41 minutes ago, curious297 said:

Poster JVS, You say "Never happened." How interesting you are going to tell me what I saw against what you believe I saw. You can tell me 110% it never happened bearing in mind you was not there? We are blessed you are not a judge of law.

Because Black pete just does not collect. Its not done, his role is to give candy and toys. Never ever do they collect money. What you are describing is highly unlikely. The Black pete is often funded by shopkeepers and city hall. They don't collect.

 

The Dutch who tried to educate you were wrong. If any the black figures come from Moorish people in Spain way back. hence the noblemens dressing of way back. They were never slaves. 

42 minutes ago, ThailandRyan said:

Think you better check your facts and read a little history. What he did believe was that, like all men, blacks had the right to improve their condition in society and to enjoy the fruits of their labor. In this way they were equal to white men, and for this reason slavery was inherently unjust.

 

https://www.history.com/news/5-things-you-may-not-know-about-lincoln-slavery-and-emancipation

I know the facts about Lincoln and the civil war without having to post random links i just looked up, but I can if you want. Lincoln is not the man US students have been brainwashed about in school or on 5 things you never knew selcted propaganda sites. He was against blacks having the vote, thought them inferior to whites and was dead set against them holding public office or mixed marriages. It is arguable he thought slavery was imoral, but that did not stop him representing slave owners in court to get slaves back, or famously stating if he could have saved the Union by freeing some slaves and not others or none at all he would have. He only frreed the slaves 21 months in to a war, which was not being fought to free them, and then he did not free the slaves in the Union states, only in the south where he actually had no power to enforce it. It was only done as a tactic to help win the war and prevent recognition of the confedercy by Britain. He was a tyrant and more interested in tax than freeing anybody at all.

59 minutes ago, Orton Rd said:

I know the facts about Lincoln and the civil war without having to post random links i just looked up, but I can if you want. Lincoln is not the man US students have been brainwashed about in school or on 5 things you never knew selcted propaganda sites. He was against blacks having the vote, thought them inferior to whites and was dead set against them holding public office or mixed marriages. It is arguable he thought slavery was imoral, but that did not stop him representing slave owners in court to get slaves back, or famously stating if he could have saved the Union by freeing some slaves and not others or none at all he would have. He only frreed the slaves 21 months in to a war, which was not being fought to free them, and then he did not free the slaves in the Union states, only in the south where he actually had no power to enforce it. It was only done as a tactic to help win the war and prevent recognition of the confedercy by Britain. He was a tyrant and more interested in tax than freeing anybody at all.

Not a random link, true historical information of which is used along with others in a history course I taught as a teacher once upon a time.  You must then know that in 1861, former U.S. Senator Jefferson Davis took to a podium for his presidential inaugural and gave an impassioned speech about the Constitution. Three weeks later, Abraham Lincoln did likewise, with different results.  Davis had different views and was pro-slavery, and as far as getting rid of Lincoln and his beliefs he went to great lengths to divide the US.  As a History Major myself, I have spent time in the National Archives and researched quite a bit of the things you say.  Not all opinions are correct or the views people held.  History is full of mis-truths and truths, but look up the Missouri Compromise and William Clark.  But then we could go back nd forth all day long.  There are two sides to the fence called history.  Brothers killed brothers and families were divided over beliefs leading up to and during the Civil War.  To each his own.

5 hours ago, jvs said:

Why do you think JJ is right about this?

It is about a Dutch cultural childrens event,nothing to do with slavery.

Sure some one will feel offended,easy to do!

Grow up and get over it!

JJ does not know what he talks about ....but that seems to be standard for American politicians

I am a Flemish (= Dutch speaking) Belgian born in 1944 and as a kid I was visited at home every year by St Nicholas and Black Pete (until the age of 10 I had no clue that my parents arranged this visit and that they would buy the toys).  Never did I think that Black Pete had something to do with American slavery and never did I think anything denigrating was happening ....but I was scared of Black Pete because he had a bag in which he was supposed to take away all the children who behaved badly (as reported to them beforehand by the parents). Then of course I promised to be a good buy in future and the visit ended ????

