The youngest girls at CM 11 looked around 12 or 13 years old and there were not many of them. Also, Vietnamese look much younger than Thais because of their sparse diets, so I'm not even sure that they were as young as that.

Sad as it is, there is a big difference between 13 years old and "little kids sitting around tables or playing in the dirt out front" which sounds like around 5 to ten years old. I find it very difficult to believe that such places existed, but so many of us old timers never saw them.

Well, for me 12 or 13 year old girls are little kids. But lets not go into semantics here.

Yes, they are very young, but they also are sexually mature and will soon get pregnant or married anyway. The boyfreind soon dumps them and there they are on the game.

Yes, they are very young, but they also are sexually mature and will soon get pregnant or married anyway. The boyfreind soon dumps them and there they are on the game.

I think you do miss the point a bit.

It's not like a 12/13 year old run away in the west living the street life (which is already bad enough), but adding to the age issue (and i do not agree that a girl at the beginning of puberty is sexually mature other than in a purely physical way, and even that often not completely as their sexual organs are still in the process of growth and development) - those girls are almost all against their will in those brothels.

This is slavery, and has nothing remotely to do with prostitution as i would define it - mature adults decide on their free will to engage in a transaction of sexual gratification for material benefit.

Yeah that's pretty sick Mr G, it seems as if any age is fair game to you.

Sexually 'mature' at 12 or 13?

When I was a new member to ThaiVisa I first thought your arrogance was humour,

but then after a while it turned out only to be self centered opinion,

thats ok no problem, but the fact is the more I find out about you the more sleazy you appear.

I know some members of this forum don't really give a toss about human rights or the suffering of others as long as they get what they want at a good price, but children being forced into sexual slavery, are you saying that it is justifiable because at twelve or thirteen they would otherwise get pregnant or married anyway? Shouldn't children of a different ethnic background to yourself still have freedom of choice and protection from cruelty?

^

Well, in many countries around the globe, as soon as a girl starts her menses, she's off to the races and the one undeniable fact is, there's a lot of poverty-stricken 12/13 year olds out there.

It's best to do some research (boots on ground) before making too hard & fast conclusions.

^

Well, in many countries around the globe, as soon as a girl starts her menses, she's off to the races and the one undeniable fact is, there's a lot of poverty-stricken 12/13 year olds out there.

It's best to do some research (boots on ground) before making too hard & fast conclusions.

What are you trying to you trying to say here?

That because they are not from our developed countries but from poverty stricken countries they suffer less when abused?

Sorry, but i really don't get what you are trying to say here. Yes, I know that these are facts, but that does not mean that we have to agree with these despicable conditions.

^

Well, in many countries around the globe, as soon as a girl starts her menses, she's off to the races and the one undeniable fact is, there's a lot of poverty-stricken 12/13 year olds out there.

It's best to do some research (boots on ground) before making too hard & fast conclusions.

Boon Mee,

It's impossible for you or any of the guys here to really do "research (boots on ground)" into this. You are not, nor have you ever been a 12 or 13 year old girl, much less one forced into sexual slavery at that age. So, what research into this could you possibly do? Unless that of purchaser?

Yes, some girls do become sexually active very early, for a variety of reasons, often not the girl's choice. But I was a 12 year old girl once. A very lucky one. All I had to worry about at 12 was school, my favourite pop groups & whether I'd had a tiff with my family. I cannot even comprehend being forced into a life of prostitution at my present age, never mind way back then.

Quite honestly, the quote (above) from you & the one from Mr. G, have made me nauseous. There can be no justification for this. Poverty should not lead to sex trafficking. It does, yes, I'm not naive, but as ColPyat says "that does not mean we have to agree with these despicable conditions"

Yeah that's pretty sick Mr G, it seems as if any age is fair game to you.

Sexually 'mature' at 12 or 13?

When I was a new member to ThaiVisa I first thought your arrogance was humour,

but then after a while it turned out only to be self centered opinion,

thats ok no problem, but the fact is the more I find out about you the more sleazy you appear.

