New Requirement for a Non O extention

[roger101]

After going to the bank this morning to pick up my Bank Statement (1 year for proof of income) and the letter for Immigration I went home and made sure that I had everything (double checked).  So after lunch of I went to Soi 5.  Not many people (3 in front of me).

Number called so I sat down and gave the man the paperwork.  On checking it thoroughly and going through the bank statement highlighting the FTT entries he said I need a bank statement from home.  I explained that I used Transferwise and he said he needed a some copies.  I asked how many, 1 or 1 year and he said 3 would do.

 

So of I went home to download 3 Conformations from Transferwise.  Duly printed, back to Soi 5. After making me sign them he took my money  and gave me the token and said come back tomorrow.

 

The request for the documents from Transferwise was new. Last year I stilled used the letter from the embassy.  Is this right or is it just Pattaya Immigration being awkward.  Last week before I started to put the paperwork together I checked what paperwork I would need and found no mention of documents relating to a foreign bank.

 

Anybody else had this.

[ubonjoe]

That was apparently their way of proving the source of your income. Some offices want a pension statement for the proof.

[DPKANKAN]

Yes in Kanchanaburi I had to show the money coming from my UK bank. I also did a dated spread sheet with all the figures and running totals. Even an Exchange rate in case they asked why the figures differed 555. The irritation lady loved it!! ????????????????????????????????

Edited June 8, 2020 by DPKANKAN
Spelling

[roger101]

19 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

That was apparently their way of proving the source of your income. Some offices want a pension statement for the proof.

Thanks Joe. It just seems that 17 sheets of paper for basically the same information over the years seems such a waste.

[marvin1950]

Why does immigration care how you earned your money to transfer from overseas as long as you show that the wire transfer is from a foreign bank.

 

Why does it matter if it is from a pension, savings, stock trades or an inheritance.

PS:  you can get a retirement Visa at 50.

 

Not many companies give a pension payout at 50.

 

How about you win the lottery in your country, you have to tell them.

Ridiculous

 

 

Edited June 8, 2020 by marvin1950
additional

[caughtintheact]

20 hours ago, ubonjoe said:

That was apparently their way of proving the source of your income. Some offices want a pension statement for the proof.

For what it's worth for years I brought funds over by ATM.  Now I do it by wire transfer.  This year, the IO at CW would not accept the foreign currency code in the bankbook or the International Wire Transfer Transfer Receipt confirmation of transfer from the bank abroad. The IO required a 1 year printout of my bankbook (it was only 3 months in past years) and a Credit Advice / Receipt letter from the local bank for the past 12 months. This document shows the source and destination of  funds   The bank at CW quickly provided 3 months of Credit Advice / Receipt letters at  no charge, but there was a fee of B500 for the remaining 9 letters, and I had to go back for them a few days later.  After they were submitted the process was completed.   The B500 fee is not charged if the letters are obtained either monthly or every three months.  The Credit Advice /Receipt is discussed with examples on elsewhere on this site. Note:  As I am grandfathered, what works for me might not work for someone else and vice versa.

[soisanuk]

21 hours ago, roger101 said:

After going to the bank this morning to pick up my Bank Statement (1 year for proof of income) and the letter for Immigration I went home and made sure that I had everything (double checked).  So after lunch of I went to Soi 5.  Not many people (3 in front of me).

Number called so I sat down and gave the man the paperwork.  On checking it thoroughly and going through the bank statement highlighting the FTT entries he said I need a bank statement from home.  I explained that I used Transferwise and he said he needed a some copies.  I asked how many, 1 or 1 year and he said 3 would do.

 

So of I went home to download 3 Conformations from Transferwise.  Duly printed, back to Soi 5. After making me sign them he took my money  and gave me the token and said come back tomorrow.

 

The request for the documents from Transferwise was new. Last year I stilled used the letter from the embassy.  Is this right or is it just Pattaya Immigration being awkward.  Last week before I started to put the paperwork together I checked what paperwork I would need and found no mention of documents relating to a foreign bank.

When I renewed my extension last June at Jomtien Immigration, I had obtained statements for the preceding 12 months certified by the Bank. However, this was not good enough - apparently the Immigration Officer (IO) didn't want to wade through numerous pages to identify those coded "FTT." Instead, she insisted I get a separate letter from the bank listing all foreign source deposits to my account.  So a bit surprised that they are now accepting the statements and going through them.   As to source, in my case I did have a pension letter from the source - so maybe they want the other source documents if you don't have one -- but thanks for the post as I will also have copies of my Transferwise Receipts for the deposits just in case when I go next week for my renewal. 

