After the White House, Trump faces uncertain future and legal threats

[Caldera]

Maybe the spirits of American COVID-19 victims will come to haunt him and he'll jump off a ledge at Trump Tower. Many things could happen, my prediction might not even be the whackiest one!

 

[joecoolfrog]

5 hours ago, rgraham said:

Yesterday marked a great step forward for bureaucrats and socialists, a huge leap off the cliff for 
Americans!

Oh Gawd , its the end of days !

It takes a ' special ' kind of logic to mourn a wanabe dictator who has trashed the reputation of ones nation.

Its like surviving a hurricane then worrying that it might rain a little when you go to the beach.

[Jingthing]

8 minutes ago, Bkktodd said:

New york state AG will file charges once he is no longer president. Lock up  his grifter family too. 

I won't put odds on that but that is a very serious threat to the soon to be ex-president. So there are three ways to defend against that:

 

The usual way with lawyers and money

 

Fleeing the country

 

Weaponizing his brand into a shadow presidency with media empire and armed militias

 

Fleeing the country is the surest bet to avoid consequences, but I just don't see him as the type to do that.

 

Also he would need to be clever enough to get his money out too and consider the impact on his ambitious children. 

Edited December 16, 2020 by Jingthing

[joecoolfrog]

3 minutes ago, Caldera said:

Maybe the spirits of American COVID-19 victims will come to haunt him and he'll jump off a ledge at Trump Tower. Many things could happen, my prediction might not even be the whackiest one!

 

One needs empathy to feel regret , Trump has none !

[cmarshall]

9 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I’ve got my opinion and I have my track record on both Biden and Trump.

 

Here’s a fact, we none of yet know the extent of Trump’s crimes, we do know he’s been hiding transcripts of calls with the very same people he is alleged to have conspired with.

 

We also know Bill Barr has been closing down investigations relating to or close to Trump.

 

Let’s see the extent of Trump’s crimes before we accept these fanciful ideas that he will not face Federal prosecution.

 

You have a charming conviction that the facts of his crimes will determine whether or not Trump faces federal prosecution, but the evidence is that this is not how it work.  As I pointed out, President Obama was presented the evidence supporting charges of conducting torture by the CIA, but it was he, Obama, who declined to prosecute, not some staff attorney at DoJ.  Similarly, President Ford decided to pardon Nixon.  When asked about the possibility of a prosecution of Trump, Candidate Biden did not respond, "Why are you asking me that question, since it will obviously be up to the Atty Gen?"  Instead, Biden replied that he thought such a prosecution would be "bad for democracy." 

 

The decision on whether to prosecute Trump will be a political decision which will effectively be made when Biden picks his Atty Gen.  That's just how these things work.  

[Jingthing]

7 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

 

You have a charming conviction that the facts of his crimes will determine whether or not Trump faces federal prosecution, but the evidence is that this is not how it work.  As I pointed out, President Obama was presented the evidence supporting charges of conducting torture by the CIA, but it was he, Obama, who declined to prosecute, not some staff attorney at DoJ.  Similarly, President Ford decided to pardon Nixon.  When asked about the possibility of a prosecution of Trump, Candidate Biden did not respond, "Why are you asking me that question, since it will obviously be up to the Atty Gen?"  Instead, Biden replied that he thought such a prosecution would be "bad for democracy." 

 

The decision on whether to prosecute Trump will be a political decision which will effectively be made when Biden picks his Atty Gen.  That's just how these things work.  

I agree and I think it's already clear that Biden's attorney general is going to be on board with not going after Mr. trump.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Jingthing

[joecoolfrog]

1 minute ago, Jingthing said:

I won't put odds on that but that is a very serious threat to the soon to be ex-president. So there are three ways to defend against that:

 

The usual way with lawyers and money

 

Fleeing the country

 

Weaponizing his brand into a shadow presidency with media empire and armed militias

 

Fleeing the country is the surest bet to avoid consequences, but I just don't see him as the type to do that.

