German court convicts 93-year old man for Nazi crimes

[snoop1130]

German court convicts 93-year old man for Nazi crimes

 

The 93-year-old German Bruno D. accused of being an SS guard, involved in killings of thousands of prisoners, many of them Jewish, between August 1944 and April 1945, in the Stutthof Nazi concentration camp near Gdansk, Poland, arrives for his trial, in a Hamburg court room, Germany, April 14, 2020. Christian Charisius/Pool via REUTERS/Files

 

BERLIN (Reuters) - A German court convicted a 93-year old German man of helping to murder 5,232 prisoners, many Jewish, at a Nazi concentration camp in World War Two and handed him a suspended two-year sentence in one of the last cases against Nazi-era crimes.

 

Bruno D., who had been an SS guard in the Stutthof concentration camp near Gdansk in what is today Poland, was guilty of being involved in killings between August 1944 and April 1945, the Hamburg court said on Thursday.

 

He had acknowledged his presence at the camp but argued that did not amount to guilt.

 

About 65,000 people, including many Jews, were murdered or died at Stutthof, according to the museum's website. Prosecutors have argued that many were shot in the back of the head or gassed with the lethal Zyklon B gas.

 

As he was only 17 or 18 years old at the time of the crimes, he was subject to youth sentencing guidelines. Prosecutors had called for a three-year prison sentence.

 

In his final testimony to the court earlier this week, Bruno D. apologised for the suffering victims went through but stopped short of taking responsibility, German media reported.

 

"I would like to apologise to all the people who have gone through this hell of insanity and to their relatives and survivors," he told the court this week, broadcaster NDR and many other media outlets reported.

 

The defendant's frail health has meant that court sessions were limited to two to three hours per day.

 

Although the number of suspects is dwindling due to old age, prosecutors are still trying to bring individuals to justice. A landmark conviction in 2011 opened the way to more prosecutions as it was the first time that working in a camp was sufficient grounds for culpability, with no proof of a specific crime.

 

-- © Copyright Reuters 2020-07-23

 

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[PJPom]

This is not excusing his actions but at seventeen years old he had two choices, do as you are told or join them. Can anyone honestly say that they would have refused to do his job with the result being death, be honest, the regime he lived in had no mercy.

[MadMuhammad]

1 hour ago, PJPom said:

This is not excusing his actions but at seventeen years old he had two choices, do as you are told or join them. Can anyone honestly say that they would have refused to do his job with the result being death, be honest, the regime he lived in had no mercy.

I agree. I wouldn’t have had the courage to say no either, especially at such a young age. 
Still the worlds greatest atrocity and I applaud the unending pursuit for justice and accountability. 

[Tug]

Personally I’d need to know what kind of life he lead after ww2 17 years old caught up in that evil regime with the life experience of a 17 year old it’s a tough call if he has lead a decent life imo let the old duffer die in peace if he was an a hole off to prison 

[micmichd]

15 hours ago, PJPom said:

This is not excusing his actions but at seventeen years old he had two choices, do as you are told or join them. Can anyone honestly say that they would have refused to do his job with the result being death, be honest, the regime he lived in had no mercy.

They were volunteers in the SS.  

So he did have a choice. 

Edited July 24, 2020 by micmichd

[Jingthing]

10 minutes ago, micmichd said:

They were volunteers in the SS.  

So he did have a choice. 

Yes and there isn't any doubt that he believed the Nazi ideology to an extreme level. 

[Grumpy one]

I cant see the point of this trial

After all the time taken he gets a 2 year bond

No one was going to lock him up at his age and his medical condition

[Jingthing]

9 minutes ago, Grumpy one said:

I cant see the point of this trial

After all the time taken he gets a 2 year bond

No one was going to lock him up at his age and his medical condition

I reckon the victims would see the point. 

[bert bloggs]

I remember back in the early 70s going to stay at a friends home in Germany ,we were both young ,born after the war and were joking around about things in front of his father ,who had a go at us ,saying that so many Germans hated Hitler but were to afraid to speak out in case the SS came knocking at your door ,

[Logosone]

Dey was a mere tower guard. He had no involvement in killings whatsoever. That he is even charged with murders is an affront to justice. They changed the law in Germany in 2011 specifically so that peripheral people like Dey, who was a mere tower guard, could be prosecuted.

 

It's an ideological prosecution mounted by an office which has to justify its very existence and high salaries. 

 

Soon they'll be prosecuting the 101 year old grandmothers who peeled the potatos at the camps.

[Chomper Higgot]

42 minutes ago, bert bloggs said:

I remember back in the early 70s going to stay at a friends home in Germany ,we were both young ,born after the war and were joking around about things in front of his father ,who had a go at us ,saying that so many Germans hated Hitler but were to afraid to speak out in case the SS came knocking at your door ,

That is true, and I strongly recommend Hans Falada’s book ‘Alone in Berlin’ for an insight into the oppression of Germans by the Nazis.

