Video of Floyd's death offers clues into ex-Minneapolis officers' possible defense, say legal experts

[IAMHERE]

12 hours ago, webfact said:

After Floyd's arrest, the officers briefly tried to put him in a squad car, but he refused and said he was claustrophobic, according to court documents.

I wonder if he had a driver's license?  I also wonder how that claustrophobia worked while he was in prison for 5 years.

[digger70]

12 hours ago, Olmate said:

Yes he did,2009 did 5 yrs assault n robbery with a gun,later offences with violence,caught for passing fake cash on this occasion

If He would've been White there wouldn't  be any Drama, Just Bad luck on the Crims side ,as of Excessive Force  That's Debatable as he was a Crim one can't take Any chances so Force Has to be applied to the crim by the officers to protect themselves.

[Rimmer]

Off topic posts about Australia removed

[Billthekiwi]

9 minutes ago, digger70 said:

If He would've been White there wouldn't  be any Drama, Just Bad luck on the Crims side ,as of Excessive Force  That's Debatable as he was a Crim one can't take Any chances so Force Has to be applied to the crim by the officers to protect themselves.

I tend to agree with you. However passing a fake $20 doesn't rate as the big time to me.

 

Recently I went to a money changing company in my local mall.

 

I strongly suspect some of the bills were dodgy but US currency is not my own so I couldn't say for certain.

 

But I was not a criminal even if they were.

 

I'm more inclined to think personal factors were involved. I think that too much force was used and not enough care taken to prevent consequences for George.

 

I think that Chavez is solely to blame myself. Murder? I don't know?

 

Manslaughter I can go with because a man died. It doesn't matter that he had a criminal past.

 

He should not have been allowed to die.

Edited June 5, 2020 by Billthekiwi
Spelling

[ChouDoufu]

3 minutes ago, digger70 said:

If He would've been White there wouldn't  be any Drama, Just Bad luck on the Crims side ,as of Excessive Force  That's Debatable as he was a Crim one can't take Any chances so Force Has to be applied to the crim by the officers to protect themselves.

"not taking chances" means holding a dead guy down for three minutes and not performing CPR?

 

 

 

At 8:24 p.m., Floyd stopped moving. Kueng then checked Floyd’s right wrist for a pulse and said “I couldn’t find one.” The officers continued to hold their positions.

 

At 8:27 p.m., Chauvin removed his knee from Floyd’s neck as medics arrived. Floyd was taken away in the ambulance. He was pronounced dead at Hennepin Healthcare.

 

https://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2020/05/29/derek-chauvin-arrested-george-floyd-death-minneapolis-police-officer/

 

something else strange.  the cops were called about a simple case of an alleged counterfeit bill.  WHY did chauvin pull his gun and point it at floyd when he approached the car?

[EVENKEEL]

48 minutes ago, riclag said:

If they(Minnesota atty general) ,change the charge to 1 st degree murder ,as some want with a life sentence ,do you think this will be justice enough for the majority of protestors who have shown their anger for the knee cop?

I can only hope he doesn't get life, I think it would be enough for the legit protesters.

[digger70]

I tend to agree with you. However passing a fake $20 doesn't rate as the big time to me. 

 

He did,2009 did 5 yrs assault n robbery with a gun,later offences with violence,caught for passing fake cash on this occasion 

 

This should be enough to be careful and use some force.

[uffe123]

Mr. Floyd was a drug addict and at the time was high on Fentanyl, which is more potent than Heroin. also he was drunk. Altough I dont condone the action that the police office took and this should never have happened. If he hadnt tried to pass a 20.00 countereit bill, none of this would have happened. So who is really at fault here.

This guy wasnt a saint: In 2009 did 5 yrs assault n robbery with a gun,later offences with violence,caught for passing fake cash on this occasion 

Edited June 5, 2020 by uffe123
spelling

[kingdong]

7 hours ago, overherebc said:

Reports coming out that two of them had only one weeks experience on the streets.

Still that's no excuse for the knee on the neck.

Perhaps,but your first point answers your second,there is a chain of command in the police as in the military,very easy to pass opinion from the comfort of ones armchair.

[ChouDoufu]

Just now, digger70 said:

I tend to agree with you. However passing a fake $20 doesn't rate as the big time to me. 

 

He did,2009 did 5 yrs assault n robbery with a gun,later offences with violence,caught for passing fake cash on this occasion 

 

This should be enough to be careful and use some force.

the cops would not have had that information at the time.

 

all they had was a call from a minimart clerk that some dude allegedly tried to use an allegedly counterfeit bill.  nobody was "caught" doing anything, and a poster previously stated that no counterfeit bill was found.

[Billthekiwi]

5 minutes ago, uffe123 said:

Mr. Floyd was a drug addict and at the time was high on Fentanyl, which is more potent than Heroin. also he was drunk. Altough I dont condone the action that the police office took and this should never have happened. If he hadnt tried to pass a 20.00 countereit bill, none of this would have happened. So who is really at fault here.

