It's Getting Worse...More Shops Closing Down

[newnative]

29 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I won't dispute your opinion as regards LOS as a whole, but Pattaya certainly had less western bottoms on bar stools compared to previous decades. Also the night market area in Chiang Mai seemed pretty devoid of western tourists. Perhaps the loss of westerners in those areas were compensated for by an increase in areas I never visited.

   I'm not sure citing statistics would be considered an 'opinion'.  As far as fewer 'western bottoms on bar stools', it might be a combination of more bars and more venues on offer all over Pattaya, as Pattaya has grown so much, coupled with a changing demographic of western tourists.   UK tourists, for example, were up 4.97% between 2015 and 2019 but perhaps fewer were bar types and more ended up at T21--or, as you mentioned, other areas altogether.   

[Yellowtail]

18 hours ago, newnative said:

   I'm not sure citing statistics would be considered an 'opinion'.  As far as fewer 'western bottoms on bar stools', it might be a combination of more bars and more venues on offer all over Pattaya, as Pattaya has grown so much, coupled with a changing demographic of western tourists.   UK tourists, for example, were up 4.97% between 2015 and 2019 but perhaps fewer were bar types and more ended up at T21--or, as you mentioned, other areas altogether.   

Do you have statistics for the last ten or twenty years showing the demographic breakdown of tourists visiting Thailand?

Anyone that believes  that as a percentage western  tourism is not  down is delusional.  As a percentage, there are absolutely more Chinese, Russian and Indian tourists than there were 10-20 years ago. Changes in visa requirements may have had much to do with this.

If tourism is up 10% and western tourism is only up 5% western tourism is effectively down. 

[Yellowtail]

18 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

I, like most Thais utterly despise the army, at this stage. From my point of view, the army has infected all areas of government, from top to bottom, with copious amounts of xenophobia and racism. It has had a negative effect on the tourism experience. From immigration to virtually anything to do with local, state and federal government. Plus, the highly toxic and regressive army is doing nothing to improve the quality of life here. And I do mean nothing. They are the nothing men. 

 

I do agree the quality of tourists coming here was declining prior to the army seizing power. 

Aside from getting their passport stamped, what interaction do tourists have with immigration?

Unless they get arrested, robbed or sick, what interaction do tourists have with the state, local and federal governments? 

[sandyf]

On 9/2/2020 at 1:05 AM, Poet said:

This thread is about the irreperable damage being done to a certain category of businesses, catering to certain categories of customer, and which tend to cluster in certain areas, and which primarily serve the needs of the members of this forum.

Quite , different areas - different outcomes.

There is a village near us that sits alongside a main road, used to be about a mile from one end to the other but since the pandemic started it has more than doubled in length with new shops and restaurants having been built up.

Bit of a pain for us as it is on the way to the airport and has become a major blockage with all the additional vehicles and people milling about.

My wife says it is people that have returned and now invested in the area. If that is the case, and I doubt we are the only area, then the tourist industry could have a problem restaffing when the time comes.

[Olmate]

14 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Aside from getting their passport stamped, what interaction do tourists have with immigration?

Unless they get arrested, robbed or sick, what interaction do tourists have with the state, local and federal governments? 

Same for expats  who pay intermediary to do their extensions,reports etc.  and don’t have any contact with officialdom for a few extra dollars! 

[Wongkitlo]

20 hours ago, spidermike007 said:

I, like most Thais utterly despise the army, at this stage. From my point of view, the army has infected all areas of government, from top to bottom, with copious amounts of xenophobia and racism. It has had a negative effect on the tourism experience. From immigration to virtually anything to do with local, state and federal government. Plus, the highly toxic and regressive army is doing nothing to improve the quality of life here. And I do mean nothing. They are the nothing men. 

 

I do agree the quality of tourists coming here was declining prior to the army seizing power. 

As usual  they are totally incompetent. The vaccine rollout seems beyond their ability, the tourist schemes are beset by fraud and are directed at large companies and middle to higher  class Thais. The small businesses and the poor get nothing.

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, Olmate said:

Same for expats  who pay intermediary to do their extensions,reports etc.  and don’t have any contact with officialdom for a few extra dollars! 

I'm too cheap to pay someone else to go to immigration for me, but every time I go they seem reasonably pleasant to me. Were it a big PITA I would pay someone.

The police also generally seem okay to me as to the officials and employees I have come in contact with at the DLT, Social Security, BOI, EGAT, PEA, schools and hospitals.   

I have come into a number of a-holes but, but they seem pretty widely  distributed...