I think he will brazen it out , keep telling porkies and rely on his cult following believing the nonsense.

A pardon or skipping the country means accepting guilt and failure , cant see his ego swallowing that .

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

13 minutes ago, Jingthing said:

Actually he is welcome in Palm Beach. The problem is that he can't really legally live in Mar-a-lago specifically as his residence unless either the law is changed or they continue to not enforce it. 

 

With Trump and Mar a Lago, I'm not sure the issue is any local law there... as much as it is the legal agreements Trump himself has signed along the way as part of the past process of converting his residence into a private club. That's where he committed to the place not allowing any ongoing permanent residents.

 

[Jingthing]

Just now, joecoolfrog said:

I think he will brazen it out , keep telling porkies and rely on his cult following believing the nonsense.

A pardon or skipping the country means accepting guilt and failure , cant see his ego swallowing that .

Yes but he still faces the risk of ending up in the hoosegow. 

[cmarshall]

10 minutes ago, Bkktodd said:

New york state AG will file charges once he is no longer president. Lock up  his grifter family too. 

 

We certainly hope so, but it's worth remembering that so far the investigation being conducted by NY Atty Gen Leticia James is purely a civil action, i.e. one that could result in fines, but not imprisonment.  Manhattan DA Cyrus Vance, Jr. is conducting a criminal investigation of Trump and the Trump Org, but we should also keep in mind that Vance previously shut down an investigation of Don Jr. and Ivanka for real estate fraud just after having lunch with Marc Kassovitz, a lawyer for Trump and a contributor to Vance's re-election campaign.  A few weeks after dropping the investigation Kassowitz made an additional contribution to the Vance campaign of $50,000.

 

So, it is far from a done deal that the prosecutors in NY State will indeed put Trump away.

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

With Trump and Mar a Lago, I'm not sure the issue is any local law there... as much as it is the legal agreements Trump himself has signed along the way as part of the past process of converting his residence into a private club. That's where he committed to the place not allowing any ongoing permanent residents.

 

Fair enough. In any case he's technically not allowed to live there as his primary residence and that is legally binding. Something has got to give on that or he won't be able to live there.

[stevenl]

6 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

 

You have a charming conviction that the facts of his crimes will determine whether or not Trump faces federal prosecution, but the evidence is that this is not how it work.  As I pointed out, President Obama was presented the evidence supporting charges of conducting torture by the CIA, but it was he, Obama, who declined to prosecute, not some staff attorney at DoJ.  Similarly, President Ford decided to pardon Nixon.  When asked about the possibility of a prosecution of Trump, Candidate Biden did not respond, "Why are you asking me that question, since it will obviously be up to the Atty Gen?"  Instead, Biden replied that he thought such a prosecution would be "bad for democracy." 

 

The decision on whether to prosecute Trump will be a political decision which will effectively be made when Biden picks his Atty Gen.  That's just how these things work.  

I agree with your reasoning that that is most likely to happen.

 

But I'm still in dubio whether this is the right course. On one hand I understand Biden's fear that a Trump prosecution will only deepen the rift, on the other hand I do understand the want for punishment of his illegalities.

[stevenl]

5 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

With Trump and Mar a Lago, I'm not sure the issue is any local law there... as much as it is the legal agreements Trump himself has signed along the way as part of the past process of converting his residence into a private club. That's where he committed to the place not allowing any ongoing permanent residents.

 

Can't that be changed to a residency now, or combination of residency/club?

[cmarshall]

16 minutes ago, stevenl said:

I agree with your reasoning that that is most likely to happen.

 

But I'm still in dubio whether this is the right course. On one hand I understand Biden's fear that a Trump prosecution will only deepen the rift, on the other hand I do understand the want for punishment of his illegalities.

