Pompeo calls Hong Kong law an 'affront to all nations'

[GinBoy2]

12 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

You're "outraged". Alright. Now, about that recent Chinese move regarding HK...?

There are many on TVF who can't seem to detach their dislike of the US from the actual facts on the ground.

 

Yes, you may not like the US, but that doesn't detract from whats happening in HK.

 

The Joint Declaration is basically shredded. I watched several interviews with HK pro democracy activists who say they are now deleting social media posts, text messages for fear of imprisonment for subversion.

 

Now hate the US as much as you like, and course you are free to say that, but think of an HK resident who now isn't free to criticize Beijing for fear of being imprisoned for life.

 

And remember the law extends to persons living overseas, so essentially they can never return to their home.

 

Yes the US may well be evil in many respects, but this is a whole totalitarian other level

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2020 by GinBoy2

[DB58]

7 hours ago, billd766 said:

Not really. Nowadays the USA seems ready to poke its collective nose into every other countries business without asking or thinking through any responses, before offering a response.

 

IMHO under Trump and Pompeo the USA is losing friends and allies world wide and it seems to be driving itself into isolation from the rest of the world.

 

After Trump departs the scene, it will take the new (and hopefully responsible) years and decades if ever, from the damage Trump has brought upon the USA.

So the USA is in the wrong for revoking favored trade status and denouncing China? 

[Isaan sailor]

3 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

There are many on TVF who can't seem to detach their dislike of the US from the actual facts on the ground.

 

Yes, you may not like the US, but that doesn't detract from whats happening in HK.

 

The Joint Declaration is basically shredded. I watched several interviews with HK pro democracy activists who say they are now deleting social media posts, text messages for fear of imprisonment for subversion.

 

Now hate the US as much as you like, and course you are free to say that, but think of an HK resident who now isn't free to criticize Beijing!

 

 

Right on target.  The haters don’t realize they play right into CCP’s hands.  And instead of holding CCP to task on HK, on Mekong depletion, on South China Sea and Spratly Islands, and the Belt & Road financial trap—it always degenerates to their despise of the current administration.  Look at the big picture, folks.

[GreasyFingers]

41 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

Now hate the US as much as you like

This is where your paranoia is getting to you. Very few people hate America, apart from the arabs and their ilk. The hate comes from the Americans in power who hate the Chinese, the Iranians, the Afganis, Syrians, Iraqs, need I go on.

 We have grown up with America and seen it change and yes we do dislike the hypocrisy and BS of people like Pompeo so do not get dislike of that confused with hate. Keep that to yourself and the other paranoids who need to hate someone or anything.

[GinBoy2]

6 minutes ago, GreasyFingers said:

This is where your paranoia is getting to you. Very few people hate America, apart from the arabs and their ilk. The hate comes from the Americans in power who hate the Chinese, the Iranians, the Afganis, Syrians, Iraqs, need I go on.

 We have grown up with America and seen it change and yes we do dislike the hypocrisy and BS of people like Pompeo so do not get dislike of that confused with hate. Keep that to yourself and the other paranoids who need to hate someone or anything.

Do you actually read some of the vitriol and bile spewed on here about the US?

 

I'm in no way defending a lot of what is done by my Government, but for many they can't see past what they dislike about the US to actually condemn the real crimes of the CCP

[tomacht8]

China can play its power games only because Trump has lost many of his allies through his disgusting way of playing the superman. The United States is more isolated than ever in foreign policy.

Many countries together could show China the borders. The US single-handedly with a dull Trump: impossible. 

Many US allies hope for a new US president/government, with whom you can work reliably in the long term together.

[Morch]

15 minutes ago, Damual Travesty said:

You are correct and there are MANY globally who work in the interest of the CCP. Posting all around the world all the time 24/7. And I never thought I would live to see the day that the Democrat party of the USA would openly support violent organizations engaged in full scale terror against the foundations of the USA. Happening right now as we speak. It is what is is - they are who they are! If they do not fly the stars and stripes in the USA and want to tear it down - they are on the opposite team.

 

Kindly do not use my post as a platform for your anti-Democrat agenda. Making any topic about Trump, and whomever doesn't agree with him is bogus. Then again, with regard to posters spreading the propaganda and creed which they subscribe to - pot, kettle, black.

[Damual Travesty]

3 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

So tell me which countries are currently supporting Trump in his "Stop China" roar.

