Jeffrey Epstein friend Ghislaine Maxwell arrested on sex abuse charges

[Pilotman]

1 minute ago, giddyup said:

Define normal.

if you don't recognise it for yourself mate, I can't describe it to you. It's a quick way to a Court Room if you don't know the boundaries of what is 'normal'. 

[giddyup]

3 minutes ago, Pilotman said:

if you don't recognise it for yourself mate, I can't describe it to you. It's a quick way to a Court Room if you don't know the boundaries of what is 'normal'. 

Every culture has their own definition of what is normal, and it's a constantly changing thing. What the West considers normal would get you killed in some countries. 

Edited July 4, 2020 by giddyup

[Logosone]

3 minutes ago, The Barmbeker said:

Sure!

What is not to love?

Just out of interest: is it a sign of happiness, that many of them are drugged up and drunk out of their eyeballs, every night?

They must be celebrating their happiness really hard...

Some are, most aren't. When they count the money most seem to have no problems.

 

At least you're not arguing they were forced by circumstances to take drugs and drink. Oh wait, you are.

 

No. They do it because they want to. 

 

Hard to believe for the morality apostles, I know. But some men and women like to drink and do drugs.

 

Amazing, isn't it?

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and replies about bar girls in Thailand have been removed. 

[GroveHillWanderer]

23 hours ago, giddyup said:

Where do you get 12 year olds from? Show me proof that he molested 12 year olds.

I'm not sure what you'd consider proof - a lot of what Epstein is accused of remains as allegations since he didn't actually make it to trial but according to court papers filed by the Attorney General for the Virgin Islands, Epstein abused girls as young as 11.

 

Quote

Convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein trafficked girls in the Caribbean as young as 11 years old up until 2018, according to a new lawsuit.

 

The lawsuit filed by US Virgin Islands attorney general Denise George claims that Epstein had brought girls as young as 11 and 12 to his secluded estate there

Jeffrey Epstein abused girls as young as 11 on secluded private island, lawsuit says

 

[giddyup]

1 minute ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

I'm not sure what you'd consider proof - a lot of what Epstein is accused of remains as allegations since he didn't actually make it to trial but according to court papers filed by the Attorney General for the Virgin Islands, Epstein abused girls as young as 11.

 

Jeffrey Epstein abused girls as young as 11 on secluded private island, lawsuit says

 

That's not proof, it's what's alleged.

[Sujo]

12 minutes ago, giddyup said:

That's not proof, it's what's alleged.

Which is what he said.

 

Btw, say you are from australia nd the age of consent is 16. You go to a country where consent is 14. 

 

Althoigh you are legal in that country australia will charge you under australian law and try to.extradite you. I believe its the same for US and UK.

 

So for westerners its best you stick to your own countrys law.

 

No im not commenting on whether it is acceptable.

[Logosone]

10 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

I'm not sure what you'd consider proof - a lot of what Epstein is accused of remains as allegations since he didn't actually make it to trial but according to court papers filed by the Attorney General for the Virgin Islands, Epstein abused girls as young as 11.

 

Jeffrey Epstein abused girls as young as 11 on secluded private island, lawsuit says

 

Well, let's have a good look at the circle of "survivors".

 

Virgina Roberts Giuffre lived with a 65 year old man later convicted for prostitution before meeting Epstein.

 

Virginia Roberts Giuffre was 17 when she started her relationship with Epstein.

 

She serviced Epstein for two years and a half. She was paid, she was given an all expenses paid trip to Chiang Mai to learn massage which she had claimed was her life-long ambition. 

 

While in Chiang Mai she met an Australian whom she had an affair with and they decided to marry.

 

THIRTEEN years later she decides she was a victim and sues Ghislaine Maxwell. She receives a multi-million pound pay out.

 

She regularly gets paid by the media to tell her stories. For example ABC news flew her to New York to stay at the Ritz Carlton. She gets paid for speaking engagements.

 

Virginia Roberts Giuffre is now a multi-millionairess decked out in gold chains (see the Netflix docu).

 

 

[johnpetersen]

3 hours ago, Logosone said:

Some are, most aren't. When they count the money most seem to have no problems.