 

[chilly07]

Jomtien want to make sure you are not just recycling the same 40 or 65k every month by asking for FTT credit advices from abroad and source of income

[pizzachang]

On 6/8/2020 at 5:23 PM, ubonjoe said:

That was apparently their way of proving the source of your income. Some offices want a pension statement for the proof.

Ubonjoe,

  This is strange, to say the least.  Just 2 years ago, the US Social Security statement and my State pension letter "were not good enough" to verify my income. Now I have 1 more FTT code to go and then on to apply for an extension - now I have to have the SS and PERS statements again?   Here I was under an assumption again that I just needed a FTT transfer code to prove I am getting funds from a foreign source deposited into my Thai bank account. Now it sounds like we may be subject to "investigation" of our actual source of income. In your handy list of requirements for an extension based on marriage, I never saw a requirement like this. Did I miss something again?

Edited June 9, 2020 by pizzachang

[crazykopite]

That’s why I choose to have 800K in my Thai account it’s to much hassle since they stopped the embassy letter it’s bad enough with the 800k I think they are going to have a big rethink if they want to attract Foreigners for long term stays . I’ll be doing mine next week fingers crossed everything will be okay if not I might just pack up and move on as my wife has been stuck in the UK since lockdown I might just pull the shutters down on the villa and take a year out until everything has blown over ☹️

 

Edited June 9, 2020 by crazykopite

[ubonjoe]

14 minutes ago, pizzachang said:

Now it sounds like we may be subject to "investigation" of our actual source of income. In your handy list of requirements for an extension based on marriage, I never saw a requirement like this. Did I miss something again?

Not all office want proof of the source of your income.  The don't investigate it. It is just additional proof your are not moving the funds into the country then out and back again.

I have not put the new income proof in my list yet since it varies so much from office to office.

[AlfHuy]

 I did my extension of stay Non-immigrant O-A last week.

For the first time, I used the Embassy letter.

The IO didn't ask if and how much money I have transferred into Thailand. 

If they would ask that money comes from a pension, I would be in trouble as I don't get a pension yet.

 

Will it work next year again with the Embassy letter? Who knows.

Should I transfer every month a minimum of 65k?

 

Things change very quick here.

[JackThompson]

On 6/8/2020 at 5:56 PM, marvin1950 said:

Why does immigration care how you earned your money to transfer from overseas as long as you show that the wire transfer is from a foreign bank.

 

Why does it matter if it is from a pension, savings, stock trades or an inheritance.

PS:  you can get a retirement Visa at 50.

 

Not many companies give a pension payout at 50.

 

How about you win the lottery in your country, you have to tell them.

Ridiculous

In some offices, they deny the extension if you cannot show a "state pension" source.  That means you have to go to their agent-partner, and they get a bonus-payment.  That is why.  The "immigration" bit is just a front for the real business, at many offices.

 

15 minutes ago, AlfHuy said:

 I did my extension of stay Non-immigrant O-A last week.

For the first time, I used the Embassy letter.

The IO didn't ask if and how much money I have transferred into Thailand. 

If they would ask that money comes from a pension, I would be in trouble as I don't get a pension yet.

 

Will it work next year again with the Embassy letter? Who knows.

Should I transfer every month a minimum of 65k?

 

Things change very quick here.

Yes, they do - mid-retirement and w/o warning.  Hardly relaxing.  Doesn't really make one want to put a lot of assets here.

I would make the xfers and document them, so you cannot get caught-out later - though that just means paying an agent 15K to 25K, which is what they are after, anyway.  Of course, those agent-fees could also change w/o notice.

[Presnock]

As I mentioned last week, I did my yearly extensionat Chiangmai immigration, based on at least monthly 65000 baht from overseas to Bangkok Bank...but I had notice several people mention that some IO's like to also have the credit advise which I obtained overnight at my local bangkok bank in addition to the two  bank letters (one copy of certifying my acct and one of 12 monthly statements frm my bank book). Io also asked for a copy of my bank book pages while I was waiting.  I also had letter from US govt retirement office of my monthly payments, chart showing exactly how much was paid to my us bank each month and then I also included the us bank receipts of fund fm govt and the transfer requests from my us bank to bangkok bank.  IO laughed and said " oh very much banking" but total waiting in immigration after arrival near 10AM was less than 30 and they announced that my any queue # over 45 come back at 1 o'clock.  I went to lunch, and came back at 1 and only waited another 10 minutes until I walked out with the new stamp.  Willing to spend that little time with no hassles whatsoever except for the number of pages I copied off my printer at home, plus two short trips to bank to arrange for letters and then pick up the following day.  Much better than during the days of embassy letters where I would have to arrive at IO in the wee dark hours if I hoped to spend just the morning there waiting.