7 hours ago, yuyiinthesky said:

Black Pete racist? Utter nonsense! Chimney soot is not racist, or is it now?

Depends what colour you are under the soot.

5 hours ago, robblok said:

The guy is wrong has no clue about this practice. I certainly am not racist never saw this as racist. Its just a tradition for kids. When we get older we know its not real. People can get offended about anything but this certainly has no racist meaning. Its a kids holiday for crying out loud. 

 

It has no relation to real black people at all, the stuff they wear is based on the clothes worn by nobility in the 16th century. They are spreading candy. So much for discrimination. 

 

If you want to fight discrimination go after real stuff, there is enough of it.

 

I agree with you Rob.

 

But the retort from the politically correct is that we "white oppressors" cannot understand as you must look through the eyes of "people of colour" (the latest and often misunderstood fashionable terminology) to understand and appreciate what offends them.

 

In essence, the opinions of white people, who cannot be racially discriminated against, aren't relevant.

 

What's worrying is I see this retort on social media from many 20 something university educated young professionals and students. 

1 minute ago, Baerboxer said:

 

I agree with you Rob.

 

But the retort from the politically correct is that we "white oppressors" cannot understand as you must look through the eyes of "people of colour" (the latest and often misunderstood fashionable terminology) to understand and appreciate what offends them.

 

In essence, the opinions of white people, who cannot be racially discriminated against, aren't relevant.

 

What's worrying is I see this retort on social media from many 20 something university educated young professionals and students. 

It's strange and yes people seem to be really bias. 

 

A black rapper said that he would want to kick black pete in the face. Later he got threats on his facebook. Then he went to the police about those threats. The idiot should not have started with advertising violence himself.

 

But he stated it was meant artistically not for real. Just really stupid guy starting to advocate violence and then receiving violent threats and feeling wronged.

 

I am against all violence and stuff but this is one of those things that shows the double standard some people have. I am black i can say this but you can't comment back.

 

There is racism in the Netherlands but it certainly does not come from Black Pete, go after real racism not after some children holiday that we as adults don't even think about and the kids never connect to slavery. Especially not now where Black pete is the good guy in the story. 

 

 

20 minutes ago, fvw53 said:

JJ does not know what he talks about ....but that seems to be standard for American politicians

I am a Flemish (= Dutch speaking) Belgian born in 1944 and as a kid I was visited at home every year by St Nicholas and Black Pete (until the age of 10 I had no clue that my parents arranged this visit and that they would buy the toys).  Never did I think that Black Pete had something to do with American slavery and never did I think anything denigrating was happening ....but I was scared of Black Pete because he had a bag in which he was supposed to take away all the children who behaved badly (as reported to them beforehand by the parents). Then of course I promised to be a good buy in future and the visit ended ????

Then after 10 we know its all fake but keep our mouth shut for the younger kids. Never did we see it als denigrating or slavery related. Plus in recent years Black Pete is more and more the good guy and the "Sint" old white guy is incompetent in the stories. 

 

Its all about spreading happiness and making kids happy. i don't see the problem. If people don't want to participate then let them. But those who like the holiday should be free to do so. It should be up to local governments to have this party or not. 

1 hour ago, ThailandRyan said:

Not a random link, true historical information of which is used along with others in a history course I taught as a teacher once upon a time.  You must then know that in 1861, former U.S. Senator Jefferson Davis took to a podium for his presidential inaugural and gave an impassioned speech about the Constitution. Three weeks later, Abraham Lincoln did likewise, with different results.  Davis had different views and was pro-slavery, and as far as getting rid of Lincoln and his beliefs he went to great lengths to divide the US.  As a History Major myself, I have spent time in the National Archives and researched quite a bit of the things you say.  Not all opinions are correct or the views people held.  History is full of mis-truths and truths, but look up the Missouri Compromise and William Clark.  But then we could go back nd forth all day long.  There are two sides to the fence called history.  Brothers killed brothers and families were divided over beliefs leading up to and during the Civil War.  To each his own.

Most of the mis information is about the causes and objectives of the war, certainly not to free the slaves and IMO, and Jeffersons the confedercay had the right to suceed from what they saw as tyranical government. If Lincoln had lost he would have udoubtably been tried as a traitor for ignoring the constitution he had sworn to uphold. The confederacy could not actually fight a war to keep slavery against a foe who was not interested in ending it. If they are tearing down conferderate statues they certainly should be taking down Lincolns at least. The two presidents views of the conflict:

 

 "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause." The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln edited by Roy P. Basler, Volume V, "Letter to Horace Greeley" (August 22, 1862), p. 388.

 

I tried all in my power to avert this war. I saw it coming, for twelve years I worked night and day to prevent it, but I could not. The North was mad and blind; it would not let us govern ourselves, and so the war came, and now it must go on unless you acknowledge our right to self government. We are not fighting for slavery. We are fighting for Independence. Jefferson Davis

Can you still drink black coffee or is that forbidden also ( exit uncle Ben's and others)

Lightweights. In australia we have Coon cheese.

Jessie Jackson. Well just for fun ive asked the Thais i know have they heard of Him.   Michael Jacksons Farther every time.

1 hour ago, matta said:

Can you still drink black coffee or is that forbidden also ( exit uncle Ben's and others)

Aunt Jamimas Pancake Mixtures next. This naturally confuses  the Irish, because they enjoy jokes about themselves 

Black Jack Pershing's name will need to be removed from history as well.  The Black Cab company will have to change its name as well for you Brits.

The way the headline was worded at first I thought Rutte had written that he wanted Jackson, aka 'Black Pete', banned because Jesse was a racist.

The Dutch should tell him to mind his own business. Jackson is not Dutch and nobody made him World Police of Political Correctness.

9 hours ago, jvs said:

Yes i am wondering where this will all end,every one is offended or feeling discriminated against!

I grew up with 'not white Pete'it is part of Dutch culture,leave it alone.

Just wondering what would happen if a well adjusted non white Dutch citizen wants to play black Pete?

They would have to paint him white?

 

Yep, Long time ago ,Remember when Sinterklaas  &  Zwarte Piet came to the schools ,

Remember  Speculaas & Pepernoten  Yum

 Zwarte Piet   &    Sinterklaas  Presents Dec 6  Can't change that !  ????

10 hours ago, BobBKK said:

Pathetic Jackson again.

But not only Jackson. Seems like half of worlds population have gone through a kind of pathetic reset.

9 hours ago, NanLaew said:

I think Black Pete should be abolished.

 

Then the Dutch people can move on... and build a statue memorializing him.

Statues are out.

 

49 minutes ago, 4737 Carlin said:

The Dutch should tell him to mind his own business. Jackson is not Dutch and nobody made him World Police of Political Correctness.

Jackson is in the USA They don't have Black Pete there , I am Ex Dutch and I will tell him to mind his Own business in the USA and keep his Black nose out of the Netherlands Black Pete.  ☹️

7 minutes ago, hugocnx said:

Statues are out.

 

I don't think you got the sarcasm.

 

11 hours ago, webfact said:

Ban 'racist Black Pete' Jesse Jackson writes Dutch PM Rutte

It's got nothing to do with Racism and  nothing to do with Black African Americans .

He should keep his mouth shut and mind his own USA Business

 

The character first appeared in an 1850 book by Amsterdam schoolteacher Jan Schenkman. Traditionally, Zwarte Piet is black because he is a Moor from Spain. Those portraying Zwarte Piet usually put on blackface and colourful Renaissance attire in addition to curly wigs and bright red lipstick.

10 hours ago, NanLaew said:

I think Black Pete should be abolished.