 

At least you're not arguing they were forced by circumstances to take drugs and drink. Oh wait, you are.

 

No. They do it because they want to. 

 

Hard to believe for the morality apostles, I know. But some men and women like to drink and do drugs.

 

Amazing, isn't it?

And so do some underage teens. That doesn't mean you should be giving them drugs and alcohol.

[Logosone]

17 minutes ago, johnpetersen said:

And so do some underage teens. That doesn't mean you should be giving them drugs and alcohol.

Quite so, and I never do. Nor did Jeffrey Epstein.

 

What the "survivors" did, they did very knowingly, without being drugged and without alcohol.

 

They did it for pure hard cash.

 

They had sex with Epstein for years in some cases. Took up his offers of world wide trips, education. Then 13 years later turned around and sued Ghislaine Maxwell and receive millions.

 

Much like the accusers of Harvey Weinstein will now be in line to receive millions from the assets of the Weinstein companies.

 

The absoutely most astonishing part in the Netflix docu about Epstein was when one of his accusers goes on to claim she was raped, ran away with bloody feet and cried herself to sleep, then resurfaces a few minutes later to say they invited her on a trip to Africa and she agreed to go. And that it was the single most amazing time of her life.

 

If she was so terribly raped, why would she later agree to go on a trip to Africa with the man she claimed raped her?

 

Edited July 4, 2020 by Logosone

[GroveHillWanderer]

18 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Well, let's have a good look at the circle of "survivors".

 

Virgina Roberts Giuffre lived with a 65 year old man later convicted for prostitution before meeting Epstein.

 

Virginia Roberts Giuffre was 17 when she started her relationship with Epstein.

 

She serviced Epstein for two years and a half. She was paid, she was given an all expenses paid trip to Chiang Mai to learn massage which she had claimed was her life-long ambition. 

 

While in Chiang Mai she met an Australian whom she had an affair with and they decided to marry.

 

THIRTEEN years later she decides she was a victim and sues Ghislaine Maxwell. She receives a multi-million pound pay out.

 

She regularly gets paid by the media to tell her stories. For example ABC news flew her to New York to stay at the Ritz Carlton. She gets paid for speaking engagements.

 

Virginia Roberts Giuffre is now a multi-millionairess decked out in gold chains (see the Netflix docu).

 

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here - by his own admission in the plea deal he agreed to in Florida, Epstein was guilty of two offences related to having sex with a 14 year-old girl. Furthermore, as part of that deal (and for reasons known only to themselves) government attorneys in Florida dropped the charges arising from the evidence they had of him committing offences with 36 other girls, some as young as 14, although Epstein did agree to pay restitution to these 3 dozen victims. It's no wonder that the deal he got has been described as the deal of the century.

 

In fact, according to some reports, the reason why the Public Corruption Unit of the SDNY is handling the Ghislaine Maxwell case, is because they're looking into the Florida officials who handled Epstein's 2008 plea deal.

 

Incidentally, the US Attorney General for the Virgin Islands is not one of the "survivors" and she also had sufficient evidence to file a lawsuit against Epstein for offences involving girls as young as 11.

[Logosone]

6 minutes ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here - by his own admission in the plea deal he agreed to in Florida, Epstein was guilty of two offences related to having sex with a 14 year-old girl. Furthermore, as part of that deal (and for reasons known only to themselves) government attorneys in Florida dropped the charges arising from the evidence they had of him committing offences with 36 other girls, some as young as 14, although Epstein did agree to pay restitution to these 3 dozen victims. It's no wonder that the deal he got has been described as the deal of the century.

 

In fact, according to some reports, the reason why the Public Corruption Unit of the SDNY is handling the Ghislaine Maxwell case, is because they're looking into the Florida officials who handled Epstein's 2008 plea deal.

 

Incidentally, the US Attorney General for the Virgin Islands is not one of the "survivors" and she also had sufficient evidence to file a lawsuit against Epstein for offences involving girls as young as 11.

No, those two offences which the plea deal relates to were 1) soliciting a prostitute (nothing to do with underage girls in law) and 2) procuring for prostitution a girl under 18 (procurement is not a charge of "having sex").

