Sweden's pandemic experiment ends amid spiking coronavirus cases

[ExpatOilWorker]

14 minutes ago, FarFlungFalang said:

It is now commonly accepted that the virus has airborne capabilities,so instead of a cricket ball and grain of rice think of a cricket ball and grains of dust in a wind storm,the cricket ball hardly moves at all but the dust can travel immense distances and can get into the tiniest of cracks and crevasses.So your statement that the virus needs droplets to travel is completely false.You really need to take Jeff2's advice and get a better source.   

 

The outdoor lifestyle in Thailand's +30 C climate might be a big factor in the limited spread of the virus here.

 

https://www.dhs.gov/science-and-technology/sars-calculator

 

 

[FarFlungFalang]

4 minutes ago, ExpatOilWorker said:

 

The outdoor lifestyle in Thailand's +30 C climate might be a big factor in the limited spread of the virus here.

 

https://www.dhs.gov/science-and-technology/sars-calculator

 

 

I agree.Maybe they should lock people outside and see how that goes!Locking people inside doesn't seem to have any statistically relevant impact as yet.

[FarFlungFalang]

20 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Yeah, trying to compare dust to water droplets is such an easy stretch!

Do you deny that the virus is airborne and floats in the air?I didn't take you for a denier Jeff you need to keep up to date and try for some more recent research.Look into the sky and see the clouds made of tiny (some not so tiny) water droplets floating in the breeze for many a mile!

Edited December 16, 2020 by FarFlungFalang

[Jeffr2]

20 minutes ago, FarFlungFalang said:

Do you deny that the virus is airborne and floats in the air?I didn't take you for a denier Jeff you need to keep up to date and try for some more recent research.Look into the sky and see the clouds made of tiny (some not so tiny) water droplets floating in the breeze for many a mile!

Stop denying the severity of this pandemic, the proven help of the mask, etc.  You're not going to win that argument.

[FarFlungFalang]

3 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Stop denying the severity of this pandemic, the proven help of the mask, etc.  You're not going to win that argument.

Just answer the question is the virus airborne?

[Jeffr2]

10 minutes ago, FarFlungFalang said:

Just answer the question is the virus airborne?

You're not aware of that?

[FarFlungFalang]

1 minute ago, Jeffr2 said:

You're not aware of that?

I am aware of that Jeff but you seem to be suggesting that it isn't.Someone suggested earlier that the virus needs to be in water droplets to travel any distance and suggests that the distance it can travel is short but it turns out that it can travel in water vapour from our breath and can travel much further than previously admitted.You erroneously suggested that I was comparing droplets to dust when I was comparing water vapour to dust which is a better analogy to make than a grain of rice or a droplet of water.If the virus is carried in water vapour it makes it much harder for masks to be effective which is why people wearing masks are still getting infected and infecting others whilst wearing masks.

[rabas]

1 hour ago, FarFlungFalang said:

I am aware of that Jeff but you seem to be suggesting that it isn't.Someone suggested earlier that the virus needs to be in water droplets to travel any distance and suggests that the distance it can travel is short but it turns out that it can travel in water vapour from our breath and can travel much further than previously admitted.You erroneously suggested that I was comparing droplets to dust when I was comparing water vapour to dust which is a better analogy to make than a grain of rice or a droplet of water.If the virus is carried in water vapour it makes it much harder for masks to be effective which is why people wearing masks are still getting infected and infecting others whilst wearing masks.

It's been shown that un-inhaled cigarette smoke is almost identical in size and size distribution to respired particles from our lungs (see link). Most are smaller that 1μm peaking about 0.25μm. So, light a cigarette, set it in an ashtray and watch the smoke. Wave your hand in the air. How long does smoke hang in the air?

 

The aerosol probably evaporates very quickly and becomes even lighter. That's why I will wear a mask even in an empty lift. Someone stood there breathing before me. 

 

So airborne will make a pandemic worse and requires better masks. Even so, sneezes are probably still a major transmission vector.

 

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0095852260900374

Edited December 16, 2020 by rabas

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, FarFlungFalang said:

I agree with the following quote from one of the linked articles.

 

"Carroll cautions that this was not a randomized, controlled study and there could have been other factors at play (such as more physical distancing in social situations and fewer large gatherings) in the counties that were enforcing masks."

 

Yes. They probably do help, but possibly not in the way people think.  I still think it's more behavioral- it predicts someone who is aware of the need for good personal standards, and this person will be more mindful of social distancing, etc, and won't be out and about if he has any sort of infection.  Worth doing imo but I believe it is really not a very significant factor in this pandemic, when compared with quarantine and social distancing.

 

 

Edited December 16, 2020 by mommysboy

[Jeffr2]

10 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

Yes. They probably do help, but possibly not in the way people think.  I still think it's more behavioral- it predicts someone who is aware of the need for good personal standards, and this person will be more mindful of social distancing, etc, and won't be out and about if he has any sort of infection.  Worth doing imo but I believe it is really not a very significant factor in this pandemic, when compared with quarantine and social distancing.

The CDC, WHO and pretty much every medical expert don't agree with you.  Same with Sweden, thus, their turnaround on this issue.

 

Masks work.  Wear them.

[FritsSikkink]

On ‎12‎/‎8‎/‎2020 at 9:53 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Seems that lockdowns don't work either, as it didn't stop all those other countries getting second wave.

It did in Thailand.

[FarFlungFalang]

9 minutes ago, FritsSikkink said:

It did in Thailand.

"Subject to change without notice" as they say.

[Jeffr2]

3 hours ago, FarFlungFalang said:

"Subject to change without notice" as they say.

In the meantime, it's proven lockdowns work. Just ask the Swedish government.

[Rimmer]

A troll post has been removed

[placeholder]

All this debate about the effectiveness of masks on an individual level is trumped by numerous epidemiological studies which show their effectiveness in protecting others. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7219391/

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/341363533_Epidemiology_reveals_mask_wearing_by_the_public_is_crucial_for_COVID-19_control

[FarFlungFalang]

4 hours ago, rabas said:

The aerosol probably evaporates very quickly and becomes even lighter. That's why I will wear a mask even in an empty lift. Someone stood there breathing before me. 

You are still sucking in air and anything in that air including lungful of viral load as the mask may catch some but most will just flow with the air going into your lungs.Like Mrs Marsh was fond of saying "like liquid into chalk it gets in".

[FarFlungFalang]

31 minutes ago, placeholder said:

All this debate about the effectiveness of masks on an individual level is trumped by numerous epidemiological studies which show their effectiveness in protecting others. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7219391/

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02801-8

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/341363533_Epidemiology_reveals_mask_wearing_by_the_public_is_crucial_for_COVID-19_control

Lots of guessing in those studies of infection curves and numbers which show nothing but make some rather large assumptions and draw some anecdotal conclusions.I didn't see any mention of these studies being peer reviewed either so I would put to much stock into these studies too many long bows being drawn.

[placeholder]

2 hours ago, FarFlungFalang said:

Lots of guessing in those studies of infection curves and numbers which show nothing but make some rather large assumptions and draw some anecdotal conclusions.I didn't see any mention of these studies being peer reviewed either so I would put to much stock into these studies too many long bows being drawn.

First off, here's  a link to the peer review certification

PLOS ONE: Mask or no mask for COVID-19: A public health and market study

Here's a link to another peer reviewed study

Association of Country-wide Coronavirus Mortality with Demographics, Testing, Lockdowns, and Public Wearing of Masks | The American Journal of Tropical Medicine and Hygiene (ajtmh.org)

 

 

[FritsSikkink]

8 hours ago, FarFlungFalang said:

"Subject to change without notice" as they say.

What ever, do you actually live here or just try to stir up sht

[placeholder]

In Sweden, Infections and Calls for a Lockdown Are Rising

Intensive-care beds in hospitals in the Stockholm region are all currently occupied, Bjorn Eriksson, a regional health director, said at a news conference on Tuesday.

“We are far beyond 100 percent of capacity in intensive care. We are approaching almost double the number of available spaces,” he said.

In Sweden, Infections and Calls for a Lockdown Are Rising - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

Edited December 16, 2020 by Scott

[ChaiyaTH]

On 12/8/2020 at 10:14 AM, cooked said:

Everyone who is going to get Covid is going to get covid sooner or later. They will all become 'cases', very few will die. Remember that this was supposed to be about not overloading the health services? I believe that all the emergency hospitals that were built or shipped in initially (UK, USA, China and Russia off hand) have been removed. 

Meanwhile, for some mysterious reason, deaths from 'flu complications have virtually disappeared. 

 

To not forget a lack of pneumonia deaths too, usually around 5 million a year.

[placeholder]

50 minutes ago, ChaiyaTH said:

To not forget a lack of pneumonia deaths too, usually around 5 million a year.

Sure. Sweden's ICU's are being stressed because of an inexplicable rise in pneumonia cases? Laughable.

[placeholder]

 

 

[simple1]

7 hours ago, ChaiyaTH said:

To not forget a lack of pneumonia deaths too, usually around 5 million a year.

 

Incorrect - check with WHO - annual flu deaths are approx 500k p.a. worldwide. In less than a year Covid deaths have now reached approx 1.65 million worldwide

[Jeffr2]

13 hours ago, FarFlungFalang said:

Lots of guessing in those studies of infection curves and numbers which show nothing but make some rather large assumptions and draw some anecdotal conclusions.I didn't see any mention of these studies being peer reviewed either so I would put to much stock into these studies too many long bows being drawn.

As said by a classic covid denier.

[Jeffr2]

8 hours ago, placeholder said:

In Sweden, Infections and Calls for a Lockdown Are Rising

Intensive-care beds in hospitals in the Stockholm region are all currently occupied, Bjorn Eriksson, a regional health director, said at a news conference on Tuesday.

“We are far beyond 100 percent of capacity in intensive care. We are approaching almost double the number of available spaces,” he said.

In Sweden, Infections and Calls for a Lockdown Are Rising - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

But, but, but...we need our freedom!  Let the elderly and sick sit in basements while we go out and play!

[oompie69]

On 12/8/2020 at 10:55 AM, johng said:

Just a thought but isn't it winter in Sweden now ?  isn't that normally the time when hospitals are stretched to their limits ?

Come on! You know this is an inconvenient fact to mention. It spoils the whole narrative. 

[placeholder]

3 hours ago, oompie69 said:

Come on! You know this is an inconvenient fact to mention. It spoils the whole narrative. 

Facts are things that are true. But it is false to contend that every winter Sweden's ICU capacity is stretched to its limit. What' more this year the Stockholm region is stretched to beyond its limit as the health director of the region has revealed.

[cmarshall]

Here's an interesting opinion piece from a Swedish writer offering an explanation of why the Swedes adopted such a bone-headed approach and why they have stuck to it for so long.

 

 

Why did Sweden adopt this approach, and why was it not rapidly abandoned in April when it was clear that our neighbors were doing far better than we were? 

 

While there are many reasons, I believe a significant part of the answer lies in Swedish exceptionalism. Whereas American exceptionalism is about America’s unique place in the world, Swedish exceptionalism is about being immune to any disasters that may happen in the rest of the world.

 

To understand this idea, you need to understand our history: We survived two world wars unscathed, two wars in which all of our neighbors were partially or completely occupied. While every generation of Americans has suffered at least one major war, Sweden has not fought a war since 1814. The last time Sweden engaged in armed conflict, James Madison was president of the United States. 

 

https://thedispatch.com/p/covid-19-and-the-failure-of-swedish

[Jeffr2]

The King has spoken.  The experiment failed.