[4MyEgo]

On 6/8/2020 at 8:44 PM, roger101 said:

Thanks Joe. It just seems that 17 sheets of paper for basically the same information over the years seems such a waste.

Only 17, count your lucky stars ????

 

[Max69xl]

On 6/8/2020 at 5:56 PM, marvin1950 said:

Why does immigration care how you earned your money to transfer from overseas as long as you show that the wire transfer is from a foreign bank.

 

Why does it matter if it is from a pension, savings, stock trades or an inheritance.

PS:  you can get a retirement Visa at 50.

 

Not many companies give a pension payout at 50.

 

How about you win the lottery in your country, you have to tell them.

Ridiculous

 

 

If you win the lottery, you don't need a monthly income. Then you use the money in the bank method instead,and no one at immigration asks for the source. Get it? Asking for the source does normally only concern applicants without an income letter from their embassy/consulate.

[marvin1950]

Udonjoe:

Proof your not moving money in and out of Thailand?

 

Wouldn't your bank statement show   xxxx baht credit your account and a  xxxx baht debit to your account.

Now immigration officers are forensic accountants.

Please spare me.

Most immigration officers just finish level 6 in school.

 

[pizzachang]

13 hours ago, Presnock said:

the credit advise which I obtained overnight at my local bangkok bank

What is this letter?  What are the requirement to get it from Bangkok Bank? (also my bank_

Thanks in advance

[marvin1950]

Max69xl

Not if your lottery win is paid out as an annuity.

What if you are 51?  no pension no social security.

Leave 800,000 baht in the bank with an  unstable government earning 0.75% interest with withdrawal restrictions.

 

No thank you

 

 

[RocketDog]

17 hours ago, caughtintheact said:

For what it's worth for years I brought funds over by ATM.  Now I do it by wire transfer.  This year, the IO at CW would not accept the foreign currency code in the bankbook or the International Wire Transfer Transfer Receipt confirmation of transfer from the bank abroad. The IO required a 1 year printout of my bankbook (it was only 3 months in past years) and a Credit Advice / Receipt letter from the local bank for the past 12 months. This document shows the source and destination of  funds   The bank at CW quickly provided 3 months of Credit Advice / Receipt letters at  no charge, but there was a fee of B500 for the remaining 9 letters, and I had to go back for them a few days later.  After they were submitted the process was completed.   The B500 fee is not charged if the letters are obtained either monthly or every three months.  The Credit Advice /Receipt is discussed with examples on elsewhere on this site. Note:  As I am grandfathered, what works for me might not work for someone else and vice versa.

I had a similar issue with my OA extension last month. Bangkok Bank gave me a transaction report for the last 6 months for 100฿, but couldn't give me the earlier six months without waiting several days for a report from the main bank in Bangkok. 

I've adopted a practice recommended by @Peter Denis of going every 6 months or less and getting a bank report. Then just take them all into for the extension annually. 

[soisanuk]

2 hours ago, pizzachang said:

What is this letter?  What are the requirement to get it from Bangkok Bank? (also my bank_

Thanks in advance

Bangkok Bank creates an internal document for each foreign deposits called a "Credit Advice" showing amount and source - you should be able to get print out from a Bangkok Bank branch. But most branches can only do for the past 6 months. Likewise with providing certified bank statement(s). 

Last June when I renewed at Jomtien Immigration (first time to have to show deposits for monthly income method), I initially obtained certified bank statements from the Bangkok Bank service counter in Tesco-Lotus South.  They had to order them from Bangkok HQ because they could only provide 6 months activity locally. I had to wait a week to get them.  However, when I went to Jomtien Immigration, the Immigration Officer said "no" to the statements - she wanted a bank letter listing foreign deposits. She provided me with a "sample" letter and told me to go to the branch where I opened my account to get 12 months of activity - she said other branches could not provide the full 12 months.

I took the sample letter to the branch where I opened my account and showed them the sample -- it was handled at the window that does currency exchange.  They did provide 12 months of activity.  First, they printed out a "Credit Advice" for each deposit (fee 500 baht, which is evidently the fee without regard to the number of Advices printed).  They used these as the source for doing the letter listing all the foreign deposits (fee 100 baht). They gave me the letter and all the Advices.

