Britain nears abandoning Brexit trade deal hope - The Telegraph

[JonnyF]

7 minutes ago, stephenterry said:

I'll post my position in answer to the above extract. While I have no time for political bureaucratic government, such is the case within the EU, and support the UK government's decision to stand alone - albeit they're a load of Yankers - I also consider a strong UK economy and trade links with the EU as being essential for future and healthy growth.

 

Also, a strategic partnership with the EU in security, technology advancement, and resolution of environmental issues, such as global warming, is a 'must have' in today's global scenario. Trade agreements with the USA will be insufficient in maintaining our health standards - that's a no brainer.   

 

As a nation, we won't be able to achieve this on our own, despite Leavers attraction to automation, sovereignty (which has been retained throughout) and self determination ideology. It makes me sad to know Leavers are unable to comprehend the realities of today's world.

Well, there are 168 countries outside the EU and 27 in it. I guess those 168 countries are all screwed whereas the likes of Hungary and Poland are the envy of the world.

 

As for trade, we can continue to trade with the EU (as Canada does) once they grow up and sign an FTA. It's only spite stopping them, and the individual member states that suffer won't accept paying for that spite.

 

I disagree with this "frog under the coconut shell" mentality. It's a big world out there and I don't want to hide behind the failing EU's skirt (or be controlled by it) any more.

[JonnyF]

10 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Hundreds of post yet not a single, tangible reason.

Not one.

We don't have to pay 100 Billion Euros into the wealth transfer scheme post C19.

 

There's one.

[RuamRudy]

7 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

We don't have to pay 100 Billion Euros into the wealth transfer scheme post C19.

 

There's one.

That was particularly prescient of you, although I suspect you just plucked that number from where the sun don't shine - where the positive case from Brexit resides. 

 

 

[englishoak]

21 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Hundreds of post yet not a single, tangible reason.

Not one.

Don't be silly, I just gave you the main one last post, Self determination. The very same reason you get all dewy eyed and harp on about independence yet when given that option your own countrymen prefer to continue be ruled by the English... Thus we may conclude the Scots can be bought and bribed whilst the English apparently cannot. 

 

This is why England rules our island to this day and will continue to.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, englishoak said:

Don't be silly, I just gave you the main one last post, Self determination. The very same reason you get all dewy eyed and harp on about independence yet when given that option your own countrymen prefer to continue be ruled by the English... Thus we may conclude the Scots can be bought and bribed whilst the English apparently cannot. 

 

This is why England rules our island to this day and will continue to.

Our parliament just gave away our right to self determination to an unelected quango, and then voted to emasculate itself by giving up any right to challenge that quango. In what parallel world is that called self determination?

 

You have been conned by corrupt people and you have inflicted that upon the whole country. Cannot be bribed? Good god, you are having a laugh or haven't watched the news this week. Open your eyes, man! It is not too late to realise that they have made a fool of you. 

[JonnyF]

13 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

That was particularly prescient of you, although I suspect you just plucked that number from where the sun don't shine - where the positive case from Brexit resides. 

 

 

You can quibble about the figure to try to avoid the point if you like, typical Remainer deflection. Some estimates are 110 Billion. We won't know for sure what it would have been because thankfully we escaped the protectionist racket before the invoice could be sent, but it's safe to say we would have been a massive contributor to the Post Covid bailout. And now we can spend it on our own economy, where and when we need it. 

 

If you cannot admit that is a tangible benefit then either you are being disingenuous or your blinkers have been welded shut.

[englishoak]

Just now, RuamRudy said:

Our parliament just gave away our right to self determination to an unelected quango, and then voted to emasculate itself by giving up any right to challenge that quango. In what parallel world is that called self determination?

 

You have been conned by corrupt people and you have inflicted that upon the whole country. Cannot be bribed? Good god, you are having a laugh or haven't watched the news this week. Open your eyes, man! It is not too late to realise that they have made a fool of you. 

