UK ready to quit EU on 'Australia terms' if no Brexit deal, Johnson says

[Logosone]

28 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Well you correctly have described how the UK delegated some of its decision making power to EU institutions. SInce joining, the next huge step was the Maastricht Treaty, which, as you say, was ratified by Parliament. But I can and will argue that the UK did lose sovereignty over time, even though this loss was ratified (very close votes) by Parliament. However, these losses occurred when further referenda should have been held in the UK, as they were in some other european countries. I believe that the EU idea would have been firmly rejected by a UK referendum in 1992.

 

Yes, importantly, as Brexit has shown this delegation of sovereignty was able to be stopped/revoked. But how long would the ability to actually have national referendums have existed for had we stayed in? It would have been far better to have had the referendum in 1992, then we could have been out before the creation of this overtly political EU, rather than the economic bloc that most thought we were joining in 1972 and 1975. The narrative that Britain was no longer a sovereign nation was true, if you consider sovereignty in its complete and full sense.

The EU is an evolving beast, and certainly when the UK joined most constitutional lawyers did not appreciate the full extent of the delegation of sovereignty to EU institutions. Let alone politicians or anyone else. It took case law to establish the full extent of the transfer of sovereignty. It's true obviously the EU started out as an economic enterprise and became a political one.

 

The UK delegated decision making power, sovereignty if you will, okay, but the fact that it could so easily reclaim it would surely indicate that this sovereignty was not "lost" only temporarily ceded? Moreover it was the Houses of Parliament that approved Brexit and the reclaiming of sovereignty, so where is the loss?

 

Yes, for some time Britain voluntarily ceded some sovereignty. But it got it all back!

 

And at the time, manner and choosing of Britain's parliament, which ratified a UK referendum. So again, where is the loss?

 

 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by Logosone

[CorpusChristie]

3 minutes ago, bannork said:

true, it was only 37%, and then you throw in the 34% of the total voters who chose remain.

37% to 34%, it's not a lot of difference on such an important issue.

 

 

The difference was 1 million 300 000 votes .

1300000 more voters voted to leave rather than to remain 

[luckyluke]

Just now, nauseus said:

All it shows is that state pensions are not yet under EU control. Every EU member state is losing more sovereign control but you won't see that.

 

 

What I (I am 71+), and many others see is, that since its creation the E.U. has no influence at all on our daily life (man of the street), and that is a fact.

Your statement is a guess.

I/we know the E.U. is there, because we read and see about it in the media.

It stops there.

Presidents, and others with rank and titles, come and go in this E.U. thing.

As voting is mandatory in Belgium, it is a good thing we don't have to vote for them, or we should be obliged to vote every month. 

[nauseus]

3 minutes ago, Logosone said:

The EU is an evolving beast, and certainly when the UK joined most constitutional lawyers did not appreciate the full extent of the delegation of sovereignty to EU institutions. Let alone politicians or anyone else. It took case law to establish the full extent of the transfer of sovereignty. It's true obviously the EU started out as an economic enterprise and became a political one.

 

The UK delegated decision making power, sovereignty if you will, okay, but the fact that it could so easily reclaim it would surely indicate that this sovereignty was not "lost" only temporarily ceded? Moreover it was the Houses of Parliament that approved Brexit and the reclaiming of sovereignty, so where is the loss?

 

Yes, for some time Britain voluntarily ceded some sovereignty. But it got it all back!

 

And at the time, manner and choosing of Britain's parliament, which ratified a UK referendum. So again, where is the loss?

 

 

 

 

The basic loss, economically, has turned out to be about half a trillion pounds plus a trade deficit with the EU of at least £70 billion per year.

[CorpusChristie]

1 minute ago, luckyluke said:

What I (I am 71+), and many others see is, that since its creation the E.U. has no influence at all on our daily life (man of the street), and that is a fact.

What is the point of being a member of the E.U then ?

[Loiner]

18 minutes ago, luckyluke said:

What I (I am 71+), and many others see is, that since its creation the E.U. has no influence at all on our daily life (man of the street), and that is a fact.