 

But none of that excuses those who did voluntarily join the Nazis and committed the crimes of the Nazis.

[Logosone]

12 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

But none of that excuses those who did voluntarily join the Nazis and committed the crimes of the Nazis.

 

What crime did Dey engage in though, he was a tower guard?

[Saint Nick]

Good to see all the usual suspects out, to put a spin on these crimes!

It really doesn't matter, if other murderous dictators killed other innocent people and how many!

It is also irellevant, if he was "just" a tower guard or Herr Hitler in person!

He had the objective to shoot at innocent people, should they try to escape the camp!

He was part of the machinery, that systematically killed jews, communists, social- democrats, homosexuals, sinti & roma, handicapped people and there were (luckily) some, who did not follow all the orders they were given, even if they were threatened by death!

 

 

 

[Chomper Higgot]

6 minutes ago, Logosone said:

 

What crime did Dey engage in though, he was a tower guard?

He did his bit for the Holocaust.

 

Next.

[Logosone]

2 minutes ago, Saint Nick said:

Good to see all the usual suspects out, to put a spin on these crimes!

It really doesn't matter, if other murderous dictators killed other innocent people and how many!

It is also irellevant, if he was "just" a tower guard or Herr Hitler in person!

He had the objective to shoot at innocent people, should they try to escape the camp!

He was part of the machinery, that systematically killed jews, communists, social- democrats, homosexuals, sinti & roma, handicapped people and there were (luckily) some, who did not follow all the orders they were given, even if they were threatened by death!

 

 

 

Of course it matters, he didn't even know at the time what was going on at the camp behind closed doors. He was just a tower guard. 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Logosone

[Saint Nick]

Just now, Chomper Higgot said:

He did his bit for the Holocaust.

 

Next.

Oh, you wait for it!

He will ride the "just a tower guard"- theory into the ground!

Homophobe, right- winger extraordinaire and now Nazi- defender!

What a guy!

[Logosone]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

He did his bit for the Holocaust.

 

Next.

He was a guard. He wasn't involved in the actual holocaust.

 

He wasn't a perpetrator, someone who killed people, or ordered people killed.

[Chomper Higgot]

2 minutes ago, Logosone said:

He was a guard. He wasn't involved in the actual holocaust.

 

He wasn't a perpetrator, someone who killed people, or ordered people killed.

Of I forgot, the victims of the Holocaust remained in the death camps of their own free will, there was nothing nor anybody preventing them from leaving.

 

Away with you and your offering excuses for Nazis.

[Mayhem11]

I think the prognosticators should take a lesson from this thread ie there but for the grace of God go I. No one really knows how they would behave under the Nazi regime. 

[Logosone]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Of I forgot, the victims of the Holocaust remained in the death camps of their own free will, there was nothing nor anybody preventing them from leaving.

 

Away with you and your offering excuses for Nazis.

Being in a camp is not a war crime last time I checked. Lots of Germans, British, Americans, Russians were held in camps. 

 

The holocaust refers to killings. Dey was not involved in any killings. 

 

You can see his suspended sentence shows even the judges didn't buy into this crazy expansion of perpetrators.

[sanuk711]

19 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Every Nazi in it played their part.

 

Every part had its place in the killings.

Every Nazi in it played their part.----But every German wasn't a Nazi

 

Once again I don't want to be (and I am not) writing in defense of the Third Reich--- but with that change in law,

What would you feel would be an appropriate sentence for someone who delivered eggs/the newspapers 5 times a week to the camp.

[Logosone]

14 minutes ago, Mayhem11 said:

I think the prognosticators should take a lesson from this thread ie there but for the grace of God go I. No one really knows how they would behave under the Nazi regime. 

There was a war on. Do you think you'd have a choice as to whether you accept an assignment or not?

 

You do realise people were shot in those days for refusing orders?

[Baerboxer]

2 hours ago, micmichd said:

They were volunteers in the SS.  

So he did have a choice. 

 

At 17 he'd have had years of indoctrination by the Hitler Youth and educators in the party propaganda and ideology.

 

"Volunteering" may have been suggested to him, by peer pressure or by those he perceived his mentors. 

 

Once in, he'd do as told or face dire consequences should he ever question that.

 

 

[Baerboxer]

48 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

The ‘Holocaust’ was a systematic, organized genocide machine.

 

Every Nazi in it played their part.

 

Every part had its place in the killings.

 

Only the claim after the war by many was ignorance of what was going on and that they themselves weren't really Nazis.