[Yellowtail]

2 hours ago, Wongkitlo said:

As usual  they are totally incompetent. The vaccine rollout seems beyond their ability, the tourist schemes are beset by fraud and are directed at large companies and middle to higher  class Thais. The small businesses and the poor get nothing.

Yes, it always "them". "They" are totally incompetent  everywhere. It is only "we" that are competent. Unfortunately, "we" are too busy  playing on the internet to actually "do" anything. "They" always do stuff, and as  "they" are incompetent, "they" always do a lousy job, and it's up to "us" to constantly point out the incompetency of "them" what do.

[Olmate]

9 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

I'm too cheap to pay someone else to go to immigration for me, but every time I go they seem reasonably pleasant to me. Were it a big PITA I would pay someone.

The police also generally seem okay to me as to the officials and employees I have come in contact with at the DLT, Social Security, BOI, EGAT, PEA, schools and hospitals.   

I have come into a number of a-holes but, but they seem pretty widely  distributed...

As I get older it seems so pointless all the bs! 

[rott]

40 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Yes, it always "them". "They" are totally incompetent  everywhere. It is only "we" that are competent. Unfortunately, "we" are too busy  playing on the internet to actually "do" anything. "They" always do stuff, and as  "they" are incompetent, "they" always do a lousy job, and it's up to "us" to constantly point out the incompetency of "them" what do.

Try telling them that and they don't believe you/us. 

[jacko45k]

4 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Do you have statistics for the last ten or twenty years showing the demographic breakdown of tourists visiting Thailand?

I found something on Wikipedia, It did not go back as far as you cite but I agree with what you say. The numbers were quite flat from European/ Western countries, BUT as a percentage of total tourists to Thailand they were certainly going down. Those from Asian countries and India were rising substantially. 

[newnative]

27 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Do you have statistics for the last ten or twenty years showing the demographic breakdown of tourists visiting Thailand?

Anyone that believes  that as a percentage western  tourism is not  down is delusional.  As a percentage, there are absolutely more Chinese, Russian and Indian tourists than there were 10-20 years ago. Changes in visa requirements may have had much to do with this.

If tourism is up 10% and western tourism is only up 5% western tourism is effectively down. 

     I use TAT statistics from their website.  People can dispute their counting system but they do show a drop in tourist numbers in 2014, the coup year.  If they wanted to cook the numbers that would have been a good time to do it.  

     I never said western tourism increased its share of the market; only that the number of western tourists did not decrease.  If western tourism is up 5%, I don't see how that can be considered 'down'.   Yes, western tourist numbers are up less than some other demographics but that doesn't mean there are fewer western tourists than there used to be.  There are slightly more, but there are also larger percentage increases for other groups.  For example, UK was up 4.9% between 2015 and 2019.  China was up 38.5%.  They were both up, but China was up more. 

    I was responding to Thaibeachlover, who posted the very scientific observation that he was seeing fewer 'western bottoms' sitting on barstools so that meant western tourism was down.  In reality, the only slightly fewer western tourist 'bottoms' were Australian.  (Singapore also had a small decrease.)  My post was mainly meant to counteract all the posts saying that western tourism was down by huge numbers the past few years, even pre-covid.  Of course, there are more Chinese, Indian, and Russian tourists than there were 10 years ago.  But, also slightly more from most of the western countries.  That's how you go from 15.9 million tourists in 2010 to 39 million in 2019.  

[DerbyDan]

On 3/16/2021 at 6:22 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

Must be a nice time to visit Pai then.

I saw a foreigner heroin/opium addict when I was in Pai. He was speeding along the river on his moto. Long hair, no shirt. High as a kite.

There are some addict backpacker communities living up there that come in from foreign countries, or just end up there near the burmese border where stuff is moving in.

Edited March 21, 2021 by DerbyDan

[canthai55]

29 minutes ago, DerbyDan said:

I saw a foreigner heroin/opium addict when I was in Pai.

And you know this how ? Talk to him ? Witness drug use ? And you know they are which drugs ... how ?

 

[Yellowtail]

6 minutes ago, canthai55 said:

And you know this how ? Talk to him ? Witness drug use ? And you know they are which drugs ... how ?

 

Perhaps they were nodding out while riding the bike with one hand while scratching their face with the other. 

Some dopers are pretty easy to spot...

[Sticky Rice Balls]

11 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Perhaps they were nodding out while riding the bike with one hand while scratching their face with the other. 

Some dopers are pretty easy to spot...

Agreed.

[canthai55]

1 hour ago, DerbyDan said:

He was speeding along the river on his moto.

 

37 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Perhaps they were nodding out while riding the bike with one hand while scratching their face with the other.