 

I agree 100%.  The restoration of the rule of law requires federal prosecution of the most brazen violator of both Constitution and statute ever to occupy the White House.  Failing to prosecute Trump would amount to endorsing Trump's authoritarian claim to be above the law.  That would be the worst step the Biden administration could take.

 

But the Dems usually lack the stomach for the fight.  Even more important practically than prosecuting Trump is for Vice President Harris in her function as President of the Senate to discontinue the practice of "priority recognition" for the Senate Majority Leader which is the mere precedent, found neither in the Constitution or the Standing Rules of the Senate, by which the ML completely controls the agenda of the Senate.  All it would take is for President of the Senate Harris to take her place on the dais of the Senate during each session and make all the decisions of which senator to recognize and which bills or motions to allow the Senate to vote on.   Explained here: https://blog.usejournal.com/mitch-mcconnell-an-emperor-without-clothes-c0096ac51e36

 

My guess is that Harris will do no such thing.  She and the Dems will allow McConnell complete control of the Senate agenda as long as they have a majority since that's the way it has been done since 1937.

 

And it goes on.  If the Republicans retain a majority in the Senate and another Supreme Court seat becomes available, President Biden can fill the seat via an interim appointment while the Congress is in recess.  You might think that the Congress can only go into recess when both the House and the Senate vote to recess, but that's not the only way.  If the House and the Senate do not agree on a recess, then the tie-breaking vote goes to...  the president of the United States.  So, Biden and Pelosi could put the Congress in recess as often and as long as they wish to enable Biden to make interim appointments, which do not require subsequent confirmation by the Senate.

 

Will they do that?  I doubt it, although in my opinion they owe it to us.

 

The Democrats remind me of the Kerensky government facing the Bolsheviks.  

Edited December 16, 2020 by cmarshall

[Jingthing]

12 minutes ago, stevenl said:

Can't that be changed to a residency now, or combination of residency/club?

It could be changed but it's not entirely up to him. Word is his neighbors are sick of all that noise.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

2 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

Will they do that?  I doubt it, although in my opinion they owe it to us.

 

Those are interesting choices and options you laid out. Normally, I'd be in favor of preserving the traditions of governance and precedent...

 

But clearly, Trump and his current brand of Republicans spent the last 4 years breaking and flouting those widely and at length, including on the extreme hypocrisy of the Senate refusing to consider Obama's SC nominee and then turning right around and giving Trump his pre-election pick.

 

If the Democrats ever hope to counter Trump and his Republican supporters extremist tendencies, they're going to have to up their game, and not just take the easy way out and deferring to tradition. Trump and Co. never did that, and ran roughshod over them the past 4 years.

 

At some point, the Democrats better get tired of losing.

 

[Walker88]

He faces financial trouble, too, as his brand isn't worth much anymore. He always tried to market himself to the wealthy, but since he can do nothing for them anymore, and his base is not exactly composed of the elite, he will have no choice but to move way down the food chain to cheap highway motels that often have chalk mark silhouettes on the carpet.

 

His international properties, whose financial records are made public despite his company being private, show nothing but red ink, so one might assume his US businesses (where financial statement release is not required) are doing similarly. He has $400 million of debt maturing in 2021, and little hope of it being re-financed. He owes $30 million to the Bank of China; unlikely they will refinance now that he's out of the WH.

 

Also, in addition to the myriad criminal charges he faces in NY, and perhaps on the Federal level as well, he is under investigation in Scotland as to the source of his funding for Turnberry and other properties. The Scottish Parliament has termed his financing 'suspicious', and they have a law demanding transparency for major acquisitions. If he cannot provide acceptable proof of the source, Scotland can seize his properties. During the time of acquisition, all of his businesses were losing, according to tax records, so Scotland wants to now where the funds originated.