Specifically. Which countries have issued restrictive measures against China in this context?

Australia for one. UK for two. How many more do you need? Read the news man!

[tomacht8]

6 minutes ago, Damual Travesty said:

Australia for one. UK for two. How many more do you need? Read the news man!

Yes. and India is angry too. but clearly agreed measures among allies? zero and nothing. Everyone is just barking, but nothing specific.

 

Let's wait and see if there is an agreement in the trade dispute, Trump will explain then, that the Chinese government are very fine people. tremendously great people

[Bkk Brian]

19 minutes ago, tomacht8 said:

So tell me which countries are currently supporting Trump in his "Stop China" roar.

Specifically. Which countries have issued restrictive measures against China in this context?

Measures will come, The European Union has said there will be serious consequences

[dimitriv]

3 hours ago, GreasyFingers said:

Forget about American crimes, forget about American genocide. Forget about Guantamano Bay

 

Can you tell me about genocide in the US?

 

In China they try to exterminate entire populations, put people in concentration camps and there is even mandatory sterilization.

 

You cannot compare the US with China, and you cannot compare Guantamano Bay with the Chinese concentration camps.

 

Unless of course you are paid by China to sow confusion.

 

 

[dimitriv]

2 minutes ago, Traubert said:

Take organ harvesting

 

The millions of people in concentration camps, genocide, compulsory sterilization, absolute lack of any freedom of speech, contempt for international legal order, threats to neighboring countries etc etc are all real.

 

 

[darksidedog]

Some off topic rabid trolling posts with wild accusations and zero evidence to back up one jot of it and replies have been removed.

[Tug]

4 hours ago, Isaan sailor said:

Right on target.  The haters don’t realize they play right into CCP’s hands.  And instead of holding CCP to task on HK, on Mekong depletion, on South China Sea and Spratly Islands, and the Belt & Road financial trap—it always degenerates to their despise of the current administration.  Look at the big picture, folks.

I see the old safe spot (haters) when not agreeing with trump .to me (I do hate trump)the United States is in full retreat on all fronts foreign and domestic idealisticy and morally under trump trump has done squat about the spratlys or the South China Sea look at the facts and truth take the blinders off don’t be a mark

[DrTuner]

HK is lost, won't be long before commies take over of all existing laws and truly annex it to CCP. Obviously if you're from the west and have some dealings there, get out now. It's doomed.

[tomacht8]

2 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Measures will come, The European Union has said there will be serious consequences

Yes. Is a Statement.

But due to the many irritations caused by the Trump administration:

 

- G7 Summit in Canada. And insult to the Canadian PM.

- The dirty mexican.

- The <deleted> hole countries in Africa.

- The Nato summit with unsustainable accusations.

- The exit from the Paris Agreement.

- The exit from the Iran nuclear deal.

- The WTO attack: useless organization.

- The WHO funds cuts.

- The EU trade war.

- The glorification of north korea kim.

(I love him)

and much much more.

 

there will be no joint action on the international stage.

And china knows that.

[GinBoy2]

4 hours ago, Bkk Brian said:

Measures will come, The European Union has said there will be serious consequences

Hmm, I'd like to think even if the EU would actually do something along with the rest of the Western world, although I think those 'serious consequences' will be a very severe 'telling off' it'll amount to nothing.

 

Sanctions rarely manage to achieve anything. Cuba, Iran, North Korea the list goes on.

 

In point of fact the only two places in my lifetime where external sanctions actually did ultimately make a difference were South Africa & Rhodesia, and that was coupled with  internal majority dissent.

 

I've said before all we can do is give Hong Kongers an out. The UK has made a great gesture to finally give BNO's full residency, several bipartisan bills are current in the US congress to give people special refugee status, and Taiwan is essentially saying, show up and you get a RoC passport.

 

It's an awful place we find ourselves in, but we all let China get away with it and now they are probably too powerful to reign in!

[tonbridgebrit]

10 hours ago, Morch said:

 

You're "outraged". Alright. Now, about that recent Chinese move regarding HK...?

Okay, about China's move regarding Hong Kong.
 

Let's look at the overall picture.  Last year, for months and months, Hong Kong was brought to a standstill by the demonsrtrations, and a load of people threw petrol bombs and bricks at the Hong Kong police. Anybody can actually criticise Beijing for allowing the riots to continue over such a long period. As in, Beijing should have clamped down on the violence in a bigger way, and sooner.