 

How Ironic that something you so desire is wrong when its achieved by another... those that can do, those that cannot only complain about those that do. 

 

One word... jealousy.

[Baerboxer]

On 7/22/2020 at 6:28 AM, stephenterry said:

It probably doesn't matter one iota as this government, headed by a muppet, is capable of mismanaging everything from the Coronavirus, the NHS, the Care home deaths, their own backbenchers, Russian infiltration, and the economy - which will be funded by the taxpayer for decades after. 

 

It's a pity that Starmer won't be in Downing St until winning the 2024 election- or hopefully earlier if a no confidence vote is successful. As for fishing rights who'd want to risk their health by consuming polluted fish anyway? 

 

England - I'm sad to say is currently a waste of space... 

 

That would be the same Starmer who selected the evil Naz Sharma for his shadow cabinet. The anti Semitic bitch who supported and circulated a Tweet saying the white children victims of Muslim pedo gangs should shut their mouths in the interests of racial harmony?

 

And you think these clowns would actually be an improvement?? More like poor old UK, out of the frying pan and into the fire!

Edited July 23, 2020 by Baerboxer

[David gilbert]

Boris just tell Merkel if you dont play ball you want to see the tariffs we are gonna put on Audi bmw Volkswagen Porsche mercedes etc and macron there our fishing rights or no more wine cheese citroens peugots etc, as far as I can see, they need us a lot more than we need them, tell them like it is or tell them to fuxx off boris

[Baerboxer]

43 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

Well, there are 168 countries outside the EU and 27 in it. I guess those 168 countries are all screwed whereas the likes of Hungary and Poland are the envy of the world.

 

As for trade, we can continue to trade with the EU (as Canada does) once they grow up and sign an FTA. It's only spite stopping them, and the individual member states that suffer won't accept paying for that spite.

 

I disagree with this "frog under the coconut shell" mentality. It's a big world out there and I don't want to hide behind the failing EU's skirt (or be controlled by it) any more.

 

The core issue was always about federalism. The desire of France and Germany to lead a federal EU state, run and managed by politically appointed bureaucrats, which is being imposed without any real attempt to check if it's the will of the people. 

 

The UK would have been expected and bullied to give up it's common law system that applies to England, Wales and Northern Ireland (not Scotland) and conform to the codified law system the French love so much since Napoleon embraced it. That never really came out during the pre referendum pantomimes and has been somewhat ignored by the media. Had the UK voted to remain, that would've been a real issue.

 

The EU negotiating team, trying to represent the conflicting interests of 27 member states as well as non conflicting one, can only resort to trying to bully to get their own way on everything. France and Spain have powerful fishing lobbies, who covert British (and Irish) waters for their fleets to plunder. Giving way on fishing is politically difficult for France and Spain and they'd sooner risk a no deal so they can say they weren't to blame for loosing the fishing.

 

The UK, if not careful, would be under the EU heel. And how some member states would revel in that. 

[Rookiescot]

1 hour ago, JonnyF said:

You realize we are in July? Let's see how many have been rolled over by December 31. We finally have clarity that the EU won't be acting in good faith in negotiations so we will ramp up rolling over the remaining deals. The 19 we've done already were pretty easy, so much so it went pretty much unreported by the MSM, I'd be willing to bet you didn't even know we'd done it until you read the article. I don't see why we can't do another 19 in 6 months, as we're proposing the same terms there's nothing very complicated to agree apart from "Do you want to roll over the existing agreement? OK then sign here".

 

As for the 8%, on one hand you're saying we'll collapse without these amazing deals the EU has negotiated for us, and then when we roll them over you downplay those same deals "It's only 8% anyway". Can't have it both ways ????.

 

You also ignore the additional deals we can do that the EU has failed to do. Such as USA, India, Australia.

Its is you who wants it both ways.

First of all you claim you want WTO rules because most of the worlds trade is done via WTO rules.