Nodding Off - sure !!! 555

[Wongkitlo]

22 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

Yes, it always "them". "They" are totally incompetent  everywhere. It is only "we" that are competent. Unfortunately, "we" are too busy  playing on the internet to actually "do" anything. "They" always do stuff, and as  "they" are incompetent, "they" always do a lousy job, and it's up to "us" to constantly point out the incompetency of "them" what do.

Is very poetic but I can't see your point really. Do you have something against pronouns?

[Yellowtail]

22 hours ago, Olmate said:

As I get older it seems so pointless all the bs! 

Yeah, no shortage of pointless BS, but why give it (or them) so much power over you?

[Yellowtail]

10 minutes ago, Wongkitlo said:

Is very poetic but I can't see your point really....

I don't doubt that for a moment, "they" never do...

(just kidding)

 

 

Edited March 21, 2021 by Yellowtail
sp

[Wongkitlo]

4 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Yeah, no shortage of pointless BS, but why give it (or them) so much power over you?

Yes, it always "them". "They" always have power over you.. It is only "we" that should have the power.. Unfortunately, "we" are too busy  playing on the internet to actually use it.. "They" always do stuff, and as  "they" have the power , "they" always use it , and it's up to "us" to constantly point out the problem of them having the power.

[Olmate]

3 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

Yeah, no shortage of pointless BS, but why give it (or them) so much power over you?

 No power over me and I doubt over my agent either, once you use this counter measure.Its only when you travel solo you get pushed around.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 3/19/2021 at 8:17 PM, spidermike007 said:

I, like most Thais utterly despise the army, at this stage. From my point of view, the army has infected all areas of government, from top to bottom, with copious amounts of xenophobia and racism. It has had a negative effect on the tourism experience. From immigration to virtually anything to do with local, state and federal government. Plus, the highly toxic and regressive army is doing nothing to improve the quality of life here. And I do mean nothing. They are the nothing men. 

 

I do agree the quality of tourists coming here was declining prior to the army seizing power. 

IMO you protest too much about the army.

 

It has had a negative effect on the tourism experience.

Perhaps you can explain how life for the ordinary tourist in LOS is worse because of the military, specifically. I know of no such effect.

Yes, things changed, the beaches have become progressively ruined, but IMO that is because of greedy businessmen, and would have occurred under any government.

 

Most western tourists arrive on visa exempt and have a holiday during which nothing the army does affects them personally.

During my many years in LOS, apart from immigration becoming evermore difficult ( but only once a year ) I was not affected by the army in any way.

I don't know why you are having such a hard time from them.

 

BTW, it's not the army's job to improve the quality of life for the general populace. They removed a bad person from office, and IMO that was a good thing, but other than that, my life in LOS was unaffected by any of the governments or the military ( apart from renewing my visa extension once a year ).

[thaibeachlovers]

On 3/19/2021 at 8:30 PM, newnative said:

   I'm not sure citing statistics would be considered an 'opinion'.  As far as fewer 'western bottoms on bar stools', it might be a combination of more bars and more venues on offer all over Pattaya, as Pattaya has grown so much, coupled with a changing demographic of western tourists.   UK tourists, for example, were up 4.97% between 2015 and 2019 but perhaps fewer were bar types and more ended up at T21--or, as you mentioned, other areas altogether.   

I didn't quote any "statistics"- I only made an observation that there were less western tourists in Pattaya in bars than in previous decades. For all I know there are even more western tourists visiting temples and playing golf, but I doubt it.

 

BTW, anyone been in Pattaya for decades knows that there have always been too many bars for the number of customers, and IMO there were less bars before corona than previously as some bar complexes failed and closed eg the big bar development behind the Made in Thailand shop area.

 

UK tourists, for example, were up 4.97% between 2015 and 2019 but perhaps fewer were bar types and more ended up at T21--or, as you mentioned, other areas altogether.   

If they were indeed staying in Pattaya and not just passing through on the way to Samet or Chang, that could be down to bargirls going on line and punters not needing to go to bars anymore.

Other than night life, why would western tourists go to Pattaya- Bkk has more and better malls for shopping, the islands have better beaches, backpackers don't usually include Pattaya on their list of places to go to, and whatever the mayor may want, western women are not impressed with Pattaya?

Edited March 21, 2021 by thaibeachlovers

[newnative]

4 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I didn't quote any "statistics"- I only made an observation that there were less western tourists in Pattaya in bars than in previous decades. For all I know there are even more western tourists visiting temples and playing golf, but I doubt it.