Notice the hypocrisy of some of the anti-China brigade.  As in, in the USA, BLM do mass protests, and when bricks and petrol bombs are thrown, well, people demand serious action from the US government. But in Hong Kong, rioters throw bricks and petrol bombs, and when riot police arrest a few of them, well, that's called 'police brutality' .  How many bricks and petrol bombs have been thrown in America ?  How many bricks and petrol bombs did Hong Kong police have thrown at them ? A lot more than in the USA.

So, Beijing clamping down on the rioters/demonstraters is not actually surprising. By the way, the Hong Kong riots have been  far less energetic in 2020, compared to 2019. Why is that ? Well, yes, the Covid bug has caused a lot of Hong Kong people to not take part. But there is speculation regarding another reason. The Hong Kong guys you see wearing metal helmets, and throwing bricks and petrol bombs, they're (supposedly) mainly a bunch of 'paid for' rioters. And basically, their wages have not been paid in the last few months. That's why they've mainly stopped their rioting.

Let's look at the overall picture. Hong Kong's economy is basically dependent on mainland China. Surely, we all know this ?  As in, goods are made in China, Hong Kong companies import/buy those goods and then re-export/re-route the goods to America and the rest of the world. Hong Kong also imports goods from the rest of the world, and re-exports/re-routes the goods to mainland China. It's best for Hong Kong that they simply stop these riots and demonstrations. And that's bearing in mind that the riots where mainly done by the 'paid for' rioters.

Edited July 3, 2020 by tonbridgebrit

[tonbridgebrit]

9 hours ago, Isaan sailor said:

Right on target.  The haters don’t realize they play right into CCP’s hands.  And instead of holding CCP to task on HK, on Mekong depletion, on South China Sea and Spratly Islands, and the Belt & Road financial trap—it always degenerates to their despise of the current administration.  Look at the big picture, folks.

You're raising the issue of the Spratly Islands. Well, the case of the Paracel Islands is the same.

Now, you guys do realise what's actually happening ? Okay, it's this. China claims ownership of the islands, and Vietnam also claims ownership, and Philipinnes also claims some of the islands.

Now, the important thing is, where does Washington (as in, the US government) stand on this ?  Washington is staying neutral on this. As in, the US government is NOT saying "we're supporting Vietnam's claim on the islands" .  And the US government is also NOT saying "we back China's claim, on ownership of the islands" .
Why is the USA staying neutral with regards to who owns the islands ? It's because, America knows that China's claims are just as reasonable as Vietnam's claims. And that's bearing in mind that islands like the Falklands and Diego Garcia are owned by nations that are very far away from the islands.

[grumpy 4680]

        The sooner the WORLD gets out of China the better, might be expensive  for some, but better without Chinese anywhere in the world. if America cut all trade with China, the rest might follow.

[grumpy 4680]

5 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

And that's bearing in mind that the riots where mainly done by the 'paid for' rioters.

     Rubbish, if you were from Hong Kong, you would feel the same way they do, They were granted a 50 year period as a seperate state, The miserable lying two faced Chinese, have broken that agreement, as with all their other commitments regyardless from world opinions. The rest of the world could crash the Chinese economy, and send them back to the dark ages, as they deserve.

[Morch]

 

@tonbridgebrit

 

Your reply could be summed thus:

 

1 deflection attempt of a post.

3 unsupported allegations protestors were paid.

6(!) "petrol bombs and bricks" mentions, a ratio bearing little on actual level of violence.

4 irrelevant repeats regarding "goods".

 

You're overdoing it.

 

None of this directly relates to the implications and significance of the PRC's move.

[Morch]

5 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

You're raising the issue of the Spratly Islands. Well, the case of the Paracel Islands is the same.

Now, you guys do realise what's actually happening ? Okay, it's this. China claims ownership of the islands, and Vietnam also claims ownership, and Philipinnes also claims some of the islands.

Now, the important thing is, where does Washington (as in, the US government) stand on this ?  Washington is staying neutral on this. As in, the US government is NOT saying "we're supporting Vietnam's claim on the islands" .  And the US government is also NOT saying "we back China's claim, on ownership of the islands" .
Why is the USA staying neutral with regards to who owns the islands ? It's because, America knows that China's claims are just as reasonable as Vietnam's claims. And that's bearing in mind that islands like the Falklands and Diego Garcia are owned by nations that are very far away from the islands.