 

Obviously there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that Epstein had sex with girls that were 15, 16, 17 and that he tried to have sex with a 14 year old. The evidence is overwhelming. I'm not defending Epstein in the sense that he is not guilty. Quite clearly he was. In law. Of having sex with girls that were not 18 but a few years younger.

 

However, if you look at the "survivors" here is what one such "survivor" Courtney Wild admitted to:

 

"“By the time I was 16, I had probably brought him 70 to 80 girls who were all 14 and 15 years old. He was involved in my life for years,” said Wild, who was released from prison in October after serving three years on drug charges.

 

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article220097825.html

 

So, these "survivors" were all basically complicit. They were all pimps who sold their friends to do what they did, for cash. They were basically underage prostitutes who not just got paid for sex, but procured girls for Epstein.

 

Then you look at Virginia Roberts Giuffre, she stayed with Epstein for 2 and a half years. She got paid, she went on trips to Chiang Mai, got her massage education paid. Then thirteen years later found her victimhood and sued Ghislaine Maxwell and was paid millions and is now a rich woman.

 

Or another survivor who claimed she was raped, but then a few minutes later says she was asked to go on a trip to Africa and agreed to go with the main who supposedly raped her.

 

Of course Epstein was guilty of underage sex. But the supposed "victims" actually made millions and pimped their friends. And despite rapes agreed to go on trips to Africa.

 

So I think weighing up the severity of the crime and what actually happened is important here. When I first heard about this there were stories that Epstein kept sexual slaves and such, but nothing is further from the truth. He got a massage and got sex and those girls were free to leave at any time. They never did in most cases. 

 

 

[Peterhua]

5 hours ago, giddyup said:

Every culture has their own definition of what is normal, and it's a constantly changing thing. What the West considers normal would get you killed in some countries. 

Please tell us what YOU consider normal? 

[GroveHillWanderer]

19 hours ago, Logosone said:

No, those two offences which the plea deal relates to were 1) soliciting a prostitute (nothing to do with underage girls in law) and 2) procuring for prostitution a girl under 18 (procurement is not a charge of "having sex")

That's not correct, at least as far as everything I've read about the plea deal goes. Both charges Epstein plead guilty to (procuring and soliciting) related to the same individual, named at the time in legal documents as Jane Doe, and identified as a 14 year-old girl. As far as I'm aware, the soliciting charge means he encouraged or induced her to commit sexual acts with him.

 

This is as reported by the Miami Herald, NY Times, Canadian site Global News and others:

Quote

Under a 2008 non-prosecution agreement, Epstein pleaded guilty to state charges in Florida of soliciting and procuring a minor for prostitution.

Quote

Mr. Epstein pleaded guilty to state charges of soliciting a minor for prostitution.

Quote

Epstein and his defense team soon signed the federal non-prosecution agreement, which deferred to the state attorney’s office to file the charge of soliciting minors for prostitution. 

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

19 hours ago, Peterhua said:

Please tell us what YOU consider normal? 

I’ve asked him 3 times whether he finds it ok that an old man has paid sex with underage girls. He refuses to do so. Guess why. 

[welovesundaysatspace]

 

20 hours ago, Logosone said:

 

So I think weighing up the severity of the crime and what actually happened is important here.

What do you suggest? 

[Peterhua]

2 hours ago, welovesundaysatspace said:

I’ve asked him 3 times whether he finds it ok that an old man has paid sex with underage girls. He refuses to do so. Guess why. 

No need to guess. On one of his previous comments he reeled off a list of pornography sites where he said child pornography and other sexually deviant porn was available

[The Barmbeker]

What gets me everytime, is the opinion of some, that underaged girls (somewhere between 12 nd 17) are completely "in control" of the narrative by taking money or "enjoying" whatever happened and are therefor clearly in the drivers seat and in control of the fate of some poor adult men, who were just enjoying a nice "massage" from a minor!

Yet these grown up men are - very obviouls- the victims here of the cheating lying 13 year olds!

I really hope, none of you have children, let alone daughters!

 

[johnpetersen]

On 7/4/2020 at 2:17 PM, Logosone said:

Quite so, and I never do. Nor did Jeffrey Epstein.

 

What the "survivors" did, they did very knowingly, without being drugged and without alcohol.

 

They did it for pure hard cash.

 

They had sex with Epstein for years in some cases. Took up his offers of world wide trips, education. Then 13 years later turned around and sued Ghislaine Maxwell and receive millions.

 

Much like the accusers of Harvey Weinstein will now be in line to receive millions from the assets of the Weinstein companies.

 

The absoutely most astonishing part in the Netflix docu about Epstein was when one of his accusers goes on to claim she was raped, ran away with bloody feet and cried herself to sleep, then resurfaces a few minutes later to say they invited her on a trip to Africa and she agreed to go. And that it was the single most amazing time of her life.

 

If she was so terribly raped, why would she later agree to go on a trip to Africa with the man she claimed raped her?

 

It doesn't matter. They were underage kids. By law, Epstein had no right to make them those offers. The law understands that kids have to be protected from themselves.

[ChipButty]

Ghislaine, Is That You? Inside Ghislaine Maxwell’s Life on the Lam

To long a post so grab a coffee or a beer,

https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2020/07/inside-ghislaine-maxwells-life-on-the-lam

[GinBoy2]

On 7/3/2020 at 9:18 PM, Pilotman said:

if you don't recognise it for yourself mate, I can't describe it to you. It's a quick way to a Court Room if you don't know the boundaries of what is 'normal'. 

I've actually been somewhat horrified by this thread, where certain posters seem to be justifying that sex between a middle aged man and any 'kid' less than half their age is normal.

 

What is wrong with these people?

 

Girls 15, 16, 17 are not women, they are children. I don't care what the 'age of consent' is, that is primarily designed to define sex between people of similar age, not some 50 year old slime ball and a 17 year old.

 

Sorry, troll me if you want, but that is just not right. 

[Logosone]

22 hours ago, GroveHillWanderer said:

That's not correct, at least as far as everything I've read about the plea deal goes. Both charges Epstein plead guilty to (procuring and soliciting) related to the same individual, named at the time in legal documents as Jane Doe, and identified as a 14 year-old girl. As far as I'm aware, the soliciting charge means he encouraged or induced her to commit sexual acts with him.

 

This is as reported by the Miami Herald, NY Times, Canadian site Global News and others:

 

You said that Epstein was "guilty" of charges of "having sex" with a minor. That's not correct, because the charges of soliciting and procuring are not charges of actually "having sex" and only one related to a minor. 

 

Epstein pled guilty of soliciting a prostitute and of procuring for prostitution a girl under 18. He was not found guilty of any charge of having sex with minor.

 

Obviously he did do that, the evidence is clearly overwhelming. 

 

Just looking at the actual record he was not convicted of that and did not plead guilty to that.

[Logosone]

14 hours ago, johnpetersen said:

It doesn't matter. They were underage kids. By law, Epstein had no right to make them those offers. The law understands that kids have to be protected from themselves.

Actually not all of Epstein's female sex partners were underage kids. 

 

Many were well over 20. Sarah Ransome for example was 22 when she was introduced to Epstein.

 

Maria Farmer was 26.

 

At the court hearing that was arranged for the victims 23 women attended and five said they were teenagers when they first met Epstein. So five out of 23.

 

"At least five women told the court they were teenagers at the time of their assaults, the youngest 14 years old."

 

https://time.com/5662688/jeffrey-epstein-accusers-court/

 

Many of the teenagers admitted that they procured between 60 to 70 girls for Epstein, including Courtney Wild. She said:

 

" by the time she was 16, she had brought Epstein more than 70 girls, “all ages 14, 15, 16 … people going from eighth grade to ninth grade,” who she recruited at school parties."

 

https://www.thecut.com/2019/07/how-many-jeffrey-epstein-victims-are-there.html

 

Virginia Giuffre Roberts says the same. Haley Robson says the same. Almost every girl listed says the same, that each brought many friends to Epstein.

 

So if as you say "The law understands that kids have to be protected from themselves" it would appear that the law does not understand that kids have to protected from each other.

 

What Epstein did would have been impossible if those girls had not persuaded 60, 70 other girls, each, to come to Epstein. Knowing full well they would be sexually assaulted. And they did so not under any duress but purely for monetary gain.

 

And yet Ghislaine Maxwell will be the only one convicted of procuring girls for Epstein, when almost all the girls themselves are on record of having admitted they procured girls for Epstein.

 

If Ghislaine Maxwell is sent down then Virginia Roberts Giuffre, Courtney Wild, Haley Robson and all the others that  admitted they procured 70 or so girls for Epstein, and not under duress but simply for monetary gain, should also be sent down.

 

Of course Epstein had no right to make those offers. But Giuffre, Wild, Robson et al, to make money themselves, had the right to offer their friends to make money knowing very well those girls would be sexually assaulted?

 

So they can exert sufficient control to procure girls for Epstein but a 17 year old is a 'kid' and thus doesn't know what she's doing when she procures friends for a man who sexually assaulted her? I would put it to you that this "kid" knew exactly what she was doing, not just that, she connivingly and for monetary gain participated in the criminal enterprise to the extent of bringing 70 kids to Epstein. And netting herself 14000 USD in the process.

 

[Sujo]

16 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Actually not all of Epstein's female sex partners were underage kids. 

 

Many were well over 20. Sarah Ransome for example was 22 when she was introduced to Epstein.

 

Maria Farmer was 26.

 

At the court hearing that was arranged for the victims 23 women attended and five said they were teenagers when they first met Epstein. So five out of 23.

 

"At least five women told the court they were teenagers at the time of their assaults, the youngest 14 years old."

 

https://time.com/5662688/jeffrey-epstein-accusers-court/

 

Many of the teenagers admitted that they procured between 60 to 70 girls for Epstein, including Courtney Wild. She said:

 

" by the time she was 16, she had brought Epstein more than 70 girls, “all ages 14, 15, 16 … people going from eighth grade to ninth grade,” who she recruited at school parties."

 

https://www.thecut.com/2019/07/how-many-jeffrey-epstein-victims-are-there.html

 

Virginia Giuffre Roberts says the same. Haley Robson says the same. Almost every girl listed says the same, that each brought many friends to Epstein.

 

So if as you say "The law understands that kids have to be protected from themselves" it would appear that the law does not understand that kids have to protected from each other.

 

What Epstein did would have been impossible if those girls had not persuaded 60, 70 other girls, each, to come to Epstein. Knowing full well they would be sexually assaulted. And they did so not under any duress but purely for monetary gain.

 

And yet Ghislaine Maxwell will be the only one convicted of procuring girls for Epstein, when almost all the girls themselves are on record of having admitted they procured girls for Epstein.

 

If Ghislaine Maxwell is sent down then Virginia Roberts Giuffre, Courtney Wild, Haley Robson and all the others that  admitted they procured 70 or so girls for Epstein, and not under duress but simply for monetary gain, should also be sent down.

 

Of course Epstein had no right to make those offers. But Giuffre, Wild, Robson et al, to make money themselves, had the right to offer their friends to make money knowing very well those girls would be sexually assaulted?

 

So they can exert sufficient control to procure girls for Epstein but a 17 year old is a 'kid' and thus doesn't know what she's doing when she procures friends for a man who sexually assaulted her? I would put it to you that this "kid" knew exactly what she was doing, not just that, she connivingly and for monetary gain participated in the criminal enterprise to the extent of bringing 70 kids to Epstein. And netting herself 14000 USD in the process.

 

Your reasoning astounds me.

 

The kids would not be procuring anyone if they were not asked to do it.

 

I dont care if everyone of them were prostitutes or murderers or anything. They are not to blame. 

 

So enough with the victim blaming.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Sujo

[Logosone]

1 hour ago, Sujo said:

Your reasoning astounds me.

 

The kids would not be procuring anyone if they were not asked to do it.

 

I dont care if everyone of them were prostitutes or murderers or anything. They are not to blame. 

 

So enough with the victim blaming.

Your reasoning astounds me.