Back to Immigration to see the IO (didn't have to queue) - she took the letter to add to my documents - she didn't want the "Advice printouts".

Next week I go for my renewal, so I plan to visit the branch where I opened my account to again get the bank letter - as well as the one verifying the account & balance (same one as required when using the 800k) as Jomtien Immigration will want both.  I will again have my Notice from the US Office of Personnel Management (I am a Civil Service retiree) showing the amount of my monthly pension.

[from the home of CC]

On 6/9/2020 at 4:08 PM, chilly07 said:

Jomtien want to make sure you are not just recycling the same 40 or 65k every month by asking for FTT credit advices from abroad and source of income

Exactly, you can blame the scammers from your own countries for every check in veracity that cause inconvenience.  

[JackThompson]

4 hours ago, from the home of CC said:

Exactly, you can blame the scammers from your own countries for every check in veracity that cause inconvenience.  

If they Really CARED that the money is "real" - they would not give those faking money with their agent-partners the best service.  Do you really not get what their hassle-game is all about? 

I assure you, from experience, they Do Not Care if your application is "legit" or not - only if they can find some way to force you to their agent.

Need Proof?  They Increased the Seasoning of money for Honest Applicants, yet they still skip All Seasoning Checks for faked-money agent applications.  The goal was to Disqualify More Honest people, and force them to pay agent-laundered bonus-money.

Edited June 10, 2020 by JackThompson

[marvin1950]

Your Thai bank statement would show the money transferred in and transferred out to show you are "recycling" your money.

[Peter Denis]

On 6/9/2020 at 12:53 PM, AlfHuy said:

 I did my extension of stay Non-immigrant O-A last week.

For the first time, I used the Embassy letter.

The IO didn't ask if and how much money I have transferred into Thailand. 

If they would ask that money comes from a pension, I would be in trouble as I don't get a pension yet.

 

Will it work next year again with the Embassy letter? Who knows.

Should I transfer every month a minimum of 65k?

 

Things change very quick here.

When you use the +65K monthly-income transfer method OR the embassy issued income statement method, it is at the discretion of the immigration officer handling your application whether they want you to provide proof of the source of your foreign income.

If the IO only accepts a 'pension statement' as proof of your foreign income (even though the PoliceOrder clearly allows for other sources like dividends, rental income, etc), then it is indeed Game Over for you.

And in that case the only method still remaining is the 800K money-in-bank method.  Of course when they reject your application for the 1-year extension of stay because you cannot show a 'pension-statement', you cannot retro-actively meet the 800K money-in-bank requirements anymore.  Meaning you would have to leave the country and (re-)apply for a Non Imm O retirement Visa from scratch (which in case you were applying for an extension based on your original Non Imm O-A Visa, would not be a bad thing as you would not be required anymore to meet the mandatory thai IO-approved health-insurance requirement which is only applicable for 1-year retirement extensions based on your original Non Imm O-A Visa).

The other alternative is to make use of an agent with the right connections at your local IO to 'fix' the problem.  Obviously for a hefty fee as it would include a 'brown envelope' for the immigration officer to overlook the pension-statement non-requirement.  Would be the Perfect Scam, as this source of foreign income evidence is up to the discretion of the immigration officer handling your application, so he can not be challenged for not enquiring about it.

[Peter Denis]

2 hours ago, marvin1950 said:

Your Thai bank statement would show the money transferred in and transferred out to show you are "recycling" your money.

Yes, Immigration could find out if you would have been so stupid as to use the same thai bank-account to do the transfers out and back in again.  But obviously if you did withdraw the money from your thai bank-account cash from an ATM, and then put them in another bank-account, you could use DeeMoney to transfer the funds abroad to your foreign bank-account again, and then from that foreign bank-account do the monthly-income transfer to the thai bank-account you use for Immigration purposes.  Doing so Immigration would have no way of ever knowing that you are 'recycling' the money.

But obviously doing the above is not Immigration fool-proof, because it is at the discretion of the immigration officer handling your application to ask for evidence of the source of your foreign income.  So it is that discretionary power of Immigration to require proof of the source of your income that will actually enable immigration to avoid you to 'recycle' your funds. 

Note: In view of the above, it is thus rather senseless that Immigration wants to see all those bank-documents to prove your funds were transferred from abroad.  Them asking you to prove the source of your foreign income would be much easier both for the applicant as well as for immigration.  But limiting that proof only to a 'pension-statement' (because that's the only proof they would be able to understand) would create an impossible situation for those 50+ retirees that do not yet receive pension, so we have to live with these over-the-top bank requirements that are in fact not even able to avoid you could still recycle your funds, but only show that the money 'comes from abroad'.

