Better to learn Thai tone rules or Thai vocabulary?

[pbrock]

I have learned a lot Thai words using transliterated (Thai written in English phonetic letters). Auto autodidact. Never attended any Thai classes. Can now have most basic Thai conversation.

To learn more, I have now learned all Thai consonants and vowels. I can read easy words which already helps with understanding and pronunciation.

 

Words with Thai tone marks (mai ek, mai tho, ...) are simple. The other Thai tone rules rather overwhelming. This is what I mean:

 

I am stuck now. What would you recommend next?

Is it more easy/efficient to learn the tone rules or should I just keep learning vocabulary?

 

Many Thai people don't know the tone rules either. Obviously they still speak perfect. They just know every word with every tone and don't even think about it. Similar for my native language. While I certainly couldn't teach the rules of my native language I am yet perfectly capable of using all of these rules in practice.

 

That would speak for just learn more vocabulary, learn the right tone for each word and then after a while I also would develop an intuitive guessing the right tone by reading words?

[Tarteso]

Funny ! This pop up appears in your topic automatly in my iphone.. try it. ????

[Matzzon]

You will need to learn both to be able to understand and speak the Thai language properly.

[Oxx]

9 hours ago, pbrock said:

I am stuck now. What would you recommend next?

Is it more easy/efficient to learn the tone rules or should I just keep learning vocabulary?

Many Thai people don't know the tone rules either. Obviously they still speak perfect.

 

Let's take those points in reverse order.  The tone rules really are only a way of getting started.  When you become fairly proficient you will recognise many words and will automatically know the correct tone.  At a more advanced level one recognises patterns and can apply them to new words without any explicit thought.

 

By "learning vocabulary" I presume you mean learning the spelling of Thai words.  You will find it much easier to advance if you know the tone rules.  Otherwise you'll have to memorise the tones of each word you learn.  Also, knowing the tone rules helps you work backwards from the pronunciation to the correct spelling.

 

There's an interactive course (free) that covers the basics of reading Thai.  I think it should help you get to the next level.  

 

http://thai-notes.com/reading/index.shtml

[Scott]

Inflammatory, off-topic post reported and removed.  

 

[KeeTua]

Definitely take the time to learn the tone rules. I waited too long myself because like you I was put off by the apparent complexity of the rules . I finally created my own easy to follow (for me) cheat sheet to refer to and then it really wasn't so bad learning the rules. I was able to fit all the tone rules for each of the three consonant classes on its own small flash card and I would carry the 3 cards in a pocket to refer to when needed. I think it took a couple of weeks to get a good feel for the rules with this method.

 

Here are my cheat sheets for the 3 consonant classes. Hopefully correct if not some of the more advanced readers will likely point out any errors.

 

อักษรสูง
No tone mark---------->Rising
Ending K,P,T----------->Low
Ending short vowel--->Low
ไม้เอก   อ่     Low
ไมโท    อ้     Falling
ข ฉ ถ ฐ ผ ฝ ศ ษ ส ห
------------------------------------------------------

อักษรกลาง
No tone mark---------->Common
Ending K,P,T----------->Low
Ending short vowel--->Low
ไม้เอก  อ่   Low             ไม้ตรี      อ๊    High
ไมโท   อ้   Falling         ไม้จัตวา  อ๋    Rising
ก จ ฎ ฏ ด ต บ ป อ
------------------------------------------------------

อักษรต่ำ
No tone mark----------------------->Common
Ending K,P,T and long vowel--->Falling
Ending K,P,T and short vowel-->High
ไม้เอก    อ่      Falling
ไมโท     อ้      High
ค ฅ ฆ ง ช ซ ฌ ญ ฑ ฒ ณ
ท ธ น พ ฟ ภ ม ย ล ร ว ฬ ฮ

 

[ColeBOzbourne]

 

 

Nice job KeeTua, you beat me to it. I made something similar that works for me. The flowchart shown above is to confusing for me to easily memorize. I think each person should make what works best for them. Mine is hand-written and fits on one side of one 3 x 5 card. Just a note, KeeTua, I think on the High Consonants you are missing ฃ.

