Are ATMs not ripping people off anymore like long time ago?

[Sojuncoke]

I just pulled out using my USA TDameritrade debit card recently and saw that it only charged for 400 baht to take out 20,000 (ATM 200 baht fee and exchange rate). I also tried it previously with 12,000 baht and it only charged me 200. This is actually on par or less fees than using transferwise. Am I missing something?

 

I remember long time ago, they used to trick people into using the thai banks conversion rate and the fees and rates were A LOT higher. 

 

Did this change? And is it now on par with using transferwise? 

Edited July 3, 2020 by Sojuncoke

[Eindhoven]

ATM has nothing to do with it. ATM has no effect on the exchange rate you receive(unless you choose the option of letting them convert for you).

ATM makes one charge of 200 to 220 baht). The rest is charged by your bank.

 

For those whose bank does not charge, they pay only the ATM fee. Some people avoid even the ATM fee by taking a cash advance over a bank counter.

[Sojuncoke]

2 minutes ago, Eindhoven said:

ATM has nothing to do with it. ATM has no effect on the exchange rate you receive(unless you choose the option of letting them convert for you).

ATM makes one charge of 200 to 220 baht). The rest is charged by your bank.

 

For those whose bank does not charge, they pay only the ATM fee. Some people avoid even the ATM fee by taking a cash advance over a bank counter.

 

Ok either way I always saw that using ATM was a lot more expensive a few years back but now its actually cheaper than using transferwise. So then why would anyone use transferwise? 

[dddave]

Look for AEON ATM's, B150 international ATM withdrawal charge. They are usually close to Max Value supermarkets or mini-markets.  Also in some shopping malls.

[Eindhoven]

2 minutes ago, Sojuncoke said:

 

Ok either way I always saw that using ATM was a lot more expensive a few years back but now its actually cheaper than using transferwise. So then why would anyone use transferwise? 

 

ATM was exactly the same a few years back or even cheaper. You were just using the wrong ATM and perhaps the wrong card in the ATM.

 

Some people have cards that charge forex fees, so Transferwise may be better for them.

I have cards that waive all forex fees that I can use for cash advances over the counter. So I pay no fees at all. The full Mastercard and VISA rates with no deductions. Not even ATM fees.

 

 

[Pib]

 

Quote

 

I just pulled out using my USA TDameritrade debit card recently and saw that it only charged for 400 baht to take out 20,000 (ATM 200 baht fee and exchange rate). I also tried it previously with 12,000 baht and it only charged me 200. This is actually on par or less fees than using transferwise. Am I missing something?

 

I remember long time ago, they used to trick people into using the thai banks conversion rate and the fees and rates were A LOT higher. 

 

Did this change? And is it now on par with using transferwise? 

 

OP, it sounds like your TDAmeritratde debit card applies a 1% foreign transaction fee as 1% of 20K is Bt200....then with the Bt200 Thai bank ATM fee that equals Bt400 as you said.   But if you meant you lost Bt200 due to exchange rate you need to explain how you got that figure....what reference exchange rate did you use?

 

Thai banks (as well as many banks in other countries) "might" offer you a Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC) transaction where you are offered the Thai bank's rate which is several percent lower/worst than the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate.  The ATM will probably not say DCC anywhere...it will just show you a rate, make it sound like ice cream & pie, and ask if your want to do the conversion/exchange using that rate--ALWAYS SAY NO to that offer since the rate is lower.  Read the screen wording closely and make whatever selection that does not accept the conversion...instead continue on and get the Visa/Mastercard rate which will not be shown.  You will see the Visa/Mastercard rate when it hits your bank acct and you can look it up at the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate webpages.  Be sure to take into acct any ATM fees and foreign transaction fee which may be broken out separately or just lumped into the amount you withdrew.

 

"If" you have a debit card that reimburses ATM fees (i.e, the Thai bank approx Bt220 fee) and does not charge a foreign transaction fee use of your debit card will be a better deal than using Transferwise when both exchange rate and fees are calculated in...plus, you get your money immediately in hand.   I don't think your US TDAmeritade card reimburses foreign ATM fees with the possible exception of Canada. 

 

No change from years past....Thai banks still have the approx Bt220 foreign card ATM Use fee...."some" ATMs will offer "some" foreign cards a DCC offer....assuming you do not accept any DCC offer you will get the Visa/Mastercard exchange rate minus any ATM Use fee and foreign transaction fee which may be broken out separately or lumped into the withdrawal amount.....varies from bank to bank as to how they handle the accounting/display on your account.