 

[JackThompson]

1 hour ago, Peter Denis said:

Yes, Immigration could find out if you would have been so stupid as to use the same thai bank-account to do the transfers out and back in again.  But obviously if you did withdraw the money from your thai bank-account cash from an ATM, and then put them in another bank-account, you could use DeeMoney to transfer the funds abroad to your foreign bank-account again, and then from that foreign bank-account do the monthly-income transfer to the thai bank-account you use for Immigration purposes.  Doing so Immigration would have no way of ever knowing that you are 'recycling' the money.

But obviously doing the above is not Immigration fool-proof, because it is at the discretion of the immigration officer handling your application to ask for evidence of the source of your foreign income.  So it is that discretionary power of Immigration to require proof of the source of your income that will actually enable immigration to avoid you to 'recycle' your funds. 

Note: In view of the above, it is thus rather senseless that Immigration wants to see all those bank-documents to prove your funds were transferred from abroad.  Them asking you to prove the source of your foreign income would be much easier both for the applicant as well as for immigration.  But limiting that proof only to a 'pension-statement' (because that's the only proof they would be able to understand) would create an impossible situation for those 50+ retirees that do not yet receive pension, so we have to live with these over-the-top bank requirements that are in fact not even able to avoid you could still recycle your funds, but only show that the money 'comes from abroad'.

 

But if under retirement-pension age, and with Valid Foreign Income which is not a "pension," you can be deined your extension (has happened to me - with bank-statement-proof plus an embassy-letter). 

This while, as you correctly point out, anyone could simply send funds over and back for "foreign deposit proof."  They could also forge a foreign-pension statement.

 

The logical solution was NOT to complain to our embassy officials about the Embassy Letters we had - complaints which led to this service ending for several countries' citizens.  Those letters were signed under Felony Perjury statutes in the applicant's home country, so the solution was to refer anyone found to be indigent for prosecution, if they obtained an extension based on Embassy income-letters.  For that matter - just entry-ban those found to be indigent, and they are gone for good, anyway.

 

The problem is, Immigration don't care if you "really have the money," or not - as evidenced by them skipping money-seasoning checks on Agent-Envelope applications.  Agent-supplied funds are in the applicants acount for mere Minutes, yet this is "OK"?  In light of this fact, it is clear that point of all this "crackdown" bull, was never to "stop bad guys," it was to maximize agent-envelope revenue. 

Edited June 11, 2020 by JackThompson

[from the home of CC]

15 hours ago, JackThompson said:

If they Really CARED that the money is "real" - they would not give those faking money with their agent-partners the best service.  Do you really not get what their hassle-game is all about? 

I assure you, from experience, they Do Not Care if your application is "legit" or not - only if they can find some way to force you to their agent.

Need Proof?  They Increased the Seasoning of money for Honest Applicants, yet they still skip All Seasoning Checks for faked-money agent applications.  The goal was to Disqualify More Honest people, and force them to pay agent-laundered bonus-money.

I agree that corruption exists here like everywhere and imo the agent route will eventually disappear which will lower the income of a few but will enable a large amount of trash to to be taken to the dump..

[marvin1950]

I did not know immigration officers have a degree in forensic accounting.

Showing proof of income in a foreign currency and converting to thai baht.

 

Really?  I don't think so.

Someone please show me in the Thai Immigration law that you are required to show proof of income.

All I read was a monthly wire for 12 months from overseas into a Thai bank account of 65,000 baht?

[JackThompson]

2 hours ago, from the home of CC said:

I agree that corruption exists here like everywhere and imo the agent route will eventually disappear which will lower the income of a few but will enable a large amount of trash to to be taken to the dump..

To accomplish that would require something drastic - like handing over the reigns to the Singapore police to do the investigation, or similar.  That envelope-money doesn't stop at the local-office, or agents would have been shut down long ago - as "un-sanctioned" rackets have been (see Sadao's 100-Baht per-entrant racket, as an example).

 

25 minutes ago, marvin1950 said:

Someone please show me in the Thai Immigration law that you are required to show proof of income.

All I read was a monthly wire for 12 months from overseas into a Thai bank account of 65,000 baht?

Unfortunately, extension applications are not limited to the "published requirements."   Each office is given leeway from their superiors to "improvise" agent-marketing techniques, with unique hurdles, in order to maximize revenue into the "multi level marketing" network.