 

I broke the information into smaller parts and concentrated on memorizing one at a time. First I only memorized the nine Middle (M) Consonants and the tone rules. Once I had that I moved on to the eleven High (H) Consonants and rules. Once I knew them I didn't have to memorize the 24 Low (L) Consonants because when I see them I know they are not Middle or High. I just memorized the tone rules.

 

I have several hand written 3 x 5 cards that I keep as book markers in my Thai books. Now I only have to refer to them occasionally. Mine is one side of one card divided into three parts as follows: (I typed this up quickly, if there are mistakes at least you get the idea)

 

M (9): ก จ ฎ ฏ ด ต บ ป อ

Live = Mid Tone;  Dead = Low Tone

  อ่   Low   อ๊  High   อ้ Falling    อ๋ Rising

 

H (11):ข ฃ ฉ ถ ฐ ผ ฝ ศ ษ ส ห

Live = Rising Tone;  Dead = Low Tone

อ่   Low   อ้ Falling    

  

L (24): ค ฅ ฆ ง ช ซ ฌ ญ ฑ ฒ ณ ท ธ น พ ฟ ภ ม ย ล ร ว ฬ ฮ

Live = Mid Tone;  Dead & Short = High Tone;  Dead & Long = Falling Tone

อ่ = Falling;  อ้ = High

 

 

[Natai Beach]

It is easy learning the tone rules. There are only five rules to remember.

It will take about a week if you try. Most people don’t try. And then claim it is somehow difficult.  

use this method below.
 

Out of 15 possible scenarios of tone rules, you really only need to memorize only a handful.

High and Rising tone markers will always produce high and rising tones, respectively. So you do NOT need to worry about them, or memorize anything. If you see them, you know the tone no matter what.

 

So now that leaves only Low and Falling tone markers to worry about. Low and Falling tone markers will always create Low and Falling tones respectively, except when they appear with… LOW CLASS.

I will count this as the first two tone rules you have to memorize, even though you only need to memorize only low class consonants. 

[So Low Class with Low Tone Marker creates Falling tone, and Low Class with Falling Marker creates High tone]

Now that we’ve covered the tone markers, it leaves us with what to do in the absence of tone markers.

Live Syllables and Dead Syllables are easy to distinguish. If you assume all dead syllables with no tone markers create a low tone, you then only need to worry about dead syllables with short or long vowels when they’re….You guessed it: LOW CLASS. 

[Low Class Dead Short Vowel is high and Low Class Long Vowel is Falling]

So now, with only memorizing LOW CLASS consonants, you have already learned 12 of the 15 tone scenarios.

That leaves us with only Live Syllables with no tone markers. If you assume all Live Syllables with no tone markers create a Mid tone, you’ll probably be correct most of the time. The only rule you need to remember is that High Class Live Syllables create a rising tone.

So with only memorizing Low Class Consonants, and realizing their rules change with Low Tone and Falling Tone Markers, you’ve almost mastered all the rules. Then you just realize that a High Class Live Syllable creates a rising tone, you’ve finished all the rules.

It’s worthy to point out that you never need to memorize Mid Class consonants, as when live, they’re mid, when dead, they’re low and with markers, follow the rules of the names of tone markers.

And you only need to memorize High Class for the purpose of the absence of tone markers.

It’s really the Low Class you need to memorize as Low Tone Marker changes it’s sound to Falling, and Falling Tone Marker changes it to High Tone. And of course with no Tone Marker, Dead Short Vowels are High Tones and Dead Long Vowels are Falling Tones. That’s a total of what? Five rules you need.

That’s basically only memorizing five things.
 

It takes about a week, after a month it becomes natural, you don’t even think about it.

 

 

[KeeTua]

21 minutes ago, ColeBOzbourne said:

Just a note, KeeTua, I think on the High Consonants you are missing ฃ

Darn it you're correct and too late to edit. Not a commonly used consonant so I never noticed it missing.

 

Nice job on your 3x5 cards as well, easy to understand.

[Oxx]

3 hours ago, KeeTua said:

3 hours ago, ColeBOzbourne said:

Just a note, KeeTua, I think on the High Consonants you are missing ฃ

Darn it you're correct and too late to edit. Not a commonly used consonant so I never noticed it missing.

 

In fact it's a never used consonant.  It's completely obsolete, as is ฅ.  Best ignored.

[tgeezer]

Take in everything written here but don't try to remember it.  I would refer to Natai Beach's summary on occasions where you need to. You need to learn what a dead word is if you don't already know. 
The only problem you may encounter is dead words/syllables with Low class consonant, where short vowel is third(high) tone. ใ , ไ and เอา are not short vowels so ไม is not a dead word, to make it third tone it needs ไม้โท and เทา is not third tone for example.   

Edited October 18, 2020 by tgeezer

[Ventenio]

It certainly is location specific.  North and Issan and Mae Hong Song area pretty different.  KK different than Udon Thani......I personally think learning the local dialect will produce a better experience.  Even speaking Issan in Bangkok is more fun than speaking Central Thai in Nong Khai

[GinBoy2]

In learning any tonal language its, Tones, Tones, Tones!

 

Try not to be sucked into the idea that if you learn a word, without understanding the tone it will get you anywhere.

 

I learned that lesson many years ago when I was learning Mandarin. 

 

If you don't 'get' the tones then even if you think you are pronouncing a word perfectly it may well be unintelligible.

 

It's always hard for anyone who speaks a non tonal language to get it, since for us tones merely provide emphasis or emotion, whereas in a tonal language it provides meaning 

[FalangJaiDee]

I would honestly just memorize words, patterns, and the tones involved? I'm too lazy to learn to read and write thai, and I do ok with around intermediate level 

[GinBoy2]

4 minutes ago, FalangJaiDee said:

I would honestly just memorize words, patterns, and the tones involved? I'm too lazy to learn to read and write thai, and I do ok with around intermediate level 

Well thats another interesting point.

 

Thai, compared to reading Mandarin, which I struggled with, is easy so long as you get tones, since unlike Mandarin, it is an alphabet, albeit a complex one. 

 

Thai has 44 consonant symbols, 16 vowel symbols which combine into at least 32 vowel forms and four tone diacritics

 

This why in Issan they simply transliterate Lao using Thai script into how they hear the words

[Oxx]

14 minutes ago, GinBoy2 said:

This why in Issan they simply transliterate Lao using Thai script into how they hear the words

 

That's really not what's happening.  The Pathet Lao (communists) overthrew the royalist government of Lao in 1975 and implemented language and spelling reform.  For example, they:

 

- minimized the influence of Thai
- simplified spelling so it more accurately reflected pronunciation (particularly for Indic loan words)
- eliminated the distinction between /r/ and /l/
- Virtually eliminate pronouns and particles which expressed relative status.

 

So, in Isaan they are simply using the now official standard way of writing Lao.

 

Field Marshall Plaek Phibunsongkhram attempted similar spelling reform of the Thai language in 1942.  However, it didn't "stick".  There's a brief summary of the reforms at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_spelling_reform_of_1942

[KeeTua]

2 hours ago, Oxx said:

So, in Isaan they are simply using the now official standard way of writing Lao.

I may not be understanding what you're trying to say but I've yet to see an Isaan person write using Lao script:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lao_script

 

I agree with Ginboy2:
"This why in Issan they simply transliterate Lao using Thai script into how they hear the words"

[tgeezer]

The topic seems to have changed! 

[JHicks]

On 10/17/2020 at 3:45 PM, pbrock said:

Is it more easy/efficient to learn the tone rules or should I just keep learning vocabulary?

 

Many Thai people don't know the tone rules either. Obviously they still speak perfect. They just know every word with every tone and don't even think about it. Similar for my native language. While I certainly couldn't teach the rules of my native language I am yet perfectly capable of using all of these rules in practice.

 

That would speak for just learn more vocabulary, learn the right tone for each word and then after a while I also would develop an intuitive guessing the right tone by reading words?

Not really - either you read the tones (using the tone rules), or you recognise the word and remember the tone without needing to use the tone rules. More realistically, you do both. If you didn't want to use the tone rules, you'd have to rely completely on recognising the words, but in order to learn them in the first place (complete with tones, obviously) you'd have to have some method of writing the tones down. In the long run I think it's easiest just to use the Thai method, and then you're back to learning the tone rules anyway. It's different for native speakers, because they absorbed most of the vocab effortlessly as kids, and with that foundation, they don't need to write new words down in adulthood either.

 

The tones of spoken Thai do not come from the tone rules in the flowchart, which are just spelling rules - they are part of the writing system and you can't expect to feel them out based on familiarity with spoken Thai. The phonetic system does have some tone rules of its own, and those rules you can feel out, but they don't help you much with reading. For example, you may sense that if a word gets cut off at the end it isn't going to have a mid tone, and you may even be able to narrow it down a bit more, but you won't get it down to a single tone that way, so you'll be left making an educated guess. In other cases you can't even do that, as a general feel for the language will only tell you that all five tones are possible.

 

I would say go on learning vocab but try to practise using the tone rules as you go - so assuming you are working from a transliteration, try to write the word in Thai script and see if you spell the tone correctly (sometimes there is more than one way to do it, but that doesn't need to be a huge problem). Transcribing audio can also be a good way to work on spelling the tones, assuming you have a text version to check against.

Edited October 19, 2020 by JHicks

[rak sa_ngop]

I have attended 4 language schools over the years and have observed that tones are not the biggest problem that students have to overcome. Most students get it in the end. What many students even in the most advanced classes never seem to master are the unique vowel, dipthtong and tripthong sounds of the Thai language. For some reason Thai teachers never seem to correct students so these students never get to speak Thai effectively, and are even unaware of their own poor pronunciation. Some nationalities seem to be worse than others in this area....but I wont go down that road.

[Wongkitlo]

On 10/19/2020 at 11:11 PM, JHicks said:

Not really - either you read the tones (using the tone rules), or you recognise the word and remember the tone without needing to use the tone rules. More realistically, you do both. If you didn't want to use the tone rules, you'd have to rely completely on recognising the words, but in order to learn them in the first place (complete with tones, obviously) you'd have to have some method of writing the tones down. In the long run I think it's easiest just to use the Thai method, and then you're back to learning the tone rules anyway. It's different for native speakers, because they absorbed most of the vocab effortlessly as kids, and with that foundation, they don't need to write new words down in adulthood either.

 

The tones of spoken Thai do not come from the tone rules in the flowchart, which are just spelling rules - they are part of the writing system and you can't expect to feel them out based on familiarity with spoken Thai. The phonetic system does have some tone rules of its own, and those rules you can feel out, but they don't help you much with reading. For example, you may sense that if a word gets cut off at the end it isn't going to have a mid tone, and you may even be able to narrow it down a bit more, but you won't get it down to a single tone that way, so you'll be left making an educated guess. In other cases you can't even do that, as a general feel for the language will only tell you that all five tones are possible.

 

I would say go on learning vocab but try to practise using the tone rules as you go - so assuming you are working from a transliteration, try to write the word in Thai script and see if you spell the tone correctly (sometimes there is more than one way to do it, but that doesn't need to be a huge problem). Transcribing audio can also be a good way to work on spelling the tones, assuming you have a text version to check against.

I have sort of done as you suggest over the years. I learnt a lot of words using English translations and  signs for rising etc. I learnt gaw gai by rote and the verbs and could read a bit and understand the tone rules. Then I virtually gave up for 2 years.  I am now revisiting it mainly with YouTube. I have been impressed by Stu Ray Jay for a while. I am now following his suggestion of just learning the 28 or so  most important gaw gai characters in groups according to their class. He has a system of mapping the tongue as it moves around the mouth and opening and closing the throat. For example the middle (or normal class) are said with your throat closed or constricted. I also learnt tones by his system .It sounds like I am doing an ad for him but am just stealing his info from YouTube.

[JHicks]

1 hour ago, Wongkitlo said:

I have been impressed by Stu Ray Jay for a while. I am now following his suggestion of just learning the 28 or so  most important gaw gai characters in groups according to their class. He has a system of mapping the tongue as it moves around the mouth and opening and closing the throat

 

There's something I don't like about that guy, but he does usually know his stuff. Maybe have a look at the phonemic approach to consonant classes (that's a link - I'm told they don't always show up). It's not too hard to sort the consonants into "mid", "low" and "has both high and low versions" based on sound.