 

No that is not a fact at all. It does not even come close to being nearly true.
It simply shows that you have been missing what has been going on around you for many years.

[Loiner]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

Is barstools an euphemism for a remainer, asking for a friend?

No, that would be barstewards that he's getting confused with.

[luckyluke]

21 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

What is the point of being a member of the E.U then ?

 I read it keep peace among the members. 

A fact is, Belgian is insignifiant by is own, we are now part of an important group. 

Maybe you know better/more reasons. 

[luckyluke]

8 minutes ago, Loiner said:

No that is not a fact at all. It does not even come close to being nearly true.
It simply shows that you have been missing what has been going on around you for many years.

Possibly, but if I missed it, in my opinion it can not be that important.

If something would have change drastically my life since 1993, I would have remarked it. 

I remarked the transition from Belgian Franc to Euro. 

[melvinmelvin]

3 hours ago, vogie said:

Is barstools an euphemism for a remainer, asking for a friend?

 

555 555, no not really but I see what you mean (me thinks),

to me it looks as if all parties focus too much on the past

 

the past always serves as useful ballast - but barstools are normally tall and often swivel,

hence, usefull for forward looking

with the occ. swivel and look into the past for picking up some guidance on how not to err again

 

should think that this virii menace would offer ample oppo. for focused thinking

 

[tomacht8]

31 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

What is the point of being a member of the E.U then ?

peace and security

Central and Western Europe have never seen such a long period without war. The EU is the most successful peace project in human history. In 2012 the EU received the Nobel Peace Prize. We Europeans not only have a lot in common in economic and cultural terms - we also share the values of democracy.

 

domestic market

The internal market is the most developed and open market in the world. It is based on the four fundamental freedoms that enable you and other EU citizens live and work in any EU country,

to take advantage of the free capital market sell goods across borders or offer services.

Strict food and environmental standards Because the EU countries work so closely together, our food and environmental quality meet the highest standards. Businesses in the EU cannot sell contaminated food with impunity or pollute our rivers and landscapes.

 

World power

When the EU countries act together, their voice has more influence in world politics than 27 the small and medium-sized nations alone. We have political weight. We set standards in global trade with our regulatory standards and product standards.

 

Other EU benefits for citizens:

Wherever you are in the EU - you can use telephone and online services at no additional cost. You can also safely access your online video and music streaming services within the EU, because your personal data is protected under EU law.

 

Your travel rights: EU law protects your rights in the event of delays or cancellations. Whether you are traveling by plane, train, ship or bus - you are entitled to fair treatment.

 

Training and support for companies: EU programs like Erasmus + improve your chances on the job market through training.

 

There is also support for companies:

from financing to coaching, from company networks to exchanges.

 

The Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union protects workers from unfair treatment at work. Discrimination is not permitted, and this also applies to wages and salaries or layoffs. The EU protects its citizens from the effects of globalization by supporting small businesses and by ensuring that large companies pay their fair share of taxes.

[Rookiescot]

3 hours ago, CorpusChristie said:

No, the suggestion was that the UK may not be able to get food supplies from the EU and the reply to that was the rest of the world has adequate food supplies to replace those foods from the EU .

  It was the solution to a hypothetical problem, rather than being a "benefit"

No-one suggested that.

I just suggested that they will be more expensive.

Another Brexit bonus eh?

[nauseus]

11 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

peace and security

Central and Western Europe have never seen such a long period without war. The EU is the most successful peace project in human history. In 2012 the EU received the Nobel Peace Prize. We Europeans not only have a lot in common in economic and cultural terms - we also share the values of democracy.

 

domestic market

The internal market is the most developed and open market in the world. It is based on the four fundamental freedoms that enable you and other EU citizens live and work in any EU country,

to take advantage of the free capital market sell goods across borders or offer services.

Strict food and environmental standards Because the EU countries work so closely together, our food and environmental quality meet the highest standards. Businesses in the EU cannot sell contaminated food with impunity or pollute our rivers and landscapes.

 

World power

When the EU countries act together, their voice has more influence in world politics than 27 the small and medium-sized nations alone. We have political weight. We set standards in global trade with our regulatory standards and product standards.

 

Other EU benefits for citizens:

Wherever you are in the EU - you can use telephone and online services at no additional cost. You can also safely access your online video and music streaming services within the EU, because your personal data is protected under EU law.

 

Your travel rights: EU law protects your rights in the event of delays or cancellations. Whether you are traveling by plane, train, ship or bus - you are entitled to fair treatment.

 

Training and support for companies: EU programs like Erasmus + improve your chances on the job market through training.

 

There is also support for companies:

from financing to coaching, from company networks to exchanges.

 

The Charter of Fundamental Rights of the European Union protects workers from unfair treatment at work. Discrimination is not permitted, and this also applies to wages and salaries or layoffs. The EU protects its citizens from the effects of globalization by supporting small businesses and by ensuring that large companies pay their fair share of taxes.

More flashbacks on the way. Oooh nooo...

[Rookiescot]

3 hours ago, CorpusChristie said:

Why arent you out celebrating ?

  

Here is the real laugh mate. In a survey last week 49% of Conservative voters said they think Engurland should be independent.

Ask them the same question about Scottish independence and virtually all of them say no.

How does that work?

Oh yeah. English exceptionalism.

And apparently they dont do irony either ????.

[Rookiescot]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

Twisting again. You wanted to talk oranges. I didn't.

Go read your own posts lol 

[hotandsticky]

5 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Here is the real laugh mate. In a survey last week 49% of Conservative voters said they think Engurland should be independent.

Ask them the same question about Scottish independence and virtually all of them say no.

How does that work?

Oh yeah. English exceptionalism.

And apparently they dont do irony either ????.

 

 

 

Looks like (once again) I am in the 51%-ers.

[Rookiescot]

58 minutes ago, nauseus said:

The basic loss, economically, has turned out to be about half a trillion pounds plus a trade deficit with the EU of at least £70 billion per year.

We had a trade deficit before we joined the EU.

Whats your point caller? Were you even at the game?

[CorpusChristie]

6 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Here is the real laugh mate. In a survey last week 49% of Conservative voters said they think Engurland should be independent.

Ask them the same question about Scottish independence and virtually all of them say no.

How does that work?

Oh yeah. English except????ionalism.

And apparently they dont do irony either .

Can you show evidence of when English were asked about Scottish independence and virtually all  of them voted no ? 

  When was this poll and what was the exact result ?

[CorpusChristie]

6 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Here is the real laugh mate. In a survey last week 49% of Conservative voters said they think Engurland should be independent.

Ask them the same question about Scottish independence and virtually all of them say no.

How does that work?

Oh yeah. English except????ionalism.

And apparently they dont do irony either .

Can you show evidence of when English were asked about Scottish independence and virtually all  of them voted no ? 

  When was this poll and what was the exact result ?

[tomacht8]

22 minutes ago, nauseus said:

More flashbacks on the way. Oooh nooo...

Here is one more.

Under Union law, consumers have significant rights that the member states through national legislation must guarantee. This includes, for example, the right to a power connection, but also the right to any To choose electricity provider that offers its services on site.

 

But what do those who do not do with their provider are satisfied? Under Union law, all consumers have Right to an easy, quick change of provider (usually within 3 weeks) without them additional fees will be charged. All electricity providers must have clear contract information deploy them before signing their customers prompt. They must also notify when the contract is changed (e.g. cost increase), and the possibility offer to terminate the contract (and a contract with one close new provider), if a customer is not with the satisfied with new conditions.

 

In addition, the Electricity providers provide accurate and up-to-date consumption information and ensure that the bills meet the correspond to actual consumption. By 2020, at least 80% of all electricity meters in the EU should be replaced by intelligent measuring devices without incurring additional costs for consumers. With intelligent measuring devices, power consumption can be significantly reduced - The electricity bill will be cheaper in the future.

 

Union law also provides for quick, easy resolution of complaints and disputes: you just have to lodge a complaint with your electricity provider. If this does not solve the problem, customers in all Member States have it Right to lodge a complaint with an independent national body. This must then be an inexpensive, prompt and enable fair out-of-court settlement.

[Loiner]

2 hours ago, nauseus said:

Twisting again. You wanted to talk oranges. I didn't.

It started about unnecessary protectionist EU tariffs and cheaper products available from around the world. Unfortunately some Remainers arguments spun off, out of control at a tangerine.  

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

Here is one more.

Under Union law, consumers have significant rights that the member states through national legislation must guarantee. This includes, for example, the right to a power connection, but also the right to any To choose electricity provider that offers its services on site.

 

But what do those who do not do with their provider are satisfied? Under Union law, all consumers have Right to an easy, quick change of provider (usually within 3 weeks) without them additional fees will be charged. All electricity providers must have clear contract information deploy them before signing their customers prompt. They must also notify when the contract is changed (e.g. cost increase), and the possibility offer to terminate the contract (and a contract with one close new provider), if a customer is not with the satisfied with new conditions.

 

In addition, the Electricity providers provide accurate and up-to-date consumption information and ensure that the bills meet the correspond to actual consumption. By 2020, at least 80% of all electricity meters in the EU should be replaced by intelligent measuring devices without incurring additional costs for consumers. With intelligent measuring devices, power consumption can be significantly reduced - The electricity bill will be cheaper in the future.

 

Union law also provides for quick, easy resolution of complaints and disputes: you just have to lodge a complaint with your electricity provider. If this does not solve the problem, customers in all Member States have it Right to lodge a complaint with an independent national body. This must then be an inexpensive, prompt and enable fair out-of-court settlement.

What if a country, lets say Italy for example were hit by a terrible pandemic, lets call it covid-19, would the other 26 nations be obliged to help Italy immediately or would they let Italy go alone without any help, just curious.

[Rookiescot]

15 minutes ago, CorpusChristie said:

Can you show evidence of when English were asked about Scottish independence and virtually all  of them voted no ? 

  When was this poll and what was the exact result ?

So you think people in Engurland want Scottish independence or not?

Anyway here is a link to the poll which shows 49% of Conservative voters in Engurlund want Engurland independence.

 

https://www.yes.cymru/english_independence_poll

[tomacht8]

34 minutes ago, nauseus said:

More flashbacks on the way. Oooh nooo...

Here one more:

Unfortunately, Frost does not want to sign this, prefers to keep his copy rights open.

 

In 2017, over a million people were active in the production and sale of spirits in the EU and spirits worth € 11 billion were exported around the world. The spirits industry is therefore one of the most important areas of the European agricultural and food industry. In the EU, the high quality production of over 240 different spirits is ensured by geographical indications. These include a. "Calvados", "Irish Whiskey" and "Estonian vodka" as well as various types of liqueurs and fruit brandies. These high quality products are protected from counterfeiting by EU quality regulations. The EU always insists on protecting geographical indications in trade negotiations with third countries in order to promote the international sales of authentic European products. The updated EU legal act on spirits (Spirits Ordinance) clarifies the regulations on the production and labeling, defines categories of spirits (e.g. rum, pastis and gin), replaces existing procedures for protecting their geographical indications and a publicly accessible electronic Register of recognized geographical indications created. In addition, the European Parliament's proposal to set maximum sweetener levels across the Union for different categories of spirit was adopted and taken into account in the new regulation. The updated act will apply from spring 2021.

[nauseus]

26 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

We had a trade deficit before we joined the EU.

Whats your point caller? Were you even at the game?

Your are actually wrong but no surprise there. What is your point?

[nauseus]

2 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

Here one more:

Unfortunately, Frost does not want to sign this, prefers to keep his copy rights open.