 

How are they not to blame, if they brought 70 girls to be sexually assaulted by Epstein?

 

Yes of course they were asked by Epstein, so if you were asked to kill your neighbour that's okay because someone else asked you? What kind of reasoning is this? 

 

These girls are not to blame for bringing 70 girls to be sexually assaulted by Epstein? But Ghislaine Maxwell is?

 

These girls, taken as a whole, brought far more girls to Epstein than Ghislaine Maxwell ever did.

 

They are very much to blame. Without them the whole enterprise would not have been possible.

 

The law actually provides for "victim blaming", things like contributory negligence show that just because you were a victim, in law that does not mean you're absolved of all responsibility.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Logosone

[Don Mega]

1 minute ago, Logosone said:

Your reasoning astounds me.

 

How are they not to blame, if they brought 70 girls to be sexually assaulted by Epstein?

 

Yes of course they were asked by Epstein, so if you were asked to kill your neighbour that's okay because someone else asked you? What kind of reasoning is this? 

 

These girls are not to blame for bringing 70 girls to be sexually assaulted by Epstein? But Ghislaine Maxwell is?

 

These girls, taken as a whole, brought far more girls to Epstein than Ghislaine Maxwell ever did.

 

They are very much to blame. Without them the whole enterprise would not have been possible.

I'll bet they were paid to bring them as well.

 

Pimpin aint easy !!

[Logosone]

5 minutes ago, Don Mega said:

I'll bet they were paid to bring them as well.

 

Pimpin aint easy !!

They were, Epstein paid about 200 or 300 dollars for each girl that another girl persuaded to go to him.

 

That is of course why these girls went to such extraordinary lengths to persuade other girls to see Epstein. They were paid each time. They knew exactly what they were doing. There was no threat to their safety whatsoever. It was purely about monetary gain.

 

Courtney Wild brought 70 girls to Epstein, a good 14000 or 21000 USD, depending what was paid.

 

 

[BritManToo]

1 hour ago, Sujo said:

Your reasoning astounds me.

The kids would not be procuring anyone if they were not asked to do it.

I dont care if everyone of them were prostitutes or murderers or anything. They are not to blame. 

So enough with the victim blaming.

If some 17yo teenage girl lured my teenage daughter into prostitution, I'd want her killed, not rewarded.

Edited July 6, 2020 by BritManToo

[Don Mega]

19 minutes ago, Logosone said:

They were, Epstein paid about 200 or 300 dollars for each girl that another girl persuaded to go to him.

 

That is of course why these girls went to such extraordinary lengths to persuade other girls to see Epstein. They were paid each time. They knew exactly what they were doing. There was no threat to their safety whatsoever. It was purely about monetary gain.

 

Courtney Wild brought 70 girls to Epstein, a good 14000 or 21000 USD, depending what was paid.

 

 

Hopefully they too see a jail cell under the Pandering laws.

Edited July 6, 2020 by Don Mega

[Sujo]

27 minutes ago, Logosone said:

Your reasoning astounds me.

 

How are they not to blame, if they brought 70 girls to be sexually assaulted by Epstein?

 

Yes of course they were asked by Epstein, so if you were asked to kill your neighbour that's okay because someone else asked you? What kind of reasoning is this? 

 

These girls are not to blame for bringing 70 girls to be sexually assaulted by Epstein? But Ghislaine Maxwell is?

 

These girls, taken as a whole, brought far more girls to Epstein than Ghislaine Maxwell ever did.

 

They are very much to blame. Without them the whole enterprise would not have been possible.

 

The law actually provides for "victim blaming", things like contributory negligence show that just because you were a victim, in law that does not mean you're absolved of all responsibility.

I will type this slowly.

 

any girls not of age are not to blame. The person telling them to do it are to blame. without epstein and maxwell they would have nowhere to bring them.

 

For contributory negligence the girls have to be charged then assert the negligence to maxwell. The girls have not been charged so there is no contributory negligence to assert for blame.

 

Now as for victim blaming. It is repulsive to blame any underage girl for these offences when they did so at the instruction of the adult. Which is why they are not charged.

 

There are only 2 people to blame, so far, and one is dead.