 

 

 

[Pib]

38 minutes ago, dddave said:

Look for AEON ATM's, B150 international ATM withdrawal charge. They are usually close to Max Value supermarkets or mini-markets.  Also in some shopping malls.

A possible downside to AEON ATMs is they are limited to Bt20K per withdrawal unless something has changed....years back you could get Bt30K per withdrawal but that changed....got lowered to Bt20K unless something has changed as I mentioned.  So, if you needed more than Bt20K like say Bt30K and your card-issuing bank allowed that much per day/transaction then you would need to do two withdrawals at an AEON ATM resulting in the Bt150 times 2 = Bt300.  

 

But at some Thai bank ATMs like Krungsri and TMB they allow Bt30K per withdrawal and their ATM fee is Bt220.

[lopburi3]

Remember the exchange rate using Transferwise is better than that using a card - and there is no atm fee or foreign usage fee involved.  For 20k today Transferwise would cost US $653 (inc fees)

31.0750 Transferwise exchange rate

30.970031 Visa exchange rate

Edited July 3, 2020 by lopburi3

[drbeach]

For this reason, I have been transferring funds via Western Union ($0 transfer fee) to one of my Thai bank accounts for years. I rarely if ever withdraw funds directly from my overseas bank accounts here or in neighboring countries like Laos, Cambodia, Vietnam and Myanmar, where similar ATM user surcharges apply.

 

In rare cases where I have been stuck with insufficient funds on my Thai account, I have made "emergency" withdrawals from my overseas accounts, but I try to avoid this whenever possible.

 

Another advantage of using a Thai bank ATM or debit card abroad is that they only charge 100 Baht for the withdrawal, and no percentage fees. All the banks I am with in Australia charge 3% of the amount withdrawn, and even back in the day when I had a Swiss bank account they charged 1.5% (I think it's 2 or even 3% now).

 

Therefore, making an ATM withdrawal in Myanmar from a Thai bank account, you pay 5,000-6,500 Kyat for the ATM user fee (similar to Thailand) plus 100 Baht is deducted per withdrawal. For a large transaction, this isn't too bad. Whereas from an Australian or European bank account with like a 3% surcharge, it's a killer.

Edited July 3, 2020 by drbeach

[Pib]

30 minutes ago, lopburi3 said:

Remember the exchange rate using Transferwise is better than that using a card - and there is no atm fee or foreign usage fee involved.  For 20k today Transferwise would cost US $653 (inc fees)

31.0750 Transferwise exchange rate

30.970031 Visa exchange rate

Using above info if a person has debit card that does not charge a foreign transaction fee and also reimburses ATM fees....like the Schwab debit card....the final cost of Bt20K would have been $645.78...and you have the money in your hand immediately.

[taotoo]

I used a Bangkok Bank ATM recently - it charged the 220 baht fee, but didn't offer a choice of FX rates. Should I assume it charged me the DCC rate, only without asking?

[lopburi3]

4 minutes ago, Pib said:

Using above info if a person has debit card that does not charge a foreign transaction fee and also reimburses ATM fees....like the Schwab debit card....the final cost of Bt20K would have been $645.78...and you have the money in your hand immediately.

Not saying Transferwise will be better - just that for most people will not be much worse - and for some will be better - very few people have no fee and ATM reimbursement.  But for most of us living here full time such transfers are a good option and kind of needed with new extension rules for some of us.  

[KhunBENQ]

1 hour ago, Sojuncoke said:

but now its actually cheaper than using transferwise. So then why would anyone use transferwise?

Exact numbers with date/time (Baht received, foreign account debited).

I doubt it.

And do the math for "reasonable" sums like the 65k minimun per month required by immigration.

Edited July 3, 2020 by KhunBENQ

[treetops]

2 minutes ago, taotoo said:

I used a Bangkok Bank ATM recently - it charged the 220 baht fee, but didn't offer a choice of FX rates. Should I assume it charged me the DCC rate, only without asking?

No, unless they're trying to pull a fast one.  Mastercard "rules" are that you must be offered the opportunity to pay in the local currency.  If you aren't you should be able to reclaim any losses.  I can't see any bank imposing it as you describe.

[KhunBENQ]

Best case for a VISA Euro withdraw.

Select 30000 Baht.

Be debited 30220 Thai Baht = 869.60 Euro assuming no fee by your bank!.