 

The first part of the alphabet is organised by place of articulation, i.e. where the tongue is in the mouth. Pretty much all Indic scripts are organised that way, and have been for centuries. Useful to know but not SJR's idea!

 

For me something clicked when I stopped thinking of the tones as a sort of finishing touch that went on top of the syllable, and realised that they are as much a part of the syllable as the consonants and vowels. After that they stuck a lot easier and I didn't have to rely on having them written down nearly as much.

[Delight]

I struggled to remember the tones rules as per any list.

Generally I have more success in remembering charts.

So I distilled the Tone rules and ended up with 2 charts

 

I attach them . Just cross reference the vertical and the horizontal

The only place to store them is in your memory

 

Edited November 5, 2020 by Delight

[jak2002003]

I just can't get my brain to be interested to remember the tone rules by memory or charts. 

 

I guess I learnt what I know so far with the Thai language the way a Thai child learns it.

 

I mostly learnt to speak Thai with my Thai friends informally when socialising. Soon learnt the correct tone for a word through trial and error...and getting a few laughs when I made mistakes. 

 

I became able to have a decent conversation and am understood and can understand Thai people in most everyday  situations now, and in topics and hobbies that interest me I always surprise Thai people...and farangs that can speak Thai well...with the vocab I know. 

 

I learnt to read Thai (which I put off for years as it looked so difficult...but was actually fun and easy) and I just know the tone of the word already...so don't have to worry about the tone marks or rules, unless it's a word I don't know.

 

Only problem I have is my Bangkok Thai is often accidently mixed up with my Lanna / Chiang Mai Thai, which is confusing for Thai people not from the North AND I have a strong Northern English accident that mades a few words impossible for me to say with the correct tone even though I know what it should be....which is dam frustrating!!!! 

Edited November 5, 2020 by jak2002003

[KhaoNiaw]

It depends what kind of leaner you are more than anything. If you've learned Thai spelling, then learn the pronunciation rules as well. If you're purely a speaker, the spelling rules aren't going to help and if you need to be able to pick up the sounds and go for a more natural method. It'll still help you to think about whether sounds are rising, falling or both etc. but the spelling won't guide you. Central Thai is one accent but there are many many others. But for Thai the spelling rules are based on (official Thai) Central Thai and not vice versa.

The people talking about Lao or Isaan probably don't realize that Isaan has 30+ variations and Laos is different again. My girlfriend is from Laos and she knows immediately if someone is an Isaan Thai, and also recognizes if they're northern Lao or southern Lao etc.. If you watch Lao Star TV, official Lao is not that different from official Thai and you'll understand a lot. 

So if you can pick up the vocabulary and do a decent (enough) job with the tones it's fine. If you want to learn all the rules and apply them that way, then that's the way to go.  Just as with English, accents basically tell people where you're from, and you'll always have 'foreign' traces. Nothing wrong with that. 

[KhaoNiaw]

Just now, KhaoNiaw said:

It depends what kind of leaner you are more than anything. If you've learned Thai spelling, then learn the pronunciation rules as well. If you're purely a speaker, the spelling rules aren't going to help and if you need to be able to pick up the sounds and go for a more natural method. It'll still help you to think about whether sounds are rising, falling or both etc. but the spelling won't guide you. Central Thai is one accent but there are many many others. But for Thai the spelling rules are based on (official Thai) Central Thai pronunciation and not vice versa (pronunciation based on spelling).

The people talking about Lao or Isaan probably don't realize that Isaan has 30+ variations and Laos is different again. My girlfriend is from Laos and she knows immediately if someone is an Isaan Thai, and also recognizes if they're northern Lao or southern Lao etc.. If you watch Lao Star TV, official Lao is not that different from official Thai and you'll understand a lot. 

So if you can pick up the vocabulary and do a decent (enough) job with the tones it's fine. If you want to learn all the rules and apply them that way, then that's the way to go.  Just as with English, accents basically tell people where you're from, and you'll always have 'foreign' traces. Nothing wrong with that. 

 

[Wongkitlo]

On 10/26/2020 at 1:45 PM, JHicks said:

 

There's something I don't like about that guy, but he does usually know his stuff. Maybe have a look at the phonemic approach to consonant classes (that's a link - I'm told they don't always show up). It's not too hard to sort the consonants into "mid", "low" and "has both high and low versions" based on sound.