 

In 2017, over a million people were active in the production and sale of spirits in the EU and spirits worth € 11 billion were exported around the world. The spirits industry is therefore one of the most important areas of the European agricultural and food industry. In the EU, the high quality production of over 240 different spirits is ensured by geographical indications. These include a. "Calvados", "Irish Whiskey" and "Estonian vodka" as well as various types of liqueurs and fruit brandies. These high quality products are protected from counterfeiting by EU quality regulations. The EU always insists on protecting geographical indications in trade negotiations with third countries in order to promote the international sales of authentic European products. The updated EU legal act on spirits (Spirits Ordinance) clarifies the regulations on the production and labeling, defines categories of spirits (e.g. rum, pastis and gin), replaces existing procedures for protecting their geographical indications and a publicly accessible electronic Register of recognized geographical indications created. In addition, the European Parliament's proposal to set maximum sweetener levels across the Union for different categories of spirit was adopted and taken into account in the new regulation. The updated act will apply from spring 2021.

So sweet.

[tomacht8]

5 minutes ago, nauseus said:

So sweet.

So sweet yes:

The Brexit UK would also like to take advantage of this, but they do not want to pay for it.

 

EU citizens are rightly concerned about their security. Terrorists and criminals take advantage of Europe's open borders to enter unnoticed and move within the EU. Therefore, police and border guards need quick access to accurate information. However, the databases currently used in border protection and crime-fighting are fragmented and not user-friendly. They are also not interoperable.

 

The EU has therefore decided to link three existing and three planned information systems in the field of border protection and police work. The aim is to facilitate the exchange of information about people entering the EU at the external borders. The aim is to ensure greater security, more efficiency in border controls and the prevention and fight against irregular migration.

 

A European search portal should enable all EU databases to be searched simultaneously via a single interface. In the future, it will no longer be necessary to check documents in multiple databases. New tools are being developed to compare biometric data such as fingerprints and facial images, to store biographical information on third-country nationals and to check and label persons who use fake or multiple identities.

 

This should make it easier to identify cases of identity fraud. Parliament has been able to secure fundamental rights and data protection guarantees in the negotiations with the Council and the Commission. No new data should be collected and law enforcement officers should not be given additional access rights. The information already available should be used more efficiently. A dedicated online service is to be set up to facilitate the exercise of data protection rights. The system is scheduled to go into operation in 2023.

[Rookiescot]

8 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Your are actually wrong but no surprise there. What is your point?

No I am right but no surprise there.

1975 27.7 29.4 -1.7 49.6%

 

Now it was a far smaller trade deficit than we have today but a deficit it was.

Then Thatcher took over and the whole thing went to hell in a handcart.

[Pattaya46]

1 hour ago, CorpusChristie said:

The difference was 1 million 300 000 votes .

1300000 more voters voted to leave rather than to remain 

And the funny thing is that these 1.3m seniors may be dead now,

and they will never have to suffer from their Brexit choice... 

[tomacht8]

18 minutes ago, nauseus said:

So sweet.

This is not that sweet.

Will the Brexit UK also participate for the benefit of its workers? I have my doubts.

 

Cancer is the leading cause of work-related death in the EU. Millions of workers are exposed to harmful chemical agents that can be carcinogenic (carcinogens) or trigger mutations (mutagens). Carcinogens and mutagens are found in many workplaces in almost all industries.

 

In order to improve the protection of workers, the EU has updated its regulations on exposure to carcinogens and mutagens at work (Directive 2004/37 / EC). The first update of the directive concerned 13 chemical agents. The second revision proposal was submitted in January 2017. It introduced limit values and other measures for eight other carcinogens and mutagens that workers are exposed to or could inhale. The working substances affected include, for example, motor oil and - due to the European Parliament's demands - diesel exhaust.

 

The new rules are estimated to protect more than 15 million potentially vulnerable workers. It also makes it easier for small businesses, especially micro-businesses, to comply with health and safety regulations.

 

The European Parliament and the Council reached agreement on the updated rules in December 2018. The final act came into force on February 20, 2019. All EU member states must implement the revised regulations into national law by February 20, 2021.