 

The "important thing", apparently, is to quickly deflect the discussion from the PRC to anything else, such as views on USA policy back up by nothing whatsoever.

[ncc1701d]

Genuine question - and Whilst I agree China needs to be seriously kept in check - most countries have similar laws don’t they? If you try and do any of the things listed in the “new” law against the USA for example, you’ll be arrested all the same won’t you?

[billd766]

15 hours ago, DB58 said:

So the USA is in the wrong for revoking favored trade status and denouncing China? 

Did you understand what I wrote?

 

It was nothing to do with revoking favored trade status at all? What I wrote was this.

 

22 hours ago, billd766 said:

Not really. Nowadays the USA seems ready to poke its collective nose into every other countries business without asking or thinking through any responses, before offering a response.

 

IMHO under Trump and Pompeo the USA is losing friends and allies world wide and it seems to be driving itself into isolation from the rest of the world.

 

After Trump departs the scene, it will take the new (and hopefully responsible) years and decades if ever, from the damage Trump has brought upon the USA.

 

I tried to explain that the USA under Trump and his administration run by Pompeo still think that they are the leaders of the world and that every country must jump at their command,

 

Several decades ago that may have been correct but certainly since Trump has been POTUS the USA's influence has been waning quicker than an ice cream left in the hot sun.

 

He has lost allies the he needs, he has lost friendly countries who could help the USA in times of need who could have allowed overflights and bases that the USAF used to use.

 

The USA is now attempting to seize  4 Iranian oil tankers bound for Venezuela because they are breaking sanctions that the USA deem s illegal. Neither Iran nor Venezuela are anything to do with the USA but the USA wants to have Venezuela's oil reserves for the USA ONLY. 

 

The USA and to a lesser extent, the UK have been interfering in Iran since WW2 and before, and for what reason? It is not, nor has it ever been a part of the USA, nor has Venezuela. 

[Morch]

1 minute ago, ncc1701d said:

Genuine question - and Whilst I agree China needs to be seriously kept in check - most countries have similar laws don’t they? If you try and do any of the things listed in the “new” law against the USA for example, you’ll be arrested all the same won’t you?

 

I don't know about "most countries". Quite a lot of dodgy regimes out there. But if referring to Western or not obviously dictatorial regimes, then no. Such extensive rules, including suppression of criticism, dissent and right to protest aren't the norm. Add to that the PRC's heavy-handed record of dealing with "violators" to make the picture complete.

 

 

[ncc1701d]

6 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

I don't know about "most countries". Quite a lot of dodgy regimes out there. But if referring to Western or not obviously dictatorial regimes, then no. Such extensive rules, including suppression of criticism, dissent and right to protest aren't the norm. Add to that the PRC's heavy-handed record of dealing with "violators" to make the picture complete.

 

 

From Wikipedia, The law simply states: It states that Hong Kong "shall enact laws on its own to prohibit any act of treason, secession, sedition, subversion against the Central People's Government, or theft of state secrets, to prohibit foreign political organizations or bodies from conducting political activities in the Region, and to prohibit political organizations or bodies of the Region from establishing ties with foreign political organizations or bodies."

 

so if a state within the USA or Australia wanted to do the same or there were protests to do the same - they wouldn’t be breaking the law?

 

I’m not for one second saying that how this law is implemented is not going to be abused. But the catalyst for the recent protest movement kicked off because of China wanting an extradition treaty for someone that had committed murder and fled. Even the USA has an extradition treaty with China! Now because of the frankly ridiculous protests China has upped the ante to this all encompassing law.

 

i live and work in Hong Kong for the last 29 years. I hate to see what has been happening. But at the local level, the protestors are delusional if they think they are somehow going to stop China doing whatever it wants. On an international level, it seems a weird way to go about keeping China from abusing their power internationally. 

[metisdead]

An off topic post has been removed. 

[Brigand]

Due to Trump's shortcomings and errors, he will probably be voted out the next time round but you can't compare him to the Chinese leader and he certainly won't be voted out anything soon. It is only the double standards of the western leaders and the greed of business that allows this awful regime to prosper and perpetuate itself despite the most outrageous infractions of all that is right and acceptable. 

Edited July 4, 2020 by Brigand

[metisdead]

A post with some off topic deflection comments about California and the replies have been removed.