 

The first part of the alphabet is organised by place of articulation, i.e. where the tongue is in the mouth. Pretty much all Indic scripts are organised that way, and have been for centuries. Useful to know but not SJR's idea!

 

For me something clicked when I stopped thinking of the tones as a sort of finishing touch that went on top of the syllable, and realised that they are as much a part of the syllable as the consonants and vowels. After that they stuck a lot easier and I didn't have to rely on having them written down nearly as much.

Thanks. Is actually pretty similar  to his way of showing it. I stopped learning for a while but coming back it has made a lot more sense and  is easier to learn. ????

[JHicks]

15 hours ago, KhaoNiaw said:

...

Central Thai is one accent but there are many many others. But for Thai the spelling rules are based on (official Thai) Central Thai and not vice versa.

The people talking about Lao or Isaan probably don't realize that Isaan has 30+ variations and Laos is different again. My girlfriend is from Laos and she knows immediately if someone is an Isaan Thai, and also recognizes if they're northern Lao or southern Lao etc.. If you watch Lao Star TV, official Lao is not that different from official Thai and you'll understand a lot. 

...

Just as with English, accents basically tell people where you're from, and you'll always have 'foreign' traces. Nothing wrong with that. 

I'm quite interested in different Thai accents but haven't really been able to get to grips with them. Any time the subject comes up, Thais seem to talk about using different words rather than pronouncing the same words differently. Apparently the southern accent is supposed to be clipped (I haven't been down there but have heard they swallow the ends of their words) whereas the northern accent is supposed to be slow and drawn out. That's a start I guess but pretty vague. What I've noticed myself is that there's a lot of variation in the tone shapes. Sometimes a word will just have a different tone, but then the same tone will come out differently depending on the region. I haven't found anything that would tell me e.g. an Isaan mid tone goes like this, a southern falling tone goes like this... so I haven't really been able to dig into this much.

[Oxx]

14 hours ago, JHicks said:

I haven't found anything that would tell me e.g. an Isaan mid tone goes like this, a southern falling tone goes like this

There's a book "From Ancient Thai to Modern Dialects" by J. Marvin Brown which includes dozens of charts showing different regional profiles of tones across Thailand.  It was published in 1962, so I'm not sure how well it describes today's tones.  I suspect that wireless and television will have helped standardise tones to some extent.  Also, since then the central Thai "high" tone has changed from being a high tone to a mid-rising one, so tones apparently evolve rather quickly.

[Bredbury Blue]

On 10/26/2020 at 11:23 AM, Wongkitlo said:

I have sort of done as you suggest over the years. I learnt a lot of words using English translations and  signs for rising etc. I learnt gaw gai by rote and the verbs and could read a bit and understand the tone rules. Then I virtually gave up for 2 years.  I am now revisiting it mainly with YouTube. I have been impressed by Stu Ray Jay for a while. I am now following his suggestion of just learning the 28 or so  most important gaw gai characters in groups according to their class. He has a system of mapping the tongue as it moves around the mouth and opening and closing the throat. For example the middle (or normal class) are said with your throat closed or constricted. I also learnt tones by his system .It sounds like I am doing an ad for him but am just stealing his info from YouTube.

 

I'm impressed by SRJ, watched lots of his stuff.

 

I printed off his 'Phonetic Map of the Human Mouth' chart which I often refer to. I memorised the consonants by class lines by line. I found his chart very simplistic and helpful.

 

I made my own table of tones as others have done. Took me an afternoon to memorise,  and then I spent time practicing using it on words to work out each words tone.

 

I found this little 'game' of choosing the class of each consonant fun and very useful.

http://www.thai-language.com/id/838480

 

Once I learnt the script and the tones enough to read basic stuff I was appalled at how I'd been wrongly pronouncing names or things for years. Check out this list of provinces, almost all wrongly transliterated meaning all of us non-Thai pronounce them wrongly - some are way out.

http://www.thai-language.com/id/589833

 

It's definitely worth the effort of learning Thai script and tones, and leave the transliteration nonsense behind.