 

Transferwise

869 Euro gives you 30119.71 Baht for cheap transfer option.

 

So even with best case ATM transaction, TW will still give a bit more.

More realistic are added fees of 1.5% to 3% by the foreign banks.

 

https://www.visa.co.uk/support/consumer/travel-support/exchange-rate-calculator.html

https://transferwise.com/

Edited July 3, 2020 by KhunBENQ

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

27 minutes ago, taotoo said:

I used a Bangkok Bank ATM recently - it charged the 220 baht fee, but didn't offer a choice of FX rates. Should I assume it charged me the DCC rate, only without asking?

 

The only way you'll get a DCC rate from an ATM is if the ATM asks you if you want the withdrawal denominated/shown in the amount of your bank's cards home currency (instead of Thai baht), and you agree to that....

 

What you see on the ATM screen never says anything about the term DCC or the fact that they're offering you a pi*ss poor exchange rate. It just asks if you want to see the amount shown in your home country/bank card currency, and too many people unknowingly click YES to that.

 

The DCC offer at some Thai banking company ATMs seems to be more common with MC logo cards, and not so much with VISA logo cards. 

 

Here's an example of a DCC offer I saw, and declined, when making a store purchase in BKK recently.  5.9% "commission" or "margin" to have my receipt show me what the price would be in USD vs Thai baht.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2020 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Pib]

9 minutes ago, taotoo said:

I used a Bangkok Bank ATM recently - it charged the 220 baht fee, but didn't offer a choice of FX rates. Should I assume it charged me the DCC rate, only without asking?

No.  Unless you saw a screen showing you a specific rate and asking you to accept, you were not offered a DCC transaction.  You got the card-network (i.e., Visa/Mastercard/AmEx/UnionPay/etc) minus any foreign transaction fee your "card-issuing" bank may apply.

 

With my various US Visa and Mastercard debit cards I have never been offered a DCC transaction at any Thai ATM.  But there are no shortage of Thaivisa posts over years from folks who have been offered DCC...and it appears many are European-bank issued Maestro/Mastercard cards get offered DCC often.  It depends on who/where your card was issued from as to if the ATM will attempt a DCC transaction. 

 

But can an ATM offer you a DCC transaction when you insert your Visa or Mastercard card?  The answer is "yes it could."  Be on the lookup....watch the ATM screens and what they ask/display....be sure not to accept any DCC offer and the transaction will continue on with the higher card-network exchange rate.

 

Nothing illegal about an ATM offering an DCC transaction; it's just the ATM needs to give you the option to accept or decline the offer in accordance with Visa/Mastercard policies.  The offers are often vague/confusing to many using wording geared to get the person to accept the offer.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

3 minutes ago, Pib said:

With my various US Visa and Mastercard debit cards I have never been offered a DCC transaction at any Thai ATM.  But there are no shortage of Thaivisa posts over years from folks who have been offered DCC...and it appears many are European-bank issued Maestro/Mastercard cards get offered DCC often. 

 

I get them (DCC prompts) when I use my U.S. MC debit card at both BKKB and Krungsri ATMs, as best as I recall.

 

[Stadtler]

2 hours ago, Sojuncoke said:

This is actually on par or less fees than using transferwise. Am I missing something?

Stadtler also has accounts at TD. Wait until you see the 3 percent fee for international processing that will be tacked onto your transaction.  Stadtler's other bank charges 1 percent.  Stadtler asked TD what they do for the extra 2 percent but to date, Stadtler has not received a response. 

 

The charge will show up on your bank statement, not the ATM transaction.

 

Surprise Surprise ...

Edited July 3, 2020 by Stadtler

[Pib]

9 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

The only way you'll get a DCC rate from an ATM is if the ATM asks you if you want the withdrawal denominated/shown in the amount of your bank's cards home currency (instead of Thai baht), and you agree to that....

 

The DCC offer at some Thai banking company ATMs seems to be more common with MC logo cards, and not so much with VISA logo cards. 

 

Here's an example of a DCC offer I saw, and declined, when making a store purchase in BKK recently.  5.9% "commission" or "margin" to have my receipt show me what the price would be in USD vs Thai baht.

 

 

 

 

Wow.....5.9% margin....or put in layman's terms a 5.9% lower exchange rate....5.9% more profit for the merchant.  What I've typically experienced is around 2.75-3%. 