I know some members of this forum don't really give a toss about human rights or the suffering of others as long as they get what they want at a good price, but children being forced into sexual slavery, are you saying that it is justifiable because at twelve or thirteen they would otherwise get pregnant or married anyway? Shouldn't children of a different ethnic background to yourself still have freedom of choice and protection from cruelty?

Who do you think you are making up a fake scenario about me to fit your twisted accusations? Where did I say that it is OK to abuse these girls?

I didn't. I said that they are not children in the sense of someone who has not reached puberty. Are you too stupid to recognize that fact?

I don't have any interest in girls anywhere close to this age since you are too deranged to realize it on your own, but that doesn’t change their situation. I do however, wonder about cowards like you who point their fingers at others while hidden behind their computer.

Are you really too ignorant to realize that sexually mature means pubescent"? Are you really too dumb to know that after a young girl reaches puberty, she can get pregnant and is considered "sexually mature". After that, half the village is trying to get in her pants and they often do.

This is reality for many girls from Third World countries and Westerners have nothing to do with it and can do little to stop it no matter how angry or indignant they get.

Robski, the next time that you start accusing me or anyone else of being a child molester, I will report you to the mods.

By the way, I could care less about your silly-ass opinions of me or anything else. Keep them to yourself!

Quite honestly, the quote (above) from you & the one from Mr. G, have made me nauseous. There can be no justification for this. Poverty should not lead to sex trafficking. It does, yes, I'm not naive, but as ColPyat says "that does not mean we have to agree with these despicable conditions"

Nobody is jusifying it and nobody is agreeing with it, however, that is the way it is.

Who do you think you are making up a fake scenario about me to fit your twisted accusations? Where did I say that it is OK to abuse these girls?

Yes, i think that throwing around with personal accusations will not make a good discussion at all. We should be able to discuss this subject in a civil and factual manner.

And I say if there aint no truth it aint gonna hurt.

I commented that to say that girls of 12 or 13 are sexually mature and would otherwise be be married or pregnant anyway, was pretty sick. That kind of justification comes from a man who has already proved in the past to have pretty low morals as regrds to females.

Are you really too dumb to know that after a young girl reaches puberty, she can get pregnant and is considered "sexually mature". After that, half the village is trying to get in her pants and they often do.

Another pearl of wisdom from you, how do you know this to be true, does this mean that half the village, which would I guess be all the men, have no morals at all? That northern Thai or Burmese village men are unable to differentiate between an adolesant and a woman?

That they arte all potential child molesters? Now that makes me very angry, I wonder how most of those men would treat your view?

I stand by what I sat Mr G and you throwing a hissy fit and claiming I'm calling you a Peado is not going to make me change my opinion.

Most posters have come into this thread, and condemed the abuse of women and children, and you have said 'in a round about way' that is justifiable. It would seem to me that you are trying to throw the scent off you now by causing a fuss.

As for me hiding behind my keyboard, nah I don't need to do that.

I'll be back in Thailand at the end of the year, and my picture is in my profile.

Perhaps you would like to meet for a friendly drink when I am in Chiang Mai.

Ahem...

Point taken Jai Dee, can we have some more material to refresh this debate?

I'd like to remind members of the Forum Rules, and in particular the rules about flaming other members (or insinuating that they are paedophiles), no matter how much they disagree with what has been posted.

Although I might have said it a different way, UG has stated facts about young girls in Thailand... and the way they can sometimes be treated in their own villages and schools. I know of this happening personally... in the up-country village my wife came from, so I know he is not manufacturing stories.

As colpyat says, we know that these are facts, but that does not mean that we have to agree with these despicable conditions.

But as UG rightly points out, nobody is justifying it and nobody is agreeing with it, however, that is the way it is.

I see no need for name calling and flames here.

I'd like to remind members of the Forum Rules, and in particular the rules about flaming other members (or insinuating that they are paedophiles), no matter how much they disagree with what has been posted.

Although I might have said it a different way, UG has stated facts about young girls in Thailand... and the way they can sometimes be treated in their own villages and schools. I know of this happening personally... in the up-country village my wife came from, so I know he is not manufacturing stories.

As colpyat says, we know that these are facts, but that does not mean that we have to agree with these despicable conditions.

But as UG rightly points out, nobody is justifying it and nobody is agreeing with it, however, that is the way it is.

I see no need for name calling and flames here.

Very good reply Jai Dee (jeeze is this allowed?)

This is an emotive issue and far too important to turn into a shooting gallery. Robski I think you are a nice guy and I know UG is. We should be looking at what WE can do to reduce this and I think the very first thing is to acknowledge that no matter how reprehensible the act, there are documented evidence of it happening in various parts of SE Asia. There are even Billboards appearing in the CM streets depicting a man walking with a child and warning about child sexual abuse. I personally don't know of any instances in the CM city but I think it is possible for it to happen. Please lets take care of eachother and maybe we can one woman and one child's life leff of a nightmare.

CB

Quite honestly, the quote (above) from you & the one from Mr. G, have made me nauseous. There can be no justification for this. Poverty should not lead to sex trafficking. It does, yes, I'm not naive, but as ColPyat says "that does not mean we have to agree with these despicable conditions"

Nobody is jusifying it and nobody is agreeing with it, however, that is the way it is.

My point exactly.

Until one understands the socioeconomic dynamic driving these girls into the above-referenced life...until one understands how a momasan from certain places of entertainment (Bangkok for example) will travel to the villages and recruit young girls..

One of the enduring qualities of farang (to Thais) is their naiveté...

BM, yeah, OK, whatever. I don't have the will or the energy to argue the point with you.

Maybe because you don't have one?

We all agree that it is very sad that anyone is forced or tricked into the sex business and that youngsters should be protected from it, but we all realize that our opinions matter very little to local people. What else is there to say?

That you already ruined this thread with your comments.

And I agree with NR, arguing with Boon Mee is a pointless exercise which has nothing to do with right or wrong.

I'm outa here.

Maybe because you don't have one?

No, because I have problems of my own, concerning my mother's health & my future along with the dog center's & my little boy's. I was supposed to find out about my Mum's health today, but it's inconclusive after very few tests & they won't schedule the next test until Aug 29th, which could be too late if she has what she suspects for the 3rd time.

Now, you couldn't be expected to know that. It's nothing to do with anyone else, shit happens. It just goes to show how selfish all of us are when our own family are threatened. Quite honestly, this matter (the thread) pales in my mind tonight. I can't argue about something that, for tonight at least, matters less to me than my family. Well, I've finished messengering her for tonight, so I'm logging off. Sorry, all, for going off topic.

Maybe because you don't have one?

We all agree that it is very sad that anyone is forced or tricked into the sex business and that youngsters should be protected from it, but we all realize that our opinions matter very little to local people. What else is there to say?

For farang to come to Thailand (or anywhere in SE Asia for that matter) and project their mores and opinions after a relatively short time in-country is sheer arrogance. That said, the volunteers who work with Cambodian girls to rescue them from a sordid existence are to be commended.

Sorry.

It is every one's right to have an opinion. If you don't like it, don't listen.

To lump everyone as a newbie " farung", therefore not worthy of comment, is a tad racist to say the least.

Constructive comment is how we all progress in life. It does not matter if the comment comes from a child, or in your view a "new" farung, if it is well said and well intentioned, you may well find yourself a better person if you listen.

Maybe because you don't have one?

We all agree that it is very sad that anyone is forced or tricked into the sex business and that youngsters should be protected from it, but we all realize that our opinions matter very little to local people. What else is there to say?

For farang to come to Thailand (or anywhere in SE Asia for that matter) and project their mores and opinions after a relatively short time in-country is sheer arrogance. That said, the volunteers who work with Cambodian girls to rescue them from a sordid existence are to be commended.

In my case - i have been here since close to 20 years. That is not a short while, especially considering that i am not even 40 yet, and hope that i have a few more decades here in front of me.

And yes, thank you, i have done my research, and i don't project my "mores" on people here. In fact, an 11 year old, soon to be sexually mature niece is right now living with us, so she can be able to get an education here in Bangkok, so she does not have to drift into prostitution like so many of her female relatives. And, her dad is very happy about that, he would be gutted if his daughter would end up in prostitution. And no he would rather prefer to stay dirt poor than having to live with the shame of seeing his daughter in that life.

So, having a life and a family here, having seen many nieces grow up just to drift off into prostitution this issue is personal for me, and for many older members of our family. I don't really see their "mores" differing in any way from mine. The only difference is that because of poverty they have to put up with shame and pain people of my wealthy background never needed to put with.

And i have seen far closer up than i ever really wanted what happens in Cambodia, including going into villages and having spoken with families whose daughters were kidnapped or sold. And no, i have not detected any different "mores" with those parents either, just the same pain i would have felt if i would have been in their position.

These arguments about the different "mores" is older than older than Methuselah's beard, but it only shows, especially when applied to this situation, a distinct lack of empathy.

People are not that fundamentally different - they have the same emotions. Poverty does ugly things to people at times, but not all people become raw and uncompassionate. Heck, even some people from very wealthy countries are lacking compassion for their fellow human beings and their suffering, often explaining this away with some very fuzzy notions of different "mores".

Personally, i believe this is an unacceptable situation, and in some ways, and sometimes we can make a difference. It won't change the world, but maybe the future of one or the other person.

There are indeed people who benefit from these conditions and support their continuation, but honestly - their opinion matters very little to me.

I don't know, but as soon as one gets personally involved, then all that talk about different cultures and apathetic statements of concern are a bit bewildering. Maybe you don't have children, but i don't know how you otherwise can feel so removed from this problem.

That you already ruined this thread with your comments.

Actually, YOU ruined it with your baseless personal accusations, sicko fantasies and name calling.

Some people are just not intelligent enough to do anything else.

Maybe you don't have children, but i don't know how you otherwise can feel so removed from this problem.

It sounds like you have made this your personal cause and that is admirable, but as to how most people can feel so removed from this, I would venture that it is in the same way that we feel removed from starvation and poverty in Darfor and Somalia, AIDS in Africa, acid throwing in Cambodia and India, the burning of Buddhists in Southern Thailand and about 1,000 other things.

A lot of terrible tragedies are happening in the world all of the time that we can do very little about. Sometimes you have to wait for better opportunities in the future and just let things be.

Maybe you don't have children, but i don't know how you otherwise can feel so removed from this problem.

It sounds like you have made this your personal cause and that is admirable, but as to how most people can feel so removed from this, I would venture that it is in the same way that we feel removed from starvation and poverty in Darfor and Somalia, AIDS in Africa, acid throwing in Cambodia and India, the burning of Buddhists in Southern Thailand and about 1,000 other things.

A lot of terrible tragedies are happening in the world all of the time that we can do very little about. Sometimes you have to wait for better opportunities in the future and just let things be.

This is not my personal cause, it is just one of the many issues i have to deal with. If we choose so, we can remove ourselves from every issue, and not allow us to be touched by it. Personally, for me the benefits of allowing myself to be touched outweigh by far the consequences of closing myself to the suffering of others.

By the way, the situation in Southern Thailand is more complex than just "Buddhists being burned". There are more Muslim casualties, and the Muslim communities are in some ways even more affected negatively by the insurgency than the Buddhist communities. Other than the equal fear they have to live with in daily life, they also have to life with the enormous distrust towards their fellow villagers, even towards their family members, going so far that Muslim village defense force members have on some occasions killed their own relatives while they staged attacks. Simplifying this conflict along religious lines is the wrong approach.

Anyhow, that is besides the topic, just another issue i do feel increasingly strong about.

We may not be able to change the larger injustices in the world, but we can make a difference. Closing ourself to the suffering of others lets us forget that we in fact do have the ability to positively change some things.

We may not be able to change the larger injustices in the world, but we can make a difference. Closing ourself to the suffering of others lets us forget that we in fact do have the ability to positively change some things.

Durn hippies!

Durn hippies!

We may not be able to change the larger injustices in the world, but we can make a difference. Closing ourself to the suffering of others lets us forget that we in fact do have the ability to positively change some things.

Durn hippies!

Don't forget to include those smelly backpackers too.

The ones that swarm the BTS...

Is Burma really a tourist destination?

unfortunately, yes. I know some folks who love to travel there because it is pristine and are in full support of the political situation.

I always replied to them that there are other nice places in the world where I rather would spend my tourist dollars.

Raro I like Myammar and the people are very decent - unfortunately the military junta is not. To go there you have to have government issued tokens which is a requisite for the visa but I used them for "official purposes" ie flying, government buses, bigger hotels etc anything that had the finger, hand, or fist of the military junta in it. For the rest of the time I use real money and stayed in small "unofficial guesthouses" where the small amount of tourist money is much appreciated.

I find it difficult to accept that any tourist "is in full support of the political situation" as you wrote. I have never met one on tour there but I think the tourists who take photographs, write articles about the situation that exists there, and the excesses of the junta are helping to move the tide against the Myammar military junta.

CB

I agree. By the way, the 'token' (FEC/Foreign Exchange Certificates) system was abolished in Aug 2003, as was the mandatory exchange of US$200 on arrival.

As for tourism's support of prostitution in Myanmar, as in Thailand the vast majority of sexual transactions take place at the local level.

Is Burma really a tourist destination?

unfortunately, yes. I know some folks who love to travel there because it is pristine and are in full support of the political situation.

I always replied to them that there are other nice places in the world where I rather would spend my tourist dollars.

A sizable contingent of Burmese agree with you, raro...

Burmese activist says tourists bankroll terror

Naing Ko Ko was forced to behave like a dog.

A Burmese democracy activist forced to live like a dog for six months wants tourists to boycott Burma because their dollars fund the military regime that jailed him.

Naing Ko Ko, 35, was given residence in New Zealand in December after Council of Trade Unions leader Ross Wilson asked Prime Minister Helen Clark for a letter to rescue him from detention in Thailand.

He will speak at three screenings of a film about forced labour in Burma at the Human Rights Film Festival, which opens in Auckland today.

He was forced to live like a dog after he was jailed in Rangoon's infamous Insein Prison in 1992 because of involvement in the student-based democracy movement when he was at university.

"Every political prisoner has to behave as a dog," he said. "When the guards talk to you, you have to bark and say, 'Woof, woof.' You can't reply 'Yes' and 'No', you have to say, 'Woof, woof."'

His food was placed on the floor and he had to go down on his hands and knees and eat it like a dog, without using his hands or utensils.

When he was finally released in 1998, he and his mother had to sign bonds stating he would not take part in political activities. But he escaped to Thailand and joined other exiled activists.

He will speak this week at screenings of Total Denial, a film by Bulgarian director Milena Kaneva about a natural gas pipeline built with forced labour by French oil company Total and US company Unocal from Burma to Thailand, which led to a legal challenge in the US courts.

Fifteen villagers forced to work on the project without pay were awarded US$28 million ($37.7 million) in compensation - US$10 million for themselves and the rest for development in the affected area.

As international campaign secretary for the exiled Federation of Trade Unions of Burma, Mr Naing said all multinationals operating in the country, and tourists visiting there, effectively funded guns for the military Government.

Even a New Zealand Aid project spending $500,000 over three years to provide small-scale irrigation was helping the regime.

- New Zealand Herald