Then you say you want trade deals.

You guys no longer flip flop. You have all started to flop flip ????.

 

[stephenterry]

56 minutes ago, JonnyF said:

We don't have to pay 100 Billion Euros into the wealth transfer scheme post C19.

 

There's one.

and here's another...

https://www.statista.com/chart/20544/forecast-cost-of-brexit-compared-to-the-uks-eu-budget-contributions/

[Rookiescot]

7 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

The core issue was always about federalism. The desire of France and Germany to lead a federal EU state, run and managed by politically appointed bureaucrats, which is being imposed without any real attempt to check if it's the will of the people. 

 

The UK would have been expected and bullied to give up it's common law system that applies to England, Wales and Northern Ireland (not Scotland) and conform to the codified law system the French love so much since Napoleon embraced it. That never really came out during the pre referendum pantomimes and has been somewhat ignored by the media. Had the UK voted to remain, that would've been a real issue.

 

The EU negotiating team, trying to represent the conflicting interests of 27 member states as well as non conflicting one, can only resort to trying to bully to get their own way on everything. France and Spain have powerful fishing lobbies, who covert British (and Irish) waters for their fleets to plunder. Giving way on fishing is politically difficult for France and Spain and they'd sooner risk a no deal so they can say they weren't to blame for loosing the fishing.

 

The UK, if not careful, would be under the EU heel. And how some member states would revel in that. 

Pure speculation.

[Rookiescot]

14 minutes ago, David gilbert said:

Boris just tell Merkel if you dont play ball you want to see the tariffs we are gonna put on Audi bmw Volkswagen Porsche mercedes etc and macron there our fishing rights or no more wine cheese citroens peugots etc, as far as I can see, they need us a lot more than we need them, tell them like it is or tell them to fuxx off boris

Do we have to change our name to West Korea as well?

[Moo 2]

There is still time to change their mind. All they have to do is ask to be forgiven for all the troubles

they have created during the past 4 years and that they want to be reinstated with the EU and also

they are prepared to join the Euro Club. So simple!

I am convinced the EU would consider the offer and would have an answer in, says, 4 years time.

 

" I drink to make other people more interesting "    Louis Pasteur

[Snow Leopard]

On 7/22/2020 at 6:28 AM, stephenterry said:

It probably doesn't matter one iota as this government, headed by a muppet, is capable of mismanaging everything from the Coronavirus, the NHS, the Care home deaths, their own backbenchers, Russian infiltration, and the economy - which will be funded by the taxpayer for decades after. 

 

It's a pity that Starmer won't be in Downing St until winning the 2024 election- or hopefully earlier if a no confidence vote is successful. As for fishing rights who'd want to risk their health by consuming polluted fish anyway? 

 

England - I'm sad to say is currently a waste of space... 

Maybe Starmer can mend everything that is wrong with the UK by putting a request in to Jim'll Fix It.  

[RuamRudy]

1 hour ago, englishoak said:

 

How Ironic that something you so desire is wrong when its achieved by another... those that can do, those that cannot only complain about those that do. 

 

One word... jealousy.

Please don't deflect - you said a tangible benefit was

 

1 hour ago, englishoak said:

Self determination.

and then you completely ignore the fact that your elected representative voted to have ZERO self determination in the future of Brexit. With an 80 seat majority, what on earth could justify such a weak, pathetic move as that? 

[RuamRudy]

8 minutes ago, Snow Leopard said:

Maybe Starmer can mend everything that is wrong with the UK by putting a request in to Jim'll Fix It.  

But ol' Jim was close and personal friend of the Tories, not Labour.

[Surelynot]

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/everything-david-lammy-said-in-this-speech-about-brexit-has-come-true/22/07/#.XxkXoyA9qXQ.whatsapp

Brexit to a T

Edited July 23, 2020 by Surelynot

[JonnyF]

55 minutes ago, Rookiescot said:

Its is you who wants it both ways.