 

Then the Dutch people can move on... and build a statue memorializing him.

What you think may not be imported to the Dutch  

16 minutes ago, jvs said:

I don't think you got the sarcasm.

 

I don't think you ought to think on my behalf.

Yet the South Ice Cream Vans still play Old Zip Coon. No one takes any notice.

6 minutes ago, digger70 said:

It's got nothing to do with Racism and  nothing to do with Black African Americans .

He should keep his mouth shut and mind his own USA Business

 

The character first appeared in an 1850 book by Amsterdam schoolteacher Jan Schenkman. Traditionally, Zwarte Piet is black because he is a Moor from Spain. Those portraying Zwarte Piet usually put on blackface and colourful Renaissance attire in addition to curly wigs and bright red lipstick.

Books  by Enid Blyton & Agetha Christie among others have been similarly tampered with to sanitize some of the content & even Guy Gibson's dog endured same when they remade the Dambusters. 

Pathetic non sense. This story is already taking too long, how much longer is left for the presidential election? So finally this group of demented people, used by the Democratic Party, will return to their lairs.

When the Americans are going to abolish : 

a) old fat man, who promotes obesity, holds little dwarfs at the North Pole as slaves to make toys, and forces reindeer in front of a sledge into the cold winter air around 25 Dec.?

b) awake a ground hogg out of its winter sleep to "forecast" the coming spring and summer ?

As soon as THAT happens, we Dutch will abolish an over 2000 years old story, transformed as so many old Germanic festivals into Christian coloured ones....

 

As many should know, many pagan festivals are transformed into Christian coloured ones.

Mid winter became Christmas, mid Summer Pentecost, Spring became Eastern even coupled to the appearance of the morning star, the planet named after the goddess Freya or Venus, fire crackers, noise, etc to chase the bad spirits away to step over into the new year became our Old & New, and.. Wodan/Odin ( also the god of the poets and story tellers) on his white horse Sleipnir galloping through the sky, accompanied by his to B L A C K ravens Huginn en Muninn, Who brought him news from the humans worth to pay a visit.

This all changed to a Christian bishop from (nowadays Turkish) Myra, accompanied by two servants ( later: former slaves, and as in the East Mediterranean, coming via the Muslim slave routes), riding on his white horse over the roofs, bring gifts to the good and punishment to the bad children. Elder persons make an ironic story in rhyme about good & wrongdoing of the target person, who receives their gift, to be read by that person with all others present to laugh ( and NEVER to hurt ) 

 

Racism of even excluding children out of these parties for children: I was 11 years Black Peter, and the opposite happened: a little school with 12-16 pupils,. but for Sinterklaas.. we had to hire a big place, as we got in 100-150 children from everywhere... the same village, parents/friends / family who visited that little school, whatever. Gift in the cart with name on, story in the Big Book of Sinterklaas, and... a voluntary contribution to pay all costs was very welcome.

Only in some cities, BLACK Peter has changed under pressure of rioters here, like The Ashanti origin Rapper Akwasi ... who said during the demonstration in Amsterdam to "kick any Black Peter in his face". 

https://www.dagelijksestandaard.nl/2020/06/volgende-agressieve-haatrapper-meldt-zich-ronnie-flex-als-ik-een-zwarte-piet-zie-trap-ik-in-zijn-gezicht/

 

As usual, Americans do not have even the beginning of the faintest knowledge about attitudes and ways of life in other areas of the world. So.. start first to stop your own racism before you even THINK in other countries exist the same. 

Bye-the-way: any idea, where Netherlands is situated ? Maybe a part of Russia ? Ask "The Donald". 

 

 

 

This guy sounds amazing.

10 hours ago, stevenl said:

Black peet is the one with the roe.

 

Don't kid yourself, originally he was the scary guy.

So, what has that to do with any slavery / racism ? 

Can ANY American imagine, ever, a more-or-less brown tanted man to punish naughty white children ?