This guy wasnt a saint: In 2009 did 5 yrs assault n robbery with a gun,later offences with violence,caught for passing fake cash on this occasion 

Yes this may be true but George did not deserve to die.

Whether it was malice or neglect is for the court to decide.

 

These 2 had a personal history so that may have played a part.

 

The time for protest was if the court delivered a verdict at odds with the evidence and not before.

[kingdong]

59 minutes ago, riclag said:

If they(Minnesota atty general) ,change the charge to 1 st degree murder ,as some want with a life sentence ,do you think this will be justice enough for the majority of protestors who have shown their anger for the knee cop?

So why not  get rid  of the justice system and just have " people's courts"? the road to hell is paved with good intentions.

[stevenl]

15 minutes ago, uffe123 said:

Mr. Floyd was a drug addict and at the time was high on Fentanyl, which is more potent than Heroin. also he was drunk. Altough I dont condone the action that the police office took and this should never have happened. If he hadnt tried to pass a 20.00 countereit bill, none of this would have happened. So who is really at fault here.

This guy wasnt a saint: In 2009 did 5 yrs assault n robbery with a gun,later offences with violence,caught for passing fake cash on this occasion 

Apparently the note was legit.

And no, no later offences.

Edited June 5, 2020 by stevenl

[RadicalVestor]

_{Its hard for me to imagine Chauvin making it all the way through a trail. His desire for the afterlife will be too strong, or there might be others who would view him as an obstacle that needs to be removed for political reasons.}

Edited June 5, 2020 by RadicalVestor

[Kelsall]

2 hours ago, Mick501 said:

They will very likely either get off or get light sentences because there are quite extreme mitigating circumstances.  A known violent offender, behaving erratically and on drugs.  It was certainly reasonable to use some force to ensure their safety.  The crowd encroaching only exacerbates the potential for injury to the cops.  

 

Additionally, the riots show just how real the dangers are to police.  It is not imagined or overstated.

 

it also appears there was an underlying medical condition.  Whilst not a legal defence, it is a mitigating factor in sentencing.  

 

It seems a knee jerk reaction to charge all 3 of the others present, given their attention was clearly elsewhere.  

 

In short, plenty of defences and mitigation for all concerned.  I'm not condoning what happened, but in terms of objective seriousness it is not nearly as severe as the murder of police and other people during the riots.  Very likely there would be more riots when acquittals or sentences come in.  The same agitators will certainly be out in force again.

 

as for federal charges, what would you suggest?  Wouldn't double jeopardy apply?

 

 

No, double jeopardy doesn't apply.

 

Here is some text from the link below re the Rodney King beating.  You can look all of this and more up on Google. 

 

STACEY C. KOON

Stacey C. Koon, an LAPD sergeant at the beating scene, was acquitted in state court but was one of two officers convicted of federal civil rights violations. He served 30 months in prison and wrote a book, raising $4 million in legal funds.

...

LAURENCE M. POWELL

Laurence M. Powell, the officer seen delivering the majority of the 56 baton blows during the 81 seconds of videotaped beating, was the only one not fully acquitted in the state trial. He was convicted with Koon in the federal case and was released in 1996 after serving a 30-month sentence.

 

https://graphics.latimes.com/towergraphic-where-they-are-now/

 

[digger70]

24 minutes ago, ChouDoufu said:

the cops would not have had that information at the time.

 

all they had was a call from a minimart clerk that some dude allegedly tried to use an allegedly counterfeit bill.  nobody was "caught" doing anything, and a poster previously stated that no counterfeit bill was found.

Mr. Floyd was a drug addict and at the time was high on Fentanyl, which is more potent than Heroin. also he was drunk 

That alone Was enough to Use Force. Any cop in Any country would've done same .No Matter what Colour the crim or the cop  was.

[ChouDoufu]

3 minutes ago, digger70 said:

Mr. Floyd was a drug addict and at the time was high on Fentanyl, which is more potent than Heroin. also he was drunk 

That alone Was enough to Use Force. Any cop in Any country would've done same .No Matter what Colour the crim or the cop  was.

the cops did not have that information at the time.

 

they knew only from the minimart clerk's call that someone had allegedly attempted to buy cigarettes with an alleged counterfeit bill.

 

why would a cop pull a gun and point it directly at a man sitting in his car with only that information? 

 

it's looking more and more like former officer chauvin and the late mister floyd had some unfinished business from their mutual employment.  and it's looking like soon-to-be inmate chauvin decided to finish it.

 

please.  try to explain away kneeling on a man's neck for nearly three minutes AFTER you've been informed he has no pulse.  explain away refusing to allow the other officers to move the man or render any assistance to a handcuffed man with no pulse.  please.  try.

[overherebc]

41 minutes ago, kingdong said:

Perhaps,but your first point answers your second,there is a chain of command in the police as in the military,very easy to pass opinion from the comfort of ones armchair.

If the cop had been black would we still be seeing the same protests?

[Mick501]

2 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

it's easy enough to google the specifics of the murder:

 

According to the charges filed against against the officers, Lane and Kueng helped Chauvin hold Floyd down while Thao stood nearby.

Floyd told the officers, “I can’t breathe” multiple times. He repeatedly said “mama” and “please" and said, "I'm about to die", but the officers did not move from their positions.

At one point, Lane asked, “Should we roll him on his side?” and Chauvin said no. Floyd eventually appeared to stop breathing or speaking. Kueng checked his pulse and found none, but none of the officers moved until the ambulance arrived a few minutes later.

 

https://q13fox.com/2020/06/03/3-other-minneapolis-police-officers-charged-in-george-floyds-death-chauvin-charges-upgraded/

 

 

Murder allegation.  Not sure we've done away with the presumption of innocence just yet, so perhaps wait to see whether they  are convicted and if so, on what charges.

 

The charge allegations are what the prosecutor states to be the Prima facie case they have to answer.   It is one side of the story, and there is doubtless still months of investigation.  They will obviously have lawyers funded by their police union who claim a very different set of facts in their defence.  

 

Im not excusing what we see on the video.  Just saying that there are good defences available and mitigating circumstances.  The onus is on the prosecution to a very high standard of proof (beyond reasonable doubt).  The defence team will largely keep their powder dry on their arguments, so it will not be known until the trial.  But do you really  think they are not going to make an argument?

[ChouDoufu]

3 minutes ago, Mick501 said:

Murder allegation.  Not sure we've done away with the presumption of innocence just yet, so perhaps wait to see whether they  are convicted and if so, on what charges.

 

The charge allegations are what the prosecutor states to be the Prima facie case they have to answer.   It is one side of the story, and there is doubtless still months of investigation.  They will obviously have lawyers funded by their police union who claim a very different set of facts in their defence.  

 

Im not excusing what we see on the video.  Just saying that there are good defences available and mitigating circumstances.  The onus is on the prosecution to a very high standard of proof (beyond reasonable doubt).  The defence team will largely keep their powder dry on their arguments, so it will not be known until the trial.  But do you really  think they are not going to make an argument?

 

sure, the courts will decide eventually.  but given the known facts:

 

police officer has his knee on a handcuffed and helpless suspect for nine minutes, cutting off air/blood flow.

 

at 6 minutes, a subordinate officer informs his superior the suspect has no pulse, and requests to move him.

 

the officer knowingly denies permission to his subordinate to move the suspect or render any aid.  he knowingly continues to press his knee into the neck of a bound suspect with no pulse.

 

he knowingly continues this for an additional 3 minutes until an ambulance arrives, ensuring the suspect can not be resuscitated, or if possible, will surely suffer brain damage.

 

i see murder.  i see intent.   but that's just my opinion.

 

i've asked before.  show me ANY mitigating circumstances at zero plus six minutes when chauvin is informed the man has no pulse.

 

go ahead.  try.

[Mick501]

1 hour ago, Kelsall said:

No, double jeopardy doesn't apply.

 

Here is some text from the link below re the Rodney King beating.  You can look all of this and more up on Google. 

 

STACEY C. KOON

Stacey C. Koon, an LAPD sergeant at the beating scene, was acquitted in state court but was one of two officers convicted of federal civil rights violations. He served 30 months in prison and wrote a book, raising $4 million in legal funds.

...

LAURENCE M. POWELL

Laurence M. Powell, the officer seen delivering the majority of the 56 baton blows during the 81 seconds of videotaped beating, was the only one not fully acquitted in the state trial. He was convicted with Koon in the federal case and was released in 1996 after serving a 30-month sentence.

 

https://graphics.latimes.com/towergraphic-where-they-are-now/

 

Interesting info thanks.  The charges are substantially different to the original charges King case, which is why double jeopardy wouldn't be in play.  King didn't die of course, but the actions of the cops in his case seemed much more deliberately violent than in this case.  Possibly harder to prove the intent of a civil rights violation when there's an underlying medical condition, although I'm not familiar with the specific elements required to be proved for that offence.   It does seem that if it were easy, it would be in very frequent use when an excessive force trial falls down at state level.

[Scouse123]

20 hours ago, robblok said:

Yes he had a rap sheet only they did not know that at the time of the arrest so it has nothing to do with it. Only what happend at the time had anything to do with his death. 

 

He was arrested for passing a fake note.. and it turned out to be untrue. 

 

That's not correct at all, or at least well short with the truth of his past.

 

He was jailed on many occasions for violence and drug use.

 

He got five years for forcing his way into a lady's house with a gun at the stomach of a pregnant woman, then threatening her, terrifying her, stealing her wallet and turning her house upside down looking for drugs, with others!.He was the driver and leader of the group.

 

He had further jail time for drugs offenses on a number of occasions.

 

He also worked as security on opposite shifts to the arresting officer charged with 3rd degree murder a few years before, so they did know each other.

 

However, all that said, eight minutes kneeling on the guys neck is unjustified, reckless and deserves charging. Some of the other officers were junior and one was on crowd control.

 

No matter what, that does not justify the level of violence used, mainly by blacks, to rob, murder and loot in the aftermath.

 

A number of black people murdered and looted, including a former police captain, where's the outrage? No, because it was black on black.

 

That was nothing to do with protesting, it was taking advantage of a situation to cause chaos and anarchy.

 

 

 

Edited June 5, 2020 by Scouse123

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, transam said:

You know them all then.......?

Of course he doesn't, but he thinks he does. Everyone currently slamming the cops would be screaming for their help if THEY or THEIR family were being attacked by violent armed criminals. Cops are human beings, good and bad. Dealing with the worst sort of person day in or day out and not knowing if one would still be alive at the end of the shift is not for people that sit safely behind a keyboard trashing brave people that put their lives on the line every day they go to work.

[thaibeachlovers]

17 minutes ago, Scouse123 said:

That was nothing to do with protesting, it was taking advantage of a situation to cause chaos and anarchy.

Indeed. Seems there is something in a part of the American population's psych that will use any excuse to cause mayhem.

Seen it many times before in my lifetime. The LA riots and the New York power cuts are just 2 of them.

Burning property and committing violence is nothing to do with protesting.

[thaibeachlovers]

7 hours ago, ChouDoufu said:

the cops did not have that information at the time.

No, but how many times previously had the cop been in a similar position? In a culture where cops face being gunned down merely for being cops, dare I say that they take measures to protect themselves that would not be used in a less threatening culture. Sometimes, and obviously in this situation it all goes wrong.

[thaibeachlovers]

15 hours ago, robblok said:

But does that mean he can check the guys criminal record ? I mean i always thought that database could not be used for private things.

What has that got to do with anything? Obviously I don't KNOW, but it's possible that they had a bad history from their time working in the same place. There are people I used to work with ( but have no access to their records ) that I'd be happy to see come to a sticky end.

[thaibeachlovers]

6 hours ago, Mick501 said:

Im not excusing what we see on the video.  Just saying that there are good defences available and mitigating circumstances.  The onus is on the prosecution to a very high standard of proof (beyond reasonable doubt).  The defence team will largely keep their powder dry on their arguments, so it will not be known until the trial.  But do you really  think they are not going to make an argument?

I just heard on the radio news that the guy leading the ?investigation/ prosecution into the 4 cops thinks it will be hard to get convictions.

To convict of murder need proof of intent. Seems to me that this at its most basic was a routine arrest that went wrong.

[daveAustin]

21 hours ago, robblok said:

career criminal or not.. does not matter only thing that matters is what happened at that time. The guy is no saint and he probably deserved punishment for crimes but that is not up to the police and certainly not a death penalty as what happened now.

 

So it really does not matter all that matters is if excessive force was applied or not. 

Yes, but, these cops are up against this carry on day in day out in a <deleted>ty environment and it's no secret that, unfortunately, a significant percentage of those on the wrong side of the law are black, so they are naturally on edge. Not condoning this at all, however, as the cop was way OTT. Folks can cry racism all they want, but that's how it is... not to mention white cops kill white people all the time and ask questions later with nary a mention. 

[Kelsall]

7 hours ago, Mick501 said:

Interesting info thanks.  The charges are substantially different to the original charges King case, which is why double jeopardy wouldn't be in play.  King didn't die of course, but the actions of the cops in his case seemed much more deliberately violent than in this case.  Possibly harder to prove the intent of a civil rights violation when there's an underlying medical condition, although I'm not familiar with the specific elements required to be proved for that offence.   It does seem that if it were easy, it would be in very frequent use when an excessive force trial falls down at state level.

https://www.wklaw.com/double-jeopardy-federal/

[simple1]

10 hours ago, digger70 said:

Mr. Floyd was a drug addict and at the time was high on Fentanyl, which is more potent than Heroin. also he was drunk 

That alone Was enough to Use Force. Any cop in Any country would've done same .No Matter what Colour the crim or the cop  was.

Complete nonsense. Force is used when circumstances dictate, but not homicidal physical force as confirmed by two autopsies,  We will have to wait the outcome of the Court cases before commenting further.

 

It is interesting so many members are playing lawyers in their attempts to defend the killings of an African American by a white police officer without knowing the actual evidence.

Edited June 5, 2020 by simple1