First of all you claim you want WTO rules because most of the worlds trade is done via WTO rules.

Then you say you want trade deals.

You guys no longer flip flop. You have all started to flop flip ????.

 

Putting words in my mouth again.

 

My stance has always been that FTA's are desirable. But that WTO works perfectly fine and is no disaster and can be used while said trade deals are being agreed. WTO is not a "cliff edge", it's used for the majority of the world's trade. The EU also uses it for a great deal of trade.

[welovesundaysatspace]

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

I have checked. You are wrong again.

 

I said I have no worries trading with the EU under WTO rules since most trade is done under WTO rules. This is correct 

 

https://fullfact.org/online/how-much-trade-wto-terms/

No, that’s not true. In fact, even the same source you’re quoting states that most countries trade with the EU not under WTO rules but have some sort of trade arrangement. 
 

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

 

You said "Only one country trades ONLY under WTO rules". 

 

That was a strawman argument, since I wasn't claiming we'd trade with everyone under WTO rules,

You claimed that most of the world’s trade is done under WTO rules. Refuting that claim is not “a strawman argument”. I simply pointed out that your statement is not correct. 

 

2 hours ago, JonnyF said:

just that I wasn't concerned doing that with the EU until they stop sulking and agreed a deal.

 

Got it now? You're welcome.

 

“Of 135 non-EU full members of the World Trade Organisation, 58 currently trade with the EU under negotiated trade terms, and another 47 have preferential access to EU markets.” 
https://fullfact.org/europe/who-trades-eu-under-wto-rules/

 

Got it now? You’re welcome. 

 

 

 

[welovesundaysatspace]

 

Quote

especially the SNP when it becomes clear there is no leaving and blew the one chance they had this century ... ahh well I guess some are born to rule, others to be ruled.

Well, at least for once a Brexiteer is honest about the state of (un)democracy in Ukania. Unelected people ruling over their vassal states. I get it why the Scottish would prefer to be part of the EU instead, where everyone is a sovereign, independent member state participating in a democratic process. 
 

 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2020 by welovesundaysatspace

[bannork]

2 hours ago, stephenterry said:

I'll post my position in answer to the above extract. While I have no time for political bureaucratic government, such is the case within the EU, and support the UK government's decision to stand alone - albeit they're a load of Yankers - I also consider a strong UK economy and trade links with the EU as being essential for future and healthy growth.

 

Also, a strategic partnership with the EU in security, technology advancement, and resolution of environmental issues, such as global warming, is a 'must have' in today's global scenario. Trade agreements with the USA will be insufficient in maintaining our health standards - that's a no brainer.   

 

As a nation, we won't be able to achieve this on our own, despite Leavers attraction to automation, sovereignty (which has been retained throughout) and self determination ideology. It makes me sad to know Leavers are unable to comprehend the realities of today's world.

They're stuck in 1945. 

[tomacht8]

19 hours ago, Lormak said:

Great news!  

I know Remainers are only interested in the money - but to some of us freedom, independence and the right to determine our own destiny are more important.  Democracy has prevailed. We voted to leave and leave we will, no deals and no strings.

The salt of the Earth working classes don't care about a deal.

And any business not ready for WTO terms has only itself to blame - four years to prepare!

Very idealistic view.

if you have enough money it also means freedom, independence and to determine our own destiny.

 

The fact that the EU limits you, is a self-fiction.

 

No freedom? You can visit almost any country in the world, in the EU you could easily work, study, buy a house, do business in every EU country. 

 

If you are successful in your job or have built up your own business, you will also achieve independence. If you work freely and creatively. What you work is fun. And you make so much money that you don't need anyone else. You decide what you do.

 

That the EU hinders you in your personal life success is just a lame excuse. The framework conditions in Europe to realize your own good destiny are good.

[Snow Leopard]

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

But ol' Jim was close and personal friend of the Tories, not Labour.

Yes but Starmer was head of the DPP. 

[7by7]

8 hours ago, JonnyF said:

You seem to have the same reading comprehension issues as welovesundaysatspace. Nobody is suggesting the UK will trade ONLY on WTO terms. That would be ridiculous.

 

In fact, we've already rolled over 19 of the 40 trade deals we had as part of the EU. We are working on 18 more.

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47213842

 

We are also working on trade deals with countries the EU doesn't have deals with such as USA, India, Australia etc.

 

We also don't have to pay 100 Billion Euros into the EU wealth transfer scheme post Covid19. 

 

Plus we get to dance in Remainer tears and laugh at their strawman arguments. It's really a great time to be a Brexiteer! ????

 

I'm glad that you agree that trading only on WTO terms is ridiculous; can you convince your fellow Brexiteers of that? Most of them are repeatedly saying that we don't need a deal as we can trade on WTO terms!

 

If no deal doesn't mean no deal, what does it mean?

 

From your BBC link the top ten countries we trade with are all EU/EEA members apart from the USA and China; and we trade with those two via the agreements they have with the EU!

 

BTW, very little research will show you that, contrary to your assertion, the USA, India and Australia do each have trade arrangements with the EU and are each seeking closer, even free trade, ones. As are many other countries.

 

How many deals do we currently have for after the end of the transition period to replace the EU ones which currently cover us? From your BBC link

Quote

What trade deals has the UK done so far?

While it was an EU member, the UK was automatically part of around 40 trade deals which the EU had struck with more than 70 countries.

So far, 19 of these existing deals, covering 50 countries or territories, have been rolled over. This represents just over 8% of total UK trade.

8% of our trade. Where is the other 92% going to come from?

 

How many delegations are lining up outside Liz Truss's door to negotiate such deals?

 

 

[Mavideol]

On 7/22/2020 at 6:19 AM, Andrew65 said:

I doubt that UK Border Force people will still be based in France, border will effectively then be mid-Channel.

did you mean a floating border ... sounds good to me 555

[Mavideol]

On 7/22/2020 at 6:03 AM, webfact said:

it remains possible that a "basic" agreement could be reached if the EU gives ground in the autumn,

why does the EU has to give ground.... why the UK doesn't give ground !!!! why always blaming the EU for their lack of negotiation skills, always the same bs as the EU has to give this and that and more of this and more of that,  come on people, get real

[Mavideol]

does he needs to submit his final decision to the MP's for approval ??? as the 2019 GE required that he has to get a deal as no deal was not on the ballot and whatever deal he gets he needs approval

[7by7]

18 hours ago, Andrew65 said:

1975, there's a referendum on whether or not Brits want to stay in the EEC.

Correct.

 

18 hours ago, Andrew65 said:

If the truth were told:

In 7 or so years time there will be 3 million + people unemployed, 10 years after we joined.

Which is the fault of our membership how?

 

Remember strikes and failure to modernise which crippled firms like British Leyland and threw tens of thousands out of work? How was that the fault of the EU?

 

Remember the worldwide recession at that time? Had we not been a member then the situation could easily have been worse!

 

In 2018, the UK unemployment rate was the lowest since 1975. If EU membership causes unemployment, explain that!

 

19 hours ago, Andrew65 said:

Fast forward to the 1990's, the Soviet bloc has collapsed and most of the countries subsumed into the EU. Fast forward again, the entire population of the EU is to be given the right to come and live in the UK, all 450 million people.

The entire Soviet Bloc did not join the EU. 450 million people did not immediately move to the UK!

 

Approximately one third of immigrants to the UK come from EU member states. Brexit will have no effect on the remaining two thirds. 

 

19 hours ago, Andrew65 said:

On this day in 1975 do you vote to stay in the 'EEC' which is just a free trade area, with that knowledge

 

Freedom of movement was a fundamental right within the EEC from the very beginning; long before we joined.