 

BTW, anyone been in Pattaya for decades knows that there have always been too many bars for the number of customers, and IMO there were less bars before corona than previously as some bar complexes failed and closed eg the big bar development behind the Made in Thailand shop area.

 

UK tourists, for example, were up 4.97% between 2015 and 2019 but perhaps fewer were bar types and more ended up at T21--or, as you mentioned, other areas altogether.   

If they were indeed staying in Pattaya and not just passing through on the way to Samet or Chang, that could be down to bargirls going on line and punters not needing to go to bars anymore.

Other than night life, why would western tourists go to Pattaya- Bkk has more and better malls for shopping, the islands have better beaches, backpackers don't usually include Pattaya on their list of places to go to, and whatever the mayor may want, western women are not impressed with Pattaya?

     You seem to be interchanging Pattaya and Thailand with tourist statistics.  When I say that UK tourists were up 4.97%, that refers to Thailand, not Pattaya.  I have not been able to find a breakdown of tourists by city.  So, UK tourists, along with other western countries except Oz were up slightly--but where they went in Thailand is anyone's guess.  As I said in my earlier post, they could be in other areas.

     The one statistic I found for Pattaya was done by Mastercard and it had Pattaya's tourist numbers up slightly from 2018 to 2019 but I didn't see any breakdown by country.  Western tourists to Pattaya may, indeed, be down--I don't know.  What I know is overall numbers for Pattaya were up, pre-covid.  The mayor says there were 15 million visitors to Pattaya in 2019, both foreign and domestic.  Apparently Pattaya had something to attract them to visit--but maybe not your bar.  For Thailand, itself, we can say that western tourists were not drastically down pre-covid, as some T-V posters have been saying, but were up slightly except for Oz. 

[Wongkitlo]

On 3/20/2021 at 2:58 PM, newnative said:

     I use TAT statistics from their website.  People can dispute their counting system but they do show a drop in tourist numbers in 2014, the coup year.  If they wanted to cook the numbers that would have been a good time to do it.  

     I never said western tourism increased its share of the market; only that the number of western tourists did not decrease.  If western tourism is up 5%, I don't see how that can be considered 'down'.   Yes, western tourist numbers are up less than some other demographics but that doesn't mean there are fewer western tourists than there used to be.  There are slightly more, but there are also larger percentage increases for other groups.  For example, UK was up 4.9% between 2015 and 2019.  China was up 38.5%.  They were both up, but China was up more. 

    I was responding to Thaibeachlover, who posted the very scientific observation that he was seeing fewer 'western bottoms' sitting on barstools so that meant western tourism was down.  In reality, the only slightly fewer western tourist 'bottoms' were Australian.  (Singapore also had a small decrease.)  My post was mainly meant to counteract all the posts saying that western tourism was down by huge numbers the past few years, even pre-covid.  Of course, there are more Chinese, Indian, and Russian tourists than there were 10 years ago.  But, also slightly more from most of the western countries.  That's how you go from 15.9 million tourists in 2010 to 39 million in 2019.  

I have a guesthouse on an island. It operates high season.. Room sales for 2018/19 were down about 15% on 2019/20.

[Yellowtail]

5 minutes ago, Wongkitlo said:

I have a guesthouse on an island. It operates high season.. Room sales for 2018/19 were down about 15% on 2019/20.

 

So what are you thinking, poor management? 

[newnative]

2 minutes ago, Wongkitlo said:

I have a guesthouse on an island. It operates high season.. Room sales for 2018/19 were down about 15% on 2019/20.

     I'm not disputing individual stories and individual data.  It's the way of the world with business.   Some businesses are up, some down.  Some succeed, some fail.  Changing demographics, changing tastes, changing buying habits, changing new technology like internet sales and, with tourism, things like Airbnb and many more condos being rented short-term will all have an impact.   Like your business, Chevrolet's auto sales in Thailand could have been down, as well, resulting in its leaving the Thai market.  One auto manufacturer's sales being down doesn't automatically translate to auto sales as a whole being down in Thailand.  

[Wongkitlo]

5 hours ago, Yellowtail said:

 

So what are you thinking, poor management? 

No I actually increased income by getting  better at selling  to the customers I had. Usually December is really busy but some of the larger resorts were complaining about only being 25% full just before Xmas. I was agreeing with Thaibrachlovers that tourism was down before Covid. Now we get sent pictures of our regular customers having fun in Spain.

[Salerno]

11 minutes ago, Wongkitlo said:

Now we get sent pictures of our regular customers having fun in Spain.

 

Sorry, not really appropriate given the topic but ...????    ????    ???? the bar stewards!