 

And when I say "experienced" I don't mean I accepted the transaction....when the checkout cashier handed me the receipt for signature and I see "both" Thai baht and USD displayed on the receipt I immediately knew it was a DCC transaction.

 

I then told the clerk to cancel that transaction (i.e., I ain't going to sign) and rerun in Thai baht; not USD.  Typically it takes the clerk about 2 minutes to cancel and rerun the transaction based on personal experience although I know some ThaiVisa posters over the years have run into merchants that want to make it hard.   An attempted DCC purchase happens to me a couple times each year although I always tell the cashier to charge in Thai baht; not US dollars, but sometimes it doesn't registered with their brain.   

Preaching to the choir I know.

 

Edited July 3, 2020 by Pib

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

4 minutes ago, Pib said:

Wow.....5.9% margin....or put in layman's terms a 5.9% lower exchange rate....5.9% more profit for the merchant.  What I've typically experienced is around 2.75-3%. 

 

I was shocked when I saw that recently as well. That's why I saved a photo of the receipt. I think Central just recently went to a new card processing vendor with Kasikorn, and somehow the 5.9% fee has emerged from that.

 

I guess I need to keep an eye out and see if other TH banks now have gone to that same kind of DCC rate in POS transactions.  (I have no idea if that same rate is or isn't being applied these days for ATM DCC transactions).

 

[WineOh]

Even the ATMs are scammin folk now..

wonder if they do 2 for 1 on thousand baht notes ????

 

dont tell anyone you been scammed on here though, they will say it’s your fault 

 

Edited July 3, 2020 by Liverpoolfan

[Eindhoven]

13 minutes ago, KhunBENQ said:

Best case for a VISA Euro withdraw.

Select 30000 Baht.

Be debited 30220 Thai Baht = 869.60 Euro assuming no fee by your bank!.

 

Transferwise

869 Euro gives you 30119.71 Baht for cheap transfer option.

 

So even with best case ATM transaction, TW will still give a bit more.

More realistic are added fees of 1.5% to 3% by the foreign banks.

 

https://www.visa.co.uk/support/consumer/travel-support/exchange-rate-calculator.html

https://transferwise.com/

 

30000 baht withdrawn over the counter with a Mastercard yesterday would have cost me the equivalent of 862.33 Euro.

TW is useful in it's own right, but not for me.

 

[Pib]

3 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

I was shocked when I saw that recently as well. That's why I saved a photo of the receipt. I think Central just recently went to a new card processing vendor with Kasikorn, and somehow the 5.9% fee has emerged from that.

 

I guess I need to keep an eye out and see if other TH banks now have gone to that same kind of DCC rate in POS transactions.  (I have no idea if that same rate is or isn't being applied these days for ATM DCC transactions).

 

And once again to preaching to the choir....just for other listening in....some card-issuing banks who have foreign transaction fees on the cards....let's say for discussion 3%....might still apply that 3% fee which is more salt in the wound. 

 

They apply the 3% fee not because the exchange involved foreign currency but simply because it was a foreign transaction in any currency....THB, USD, EUR, etc.   Only the most fee-evil banks apply the fee in this way.  And unless something has changed, for those Bank of America credit/debit cards which have a foreign transaction fee (some do, some don't) that's how BoA applies the fee....applies it regardless of currency involved. 

 

The less fee-evil banks will not charge the foreign transaction if the ATM/merchant accomplished the exchange to USD on the ATM/merchant end versus letting Visa/Mastercard do it.

[Stadtler]

13 minutes ago, Pib said:

Wow.....5.9% margin....or put in layman's terms a 5.9% lower exchange rate....5.9% more profit for the merchant.  What I've typically experienced is around 2.75-3%. 

The exchange rate at Bangkok Bank is just shy of 31 Baht for One Dollar.  Where is the 5.9 percent? 31 Baht minus 29 gives a difference of roughly 2 Baht.

[Stadtler]

1 minute ago, Pib said:

And once again to preaching to the choir....just for other listening in....some card-issuing banks who have foreign transaction fees on the cards....let's say for discussion 3%....might still apply that 3% fee which is more salt in the wound. 

 

They apply the 3% fee not because the exchange involved foreign currency but simply because it was a foreign transaction in any currency....THB, USD, EUR, etc.   Only the most fee-evil banks apply the fee in this way.  And unless something has changed, for those Bank of America credit/debit cards which have a foreign transaction fee (some do, some don't) that's how BoA applies the fee....applies it regardless of currency involved. 