 

The revelations in the NYT about his business history, ascertained from tax documents, show that he never was any sort of business success, but by and large a massive failure, burning though the hundreds of millions he inherited and was given from his father, who also co-signed all of his loans while the father was still alive. Those 6 major bankruptcies---all of which ended in the lap of the US Taxpayer, as banks and creditors write off the loss---and his countless failed businesses (steaks, water, travel, airline, football team, airline, etc.) were not anomalies; they were his 'business as usual', which means failure.

 

His first actual gains in business apparently only came when his TV game show was successful.

 

His post-election grifting may give him sufficient funds to meet his many legal challenges, but if he retains the same 'elite strikeforce team' that is now 1-59 in court, he might want to prepare for a lot of down time as he does time.

 

Should he opt for a self-pardon, he risks exposure for Federal crimes if the courts strike down that obvious attempt at being a monarch, rather than 'equal under the law' as the US Constitution demands. If he resigns and looks for a pence pardon, he may find that pence, who wants to run in 2024, might choose to eliminate one potential other candidate by holding off on the pardon.

 

His world must look increasingly ugly to him as 20 January approaches.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Walker88

[cmarshall]

22 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Those are interesting choices and options you laid out. Normally, I'd be in favor of preserving the traditions of governance and precedent...

 

But clearly, Trump and his current brand of Republicans spent the last 4 years breaking and flouting those widely and at length, including on the extreme hypocrisy of the Senate refusing to consider Obama's SC nominee and then turning right around and giving Trump his pre-election pick.

 

If the Democrats ever hope to counter Trump and his Republican supporters extremist tendencies, they're going to have to up their game, and not just take the easy way out and deferring to tradition. Trump and Co. never did that, and ran roughshod over them the past 4 years.

 

At some point, the Democrats better get tired of losing.

 

 

There is no possibility of a return to the pre-Gingrich comity on Capitol Hill.  That ship has sailed definitively.  

 

What is at stake is the mid-term election in 2022.  We can see that an electorate that flipped from Obama to Trump to Biden, each of whom by the way promised "change," is quite ready to turn viciously on any government whom they think has failed to deliver.  The goal of McConnell's obstruction is exactly to cause the Biden government to fail to deliver the program it has promised.  If the Dems tolerate the status quo that puts the agenda of the Senate entirely under McConnell's control for no good reason other than that VP John Nance Garner just decided to do it that way in 1937, then they will fail and they will lose the House and more of the Senate in 2022.  

 

The only long-term solution to the problem of the 70 million Trump supporters is for the Dem government actually, measurably to improve their lives.  We know the Rs have no interest in this, so the field is open to the Dems.

 

If on the other hand, the Dems were to win the two GA Senate seats on Jan. 5, then the sky is, and should be, the limit.  They should complete all of these steps well before the 2022 election, all of which only require passage of a bill through Congress and the President's signature:

 

1.  Admit Washington, D.C. to the Union as a state with two senators and one congressman.

 

2.  Admit Puerto Rico to the Union as a state with two senators and approx. four congressmen.

 

3.  Forgive the outstanding student debt.

 

4.  Buy up the outstanding health care debt and retire it.

 

5.  Amend the Affordable Care Act, taking care to add a clause that per the Exceptions Clause of US Constitution, Art. III, § 2, Cl 2, the ACA does not fall under the Appellate Jurisdiction of the Supreme Court, which means that the SC no longer has jurisdiction to rule any or all of the ACA unconstitutional.

 

6.  Using the same Exceptions Clause of US Constitution, Art. III, § 2, Cl 2, transfer most or all of the Appellate Jurisdiction of the Supreme Court by item as exceptions to a new Supreme Appellate Court of the United States, comprising twenty-five justices serving staggered terms of seven years and which Court does not have judicial review of the acts of Congress, i.e. cannot rule them unconstitutional. 

 

Edited December 16, 2020 by cmarshall

[GrandPapillon]

Congrats to Biden, now that it's official. Trump will be missed for his entertainment value and for "disrupting" the system. Best POTUS ever ????

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

12 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

Congