9 hours ago, JonnyF said:

You seem to have the same reading comprehension issues as welovesundaysatspace. Nobody is suggesting the UK will trade ONLY on WTO terms. That would be ridiculous.

 

In fact, we've already rolled over 19 of the 40 trade deals we had as part of the EU. We are working on 18 more.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47213842

 

We are also working on trade deals with countries the EU doesn't have deals with such as USA, India, Australia etc.

 

We also don't have to pay 100 Billion Euros into the EU wealth transfer scheme post Covid19. 

 

Plus we get to dance in Remainer tears and laugh at their strawman arguments. It's really a great time to be a Brexiteer! ????

 

 

 

 

 

Partly in the minds of many Brexiteers exists the idea of realizing the trade agreements is the same as buying a packet of butter in the supermarket.

Unfortunately, this is not the case.

 

And the term "rolled over the trade deals" is also misleading. The UK essentially copies the EU's contractual structures, but adjustments are made in terms of quantities, contingents, quotas and tariffs, since the UK market is much smaller than the EU market in its contracts.

 

Much is called a trade contract, but the scope of the regulations can vary widely.

Some contracts only regulate certain physical product groups, others are more extensive and include e.g. services and investments.

 

Many trade contracts are interwoven and mutually dependent. If, for example the UK has concluded a trade agreement with Thailand on peanuts and pineapples and has defined certain free quantities here (and hopefully also production standards), and then negotiated after with the United States, they US will look sour when the UK market potential for peanuts and pineapples is already covered by another country.

 

In general, commercial contracts are a complicated matter. Both sides of the negotiation are looking for common win-win situations. Nobody signs a contract that only brings disadvantages. So far I don't see any new better contracts for the UK.  But only 8% of copied EU contracts with reduced quantity contingents and perhaps reduced product standards.

 

14 hours ago, englishoak said:

 

Its a straw man argument and tbh if you have to ask there is little point in my answering it at length....ill put it like this...  

 

If you are allowed to rent and you can afford it forever with all the maintenance and responsibilities would you want to own your house ? Either you know and care about the difference and prepared to to do what is required or you dont. 

 

Personally I would go to great lengths to assure I own my own home etc but I know plenty of people who just dont or want the responsibility..I dont care what they want to do as long as they dont try to force me to rent too... I hope that answers your Q ????

 

 

 

What are you on about? A house is something that is tangible. Self determination is a state of mind. If it makes you feel good then great but in all reality it's not going to change any of our lifes for the better whatsoever

 

If you said to me cost of living will go down then then I'm fully on board but all indicators point to the contrary

 

 

9 hours ago, JonnyF said:

We don't have to pay 100 Billion Euros into the wealth transfer scheme post C19.

 

There's one.

 

Great, I'm looking forward to a reduction in NI and tax then, after all, the money saved will reduce our contributions.

 

Edited July 23, 20205 yr by Chelseafan

A no-deal HARD Brexit now looks likely.  Barnier is filling his nappy.

No deal will destroy the EU fishing industry. Great Britain will be free to undercut and out-compete the EU.

The EU has been nothing more than a 40 year long scam to strip the UK of its industry, science and technology in order to benefit France and Germany.

 

Just now, Lormak said:

A no-deal HARD Brexit now looks likely.  Barnier is filling his nappy.

No deal will destroy the EU fishing industry. Great Britain will be free to undercut and out-compete the EU.

The EU has been nothing more than a 40 year long scam to strip the UK of its industry, science and technology in order to benefit France and Germany.

 

 

As I said before they will negoitate to the 11th hour if needs be and a deal will be done.

It WON'T destroy the fishing industry. They will do what I have to in my job, they will source elsewhere.

How has it been a scam ?

 

3 minutes ago, Chelseafan said:

 

As I said before they will negoitate to the 11th hour if needs be and a deal will be done.

It WON'T destroy the fishing industry. They will do what I have to in my job, they will source elsewhere.

How has it been a scam ?