 

The less fee-evil banks will not charge the foreign transaction if the ATM/merchant accomplished the exchange to USD on the ATM/merchant end versus letting Visa/Mastercard do it.

TDbank steals 3 percent in a fee attached to your transaction, which is placed on your account not at the time of the transaction, but hours later.

 

If you withdraw enough, the 3 percent fee could overdraw your account and you wouldn't know it.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

8 minutes ago, Eindhoven said:

 

30000 baht withdrawn over the counter with a Mastercard yesterday would have cost me the equivalent of 862.33 Euro.

TW is useful in it's own right, but not for me.

 

 

In general, the best deal a person's going to get in Thailand with electronic transactions is going to be using a no foreign currency fee debit card either with a no-fee bank counter advance or via an Thai ATM where the Thai 220b is either waived or reimbursed by the card-issuing bank.

 

But either of the above approaches require the card holder to be well informed and careful... Careful that their home country bank isn't charging an explicit or hidden foreign currency conversion fee. And on the Thai end, that the Thai bank handling the counter withdrawal isn't charging a reduced exchange rate on foreign cards as some do, like SCB....

 

The counter advance has the advance of allowing larger single transaction withdrawal amounts, but requires the person to present their passport, and sometimes banks/bank staff that will refuse to do them. The ATMs have the advantage of being easy and convenient, but limited to a max of 30,000 baht per withdrawal.  But again, IF there are no FCFs being charged anywhere along the processes.

 

 

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

6 minutes ago, Pib said:

And once again to preaching to the choir....just for other listening in....some card-issuing banks who have foreign transaction fees on the cards....let's say for discussion 3%....might still apply that 3% fee which is more salt in the wound. 

 

They apply the 3% fee not because the exchange involved foreign currency but simply because it was a foreign transaction in any currency....THB, USD, EUR, etc.   Only the most fee-evil banks apply the fee in this way.  And unless something has changed, for those Bank of America credit/debit cards which have a foreign transaction fee (some do, some don't) that's how BoA applies the fee....applies it regardless of currency involved. 

 

The less fee-evil banks will not charge the foreign transaction if the ATM/merchant accomplished the exchange to USD on the ATM/merchant end versus letting Visa/Mastercard do it.

 

I think the banks refer to those as "cross border" transactions. They'll charge an extra fee even if the transaction is done abroad via DCC or with a foreign vendor.... simply because it occurred outside your home country, not because any foreign currency was converted. 

 

Usually, in my experience, the banks that don't charge any foreign currency conversion fee don't charge it in either scenario... either because there's actually been a foreign currency exchange, or because the transaction merely occurred with a foreign vendor/in a foreign country.

 

 

[lopburi3]

11 minutes ago, Stadtler said:

Where is the 5.9 percent? 31 Baht minus 29 gives a difference of roughly 2 Baht.

Which is about 6%.  If it were 100 and 98 it would be 2%

[Pib]

8 minutes ago, Pib said:

And once again to preaching to the choir....just for other listening in....some card-issuing banks who have foreign transaction fees on the cards....let's say for discussion 3%....might still apply that 3% fee which is more salt in the wound. 

 

They apply the 3% fee not because the exchange involved foreign currency but simply because it was a foreign transaction in any currency....THB, USD, EUR, etc.   Only the most fee-evil banks apply the fee in this way.  And unless something has changed, for those Bank of America credit/debit cards which have a foreign transaction fee (some do, some don't) that's how BoA applies the fee....applies it regardless of currency involved. 

 

The less fee-evil banks will not charge the foreign transaction if the ATM/merchant accomplished the exchange to USD on the ATM/merchant end versus letting Visa/Mastercard do it.

 

Yeap....BoA still charges the foreign transaction fee on many (not all) of its credit cards regardless of what currency the transaction is accomplished in such as THB, USD, etc.....like a DCC transaction which is done in USD when using US BoA credit card. 

 

See snapshot from their fee schedule for one of their credit cards....notice the "or" word as in foreign currency or USD....or said another way if the transaction was done outside the US in any currency (THB, USD, EUR, GBP, etc) as a fee-evil bank I'm going to hit you with the foreign transaction fee (if the BoA credit card has a foreign transaction fee....some do, some don't).

 

But I think for their debit cards they have went to a flat dollar charge versus a percentage for those BoA debit cards that apply a foreign transaction fee.

 

A person just needs to know what fees their debit/credit card applies....review the "card-issuing bank's" fee schedule for the card.