foreigner and buys land the thai person has to sign a document that all the money for the land is from them and not their spouse. However, if the land is purchased during the marriage and your wife passes away you can inherit the land, but you would have to sell the land within 1 year. 

 

Opening a company to own the land is tricky and some people have had issues, every few years they crack down on this.  However, if the company is active (generating revenue, having workers) then that would be different.  Your wife is Thai have her make some call and find out. 

[khunPer]

7 hours ago, mikemi said:

it is nor sor saam. Is that sufficient, or is it better to try to upgrade?

Nor sor sarm title deed need to be upgraded to chanute, as nor sor sarm is not full ownership. When upgrade – which can take some time – the land will be satelite reassurere, the neighbors need to be present and sign for the new chanute posts, and any one that might have claim to the title deed get a 30 day public notice. This would normally be a the head-of-village's notice-bord, asked to come forward with their claim of rights to the land.

 

My reply is from experience with buying both nor sor sarm land, and chanute land, and from buying land in the name of a Thai company limited.

 

A Thai company limited can however still be owner of a nor sor sarm title deed, and thereafter the upgraded chanute deed, if you wish to use the company route.

 

Please see my previous post and links, your replies sounds like it will be worth for you to take a closer look of the links.

 

I wish you good luck with your plans...????

[mikemi]

Yes thanks a lot for the help, I will certainly look further into everything. It isnt just a question for me but for both of us, since currently the land is not in my wife's name, she too wants to have a claim on it going forward.

 

 

[thailand49]

11 hours ago, mikemi said:

You will be the one looking silly when I am millionaire with the biggest rat farm in isaan. 

 

???? 

 

 

Look I wish you the best of luck of being a Millionaire in Thailand when that happens your dream will come true " rats " are a magnet to money just like when you win the lottery you find out you have a much larger family???? even when you are Thai.

 

There is a simple question you need to ask you wife?  I love you first then what is it in for me? You might not get a direct answer so is there a hesitation watch for facial expression and body language that will be a good start to you getting some real answers?

 

Again good luck farmer but there done that.

[stupidfarang]

Admin, Time to close this topic? He is either a fool or this post is a wind up, a Troll

[mikemi]

8 hours ago, stupidfarang said:

Admin, Time to close this topic? He is either a fool or this post is a wind up, a Troll

I agree close the topic.

 

I did get some decent advice, but unfortunately some bad eggs showed up too.

 

I have been called all sorts

 

• a fool, a troll, stupid, silly
• I have been called hamburger instead of steak
• My wife's intentions have been drawn into question
• My ego has been commented on? weird I know, but it was ..
• I have been called a reverse women gold digger ...
• My wife's family "no doubt love money"
• I have been warned about being killed, twice
• Been told my wife is allowed to steal from me
• Been told my wife's family is pressuring her to extort money from me
• Been told I am not worthy of help
• Been told I am sensitive, that I should keep my head in the sand
• That I have no fortitude and couldnt be a real farmer

 

It is a shame that good advice has to get mixed in with all this nonsense. Anyone searching google for information on this subject will find this thread and have to read through all that garbage to get the decent information out.

 

Nevermind, at least the good information is there, and reading through all that trash is a small price to pay to get the goodies ????

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[KhaoYai]

22 hours ago, ericthai said:

When a Thai is married to a foreigner and buys land the thai person has to sign a document that all the money for the land is from them and not their spouse.

I know this goes against that and yes, I'm aware of that document but, subject to local differences, a foreigner can lend money against the security of a property. Calling in such a loan would not have to result in ownership being transferred to the foreign mortgagee, it would simply lead to a forced sale.

 

As an aside, although the existence of the document you mention is well known and widespread, a lawyer told me that it is not part of Thai law and thus is illegal.

[Neeranam]

If you don't trust your wife, divorce her and certainly don't invest in something with her.

 

The golden rules -  don't marry a Thai woman until you have lived in Thailand for 5 years.

Don't build a house until you have been married for 5 years.

[KhaoYai]

2 hours ago, mikemi said:

It is a shame that good advice has to get mixed in with all this nonsense. Anyone searching google for information on this subject will find this thread and have to read through all that garbage to get the decent information out.

You bring the comments on yourself. You appear to be a relative newcomer to Thailand and its laws. Much like myself 18 years ago, I was full of buying land and importing my motorbike (as per your other thread).  I soon learned that no matter what my dreams were, they would not take place in the way I wished in Thailand.

 

You will come across all manner of things that sometimes seem designed to make life difficult for a foreigner in Thailand but fast forward a few years and you will start to learn that there are ways around most of the laws or ways of doing things differently.

 

Instead of arguing with people who've had the same wishes as yourself but learned they are unrealistic, why not accept the wisdom others have gained and save yourself the heartache?

 

Its only through trying to do much of what you want to do that members here have gained the knowledge they have - they are actually trying to help you but your attitude is now beginning to attract adverse comments.

[torturedsole]

3 hours ago, mikemi said:

I have been called all sorts

I'm sure by the time you get to your hundredth post you'll have developed thicker skin.