 

Barnier himself has said No Deal will destroy the EU fishing industry. Ask him.

The EU systematically set out to concentrate manufacturing in France and Germany to the detriment of UK.  Compare car production in UK, France and Germany in 1973 and now!

 

37 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Correct.

 

Which is the fault of our membership how?

 

Remember strikes and failure to modernise which crippled firms like British Leyland and threw tens of thousands out of work? How was that the fault of the EU?

 

Remember the worldwide recession at that time? Had we not been a member then the situation could easily have been worse!

 

In 2018, the UK unemployment rate was the lowest since 1975. If EU membership causes unemployment, explain that!

 

The entire Soviet Bloc did not join the EU. 450 million people did not immediately move to the UK!

 

Approximately one third of immigrants to the UK come from EU member states. Brexit will have no effect on the remaining two thirds. 

 

 

Freedom of movement was a fundamental right within the EEC from the very beginning; long before we joined.

The mantra of the 1975 referendum was "Your jobs are safer with Britain in the EEC" 3.5 million jobs weren't safer. Or maybe if we'd have left the EEC 7 million would've been unemployed?

I obviously didn't say that 450 million people moved to the UK, I said they were given the right to.

I never said that the Soviet Union joined, I said most of the Soviet bloc. 

1 minute ago, Lormak said:

Barnier himself has said No Deal will destroy the EU fishing industry. Ask him.

The EU systematically set out to concentrate manufacturing in France and Germany to the detriment of UK.  Compare car production in UK, France and Germany in 1973 and now!

 

 

Can you provide a link because I cannot find any mention of him saying that.

 

Car production is down simply because we produced so many <deleted> cars not to mention serious mismangament over the years and strong trade unions.

7 minutes ago, Lormak said:

Barnier himself has said No Deal will destroy the EU fishing industry. Ask him.

The EU systematically set out to concentrate manufacturing in France and Germany to the detriment of UK.  Compare car production in UK, France and Germany in 1973 and now!

 

I think you'll find the British were unable to produce good quality cars. Hence they did not sell as good as German cars. 

 

Large German car sales then allowed Volkswagen, BMW etc to buy British car manufacturers outright.

 

It happens, the German camera industry went the same way against Japanese competition.

Edited July 23, 20205 yr by Logosone

7 minutes ago, Lormak said:

<snip>

The EU systematically set out to concentrate manufacturing in France and Germany to the detriment of UK.  Compare car production in UK, France and Germany in 1973 and now!

So the strikes, failure to modernise and production of cars nobody wanted to buy by the UK car industry in the 1970s and 80s was the fault of the EU?

 

You really are paranoid.

38 minutes ago, Andrew65 said:

The mantra of the 1975 referendum was "Your jobs are safer with Britain in the EEC" 3.5 million jobs weren't safer. Or maybe if we'd have left the EEC 7 million would've been unemployed?

Maybe the crisis would have resulted in 7 million unemployed had we not joined. But that's speculation.

 

What's a fact is that, apart from some spikes caused by worldwide crises, the unemployment rate has been steadily falling  and is now lower than it was in 1975.

 

38 minutes ago, Andrew65 said:

I obviously didn't say that 450 million people moved to the UK, I said they were given the right to.

So what was your point? They didn't move here, did they. 

 

It may have escaped your notice, but when we were a member UK citizens had the same right to move to the other member states.

 

A right which, as I said, existed well before we joined.

 

38 minutes ago, Andrew65 said:

I never said that the Soviet Union joined

I never said that you did.

 

38 minutes ago, Andrew65 said:

I said most of the Soviet bloc. 

You said

20 hours ago, Andrew65 said:

Fast forward to the 1990's, the Soviet bloc has collapsed and most of the countries subsumed into the EU

Of the 19 countries which were part of the Soviet bloc, either as republics within the Soviet Union or as puppet states, 7 are EU members. 

 

That's less than half; hardly 'most!'

Edited July 23, 20205 yr by 7by7
typos

(But Frost is sure a deal can still be made in…….September.... sure...???? maybe he think 31 December also possible still...?????)

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/07/23/uk-making-post-brexit-trade-deal-unlikely-michel-barnier-warns/

 

UK is making post-Brexit trade deal 'unlikely', Michel Barnier warns 

UK chief negotiator David Frost says his 'assessment is that agreement can still be reached in September' 

By
James Franey
23 July 2020 • 1:40pm 

 

 

Michel Barnier has said a post-Brexit trade deal is "unlikely" unless the UK is willing to cede to Brussels' demands on fishing and the "level playing field" guarantees the EU says are needed to prevent unfair competition.

"This week again the UK did not show a willingness to break the deadlock," Mr Barnier, the EU's chief negotiator, said after talks ended in London. "But the EU cannot accept and will not accept the bill for the UK's political choices.

"By its current refusal to commit to open and fair competition and a balanced agreement on fisheries, the UK makes a trade agreement, at this point, unlikely."

 

more...
 

Edited July 23, 20205 yr by david555

21 minutes ago, david555 said:

Michel Barnier has said a post-Brexit trade deal is "unlikely" unless the UK is willing to cede to Brussels' demands on fishing and the "level playing field" guarantees the EU says are needed to prevent unfair competition.

.....and that's simply not going to happen.

7 minutes ago, ukrules said:

.....and that's simply not going to happen.

I know ….. the E.U. side also not go to budge …., 3 months after the decision for Brexit now years ago, I realized this go be a NO deal case ….

 

But I was so surprised and still that U.K. still  think " E.U. go flat belly last moment as they always do"  (I wonder whenever that happened ?…)????   I guess that is U.K.'s ultimate hope in desperation 

Edited July 23, 20205 yr by david555

On 7/22/2020 at 6:03 AM, webfact said:

Britain and the European Union will fail to sign a post-Brexit trade deal

Why give a dam about a deal with a club that's got a lot of problems I thought that was the whole point of getting out of the mess the EU has got themselves into in the first place,

Just get on with it UK flig the bunch of losers.

 

10 minutes ago, david555 said:

I guess that is U.K.'s ultimate hope in desperation

That's where you're wrong.

 

No deal isn't a failure, it's a monumental achievement and the ultimate goal for a lot of people, especially those who thought up this idea of leaving the EU years back.

 

It breaks the tether......

Just now, ukrules said:

That's where you're wrong.

 

No deal isn't a failure, it's a monumental achievement and the ultimate goal for a lot of people, especially those who thought up this idea of leaving the EU years back.

 

It breaks the tether......

  O.K. let us hope it ends finally now , as it looks like the "divorcee" is standing in the doorway  (4 Years already ) while yelling …. I am goooooiiiiing you know ! !????

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

So the strikes, failure to modernise and production of cars nobody wanted to buy by the UK car industry in the 1970s and 80s was the fault of the EU?

 

You really are paranoid.

Quite a long time ago MG Rover almost went bust & was bought out by the Chinese. When a British politician was asked why the government wasn't helping, he replied that:

"It was against EU rules on state aid".

47 minutes ago, ukrules said:

.....and that's simply not going to happen.

you are probably right,

but it is somewhat weird the importance this fishing is getting

kinda symbolic me guess

 

without the herring and the odd cod blighty would go down the drain ...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 23, 20205 yr by melvinmelvin
add

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

Maybe the crisis would have resulted in 7 million unemployed had we not joined. But that's speculation.

 

What's a fact is that, apart from some spikes caused by worldwide crises, the unemployment rate has been steadily falling  and is now lower than it was in 1975.

 

So what was your point? They didn't move here, did they. 

 

It may have escaped your notice, but when we were a member UK citizens had the same right to move to the other member states.

 

A right which, as I said, existed well before we joined.

 

I never said that you did.

 

You said

Of the 19 countries which were part of the Soviet bloc, either as republics within the Soviet Union or as puppet states, 7 are EU members. 

 

That's less than half; hardly 'most!'

There are in fact 10 former Soviet bloc countries now in the EU (11 if East Germany was included):

 

Bulgaria, Czech Republic,  Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia. It's not really true if the Baltic states aren't included.

The point I'm making is that if in 1975 people were told that these places were coming into the EEC/EU, people would've voted against it.

 

the EU was never going to agree to a deal as they want to carry on plundering UK fish stocks ad naseum as it adds up to billions of fish to sell which they plunder for free..so they would never agree to losing their free fish to sell as they have depleted all their own fish stocks

 

they use enormous factory ships which hoover up all fish stocks in a given area and deplete fish stocks

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/04/trawler-14-times-size-uk-fishing-boats-plundering-fish-british/

 

A super trawler 14 times the size of UK fishing boats is plundering thousands of tonnes of fish from British waters before Brexit, when the Government will be able to kick the vessel out.

The 6,200 tonne Lithuanian-registered Margiris vessel was boarded by Government officials on Wednesday and found to be operating legally under European laws.

However, environmentalists fear it could be endangering short beaked common dolphins and bluefin tuna.

The ship - described as a vast floating fishing factory which can net and process 250 tonnes of fish each day - has been the target of a series of campaigns culminating in it being banned from Australian waters in 2013.

Edited July 23, 20205 yr by 3NUMBAS

38 minutes ago, 3NUMBAS said:

the EU was never going to agree to a deal as they want to carry on plundering UK fish stocks ad naseum as it adds up to billions of fish to sell which they plunder for free..so they would never agree to losing their free fish to sell as they have depleted all their own fish stocks

 

they use enormous factory ships which hoover up all fish stocks in a given area and deplete fish stocks

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/04/trawler-14-times-size-uk-fishing-boats-plundering-fish-british/

 

A super trawler 14 times the size of UK fishing boats is plundering thousands of tonnes of fish from British waters before Brexit, when the Government will be able to kick the vessel out.

The 6,200 tonne Lithuanian-registered Margiris vessel was boarded by Government officials on Wednesday and found to be operating legally under European laws.

However, environmentalists fear it could be endangering short beaked common dolphins and bluefin tuna.

The ship - described as a vast floating fishing factory which can net and process 250 tonnes of fish each day - has been the target of a series of campaigns culminating in it being banned from Australian waters in 2013.

(From a comment on The Telegraph conserning this topic ... nothing is my line …..)https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/04/trawler-14-times-size-uk-fishing-boats-plundering-fish-british/#comments

 

 

 

Stewart Ellinson 28 Oct 2019 1:06AM

Parlevliet & Van der Plas, operator of this large trawler. own 24% of UK fishing quotas. They have BOUGHT the quota; that was SOLD TO THEM BY THE UK GOVERNMENT.

So, how about a new headline: "UK government sells off UK fishing rights to Dutch company operating huge trawler"

That's the government who wants brexit.

The ones you think will make it better.

Ever get the feeling you've been conned????

 

 

Edited July 23, 20205 yr by david555

What is it the Brexiteers fail to understand?

This IS Brexit. This is what you were warned about. Crashing out of the EU with no deal. This is what you all wanted because you knew what you were voting for right?

It was always going to be like this. You guys called this project fear. 48% of us knew this as reality.

There was never a chance in hell the EU were going to roll over and give you all what you wanted. 

The EU cant do that. If it did EVERYONE in the EU would want the same deal. Never going to happen.

The EU has been utterly consistent throughout this. You cant have all the benefits of access to the single market without obeying the rules of the single market. Its that simple.

The only thing that led you to believe that was ever possible was the lies and slogans that people like Johnson kept telling you. And you voted for more of it?

If I was a Brexiteer I would not be happy. I would be asking why we were promised so much and the reality is going to be so different. I would be asking why we were lied to. I would be holding the people who told those lies to account.

Brexit is going to cause massive damage to the UK. We are going back to the early 1970's.

 

And I personally dont want all my clothing to be nylon and everyone smelling of cheap aftershave again.

 

2 hours ago, Andrew65 said:

There are in fact 10 former Soviet bloc countries now in the EU (11 if East Germany was included):

 

Bulgaria, Czech Republic,  Estonia, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, Slovakia, Slovenia. It's not really true if the Baltic states aren't included.

The point I'm making is that if in 1975 people were told that these places were coming into the EEC/EU, people would've voted against it.

 

 

in 1975 nobody knew they would, the countries concerned didn't even have the aspiration for joining

things have changed geopolitcally since 1975

 

what is your point? are you arguing that 1975 ain't equal to 2000 and a bit?

 

On 7/22/2020 at 6:42 AM, Andrew65 said:

There are many who think that a no deal Brexit is what Boris, JRM etc really wanted anyway, even when making a pretence of trying for/wanting a deal.

Like you, I suppose?

1 hour ago, Rookiescot said:

What is it the Brexiteers fail to understand?

This IS Brexit. This is what you were warned about. Crashing out of the EU with no deal. This is what you all wanted because you knew what you were voting for right?

It was always going to be like this. You guys called this project fear. 48% of us knew this as reality.

There was never a chance in hell the EU were going to roll over and give you all what you wanted. 

The EU cant do that. If it did EVERYONE in the EU would want the same deal. Never going to happen.

The EU has been utterly consistent throughout this. You cant have all the benefits of access to the single market without obeying the rules of the single market. Its that simple.

The only thing that led you to believe that was ever possible was the lies and slogans that people like Johnson kept telling you. And you voted for more of it?

If I was a Brexiteer I would not be happy. I would be asking why we were promised so much and the reality is going to be so different. I would be asking why we were lied to. I would be holding the people who told those lies to account.

Brexit is going to cause massive damage to the UK. We are going back to the early 1970's.

 

And I personally dont want all my clothing to be nylon and everyone smelling of cheap aftershave again.

 

SOS.

1 hour ago, david555 said:

(From a comment on The Telegraph conserning this topic ... nothing is my line …..)https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/10/04/trawler-14-times-size-uk-fishing-boats-plundering-fish-british/#comments

 

 

 

Stewart Ellinson 28 Oct 2019 1:06AM

Parlevliet & Van der Plas, operator of this large trawler. own 24% of UK fishing quotas. They have BOUGHT the quota; that was SOLD TO THEM BY THE UK GOVERNMENT.

So, how about a new headline: "UK government sells off UK fishing rights to Dutch company operating huge trawler"

That's the government who wants brexit.

The ones you think will make it better.

Ever get the feeling you've been conned????

 

 

And where do quotas come from?

2 hours ago, david555 said:

  O.K. let us hope it ends finally now , as it looks like the "divorcee" is standing in the doorway  (4 Years already ) while yelling …. I am goooooiiiiing you know ! !????

Yes, the EU won't be entitled to screw her anymore.

Edited July 23, 20205 yr by nauseus

3 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Maybe the crisis would have resulted in 7 million unemployed had we not joined. But that's speculation.

 

What's a fact is that, apart from some spikes caused by worldwide crises, the unemployment rate has been steadily falling  and is now lower than it was in 1975.

 

So what was your point? They didn't move here, did they. 

 

It may have escaped your notice, but when we were a member UK citizens had the same right to move to the other member states.

 

A right which, as I said, existed well before we joined.

 

I never said that you did.

 

You said

Of the 19 countries which were part of the Soviet bloc, either as republics within the Soviet Union or as puppet states, 7 are EU members. 

 

That's less than half; hardly 'most!'

More waiting.

3 hours ago, Andrew65 said:

Quite a long time ago MG Rover almost went bust & was bought out by the Chinese. When a British politician was asked why the government wasn't helping, he replied that:

"It was against EU rules on state aid".

 

Too bleedin' right. You think that the EU should bail out every failing firm ?

That is NOT the EU's fault and I would never want the EU to be pumping money into private enterprises to keep them afloat.

 

Mind you, if they can do it for banks.......

 

Edited July 23, 20205 yr by Chelseafan