 

Rather like the butchery carried out by the NKVD and other Soviet agencies against the Ukrainians and others. Systematic, organized deliberate genocide. Every communist played their part.

[Baerboxer]

1 hour ago, fvw53 said:

In contrast how many Japanese war criminals were prosecuted ...except the few who were punished and hanged during US presence after the surrender in 1945?

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/japanese-war-crimes-trial-begins

 

Not many because the US thought they'd be useful in helping stop the spread of communism.

 

How many Soviet war criminals have ever been prosecuted? A very round small number.

[Logosone]

7 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

At 17 he'd have had years of indoctrination by the Hitler Youth and educators in the party propaganda and ideology.

 

"Volunteering" may have been suggested to him, by peer pressure or by those he perceived his mentors. 

 

Once in, he'd do as told or face dire consequences should he ever question that.

 

 

Dey was not a volunteer for the SS. He was conscripted into the SS at 17, as a teenager.

 

The SS also conscripted, it didn't just have volunteers.

 

'I would like to stress again that I would never have voluntarily signed up to the SS or any other unit - especially not in a concentration camp,' he said in his final statements before the court delivered the verdict.

'If I had seen an opportunity to remove myself from service, I would have done so.'

He added that he only became aware of the 'extent of the atrocities' upon hearing witness testimonies and reports. 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8552355/Nazi-concentration-camp-guard-93-spared-jail.html

[Chomper Higgot]

1 minute ago, Logosone said:

Dey was not a volunteer for the SS. He was conscripted into the SS at 17, as a teenager.

 

The SS also conscripted, it didn't just have volunteers.

 

'I would like to stress again that I would never have voluntarily signed up to the SS or any other unit - especially not in a concentration camp,' he said in his final statements before the court delivered the verdict.

'If I had seen an opportunity to remove myself from service, I would have done so.'

He added that he only became aware of the 'extent of the atrocities' upon hearing witness testimonies and reports. 

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8552355/Nazi-concentration-camp-guard-93-spared-jail.html

His guard tower must have been upwind of the well documented stench of the death camps.

 

And who knows, he might never have talked to any of the other Nazi guards while there.

 

Unluckily for him the court didn’t believe him.

 

 

[Logosone]

22 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

His guard tower must have been upwind of the well documented stench of the death camps.

 

And who knows, he might never have talked to any of the other Nazi guards while there.

 

Unluckily for him the court didn’t believe him.

 

 

The Nazis went to great lengths to hide the killings of civilians and of course the camps were gigantic complexes that had many other purposes and activities.

 

The court clearly sided with Dey, obviously it had no option but to find him guilty of over 5000 murders simply because the German prosecutors framed the law in such a way that just working in a camp was a crime. However they merely imposed a suspended 2 year sentence for those supposed 5000 plus murders, so you can see what they really thought of it.

[n00dle]

18 hours ago, PJPom said:

This is not excusing his actions but at seventeen years old he had two choices, do as you are told or join them. Can anyone honestly say that they would have refused to do his job with the result being death, be honest, the regime he lived in had no mercy.

this is compounded by the fact that at 93, any punishment is essentially death sentence.

i also question what is achieved by trying a 93 year old man for the action of his 17 year old self.

 

is justice served in this instance, or is it just an attempt at as many convictions as possible given that in a few years time everyone who could possibly be held accountable will be dead?

 

2 hours ago, bert bloggs said:

I remember back in the early 70s going to stay at a friends home in Germany ,we were both young ,born after the war and were joking around about things in front of his father ,who had a go at us ,saying that so many Germans hated Hitler but were to afraid to speak out in case the SS came knocking at your door ,

thats kinda what fascism is all about, outright opposition was not an option.

my grandfather was a soldier (thankfully in hindsight not luftwaffe), was conscripted, and not a nazi per se . he spent his time on the Russian front and suffered the consequences of that environment for the rest of his life, missing fingers due to frostbite among them. I truly cannot imagine who he might have become has he been assigned elsewhere. He always said neither could he and that his fingers were a small price to pay.

This is not to say that any particular part of the german army was "clean" but given the environment im sure many individuals crossed lines they would rather not have in the interests of survival.

Edited July 24, 2020 by n00dle

[Logosone]

6 minutes ago, n00dle said:

 

 

is justice served in this instance, or is it just an attempt at as many convictions as possible given that in a few years time everyone who could possibly be held accountable will be dead?

It's not about justice.

 

It's about maintaining the jobs of the snappily named "Central Office of the State Justice Administrations for the Investigation of National Socialist Crimes" for as long as possible, with their high salaries and pensions. Because they know they can't drag it out forever. So they come up with ever more inventive ways to generate more and more cases. To drag out the taxpayer funded gravytrain for as long as possible. After all they have fantastic salaries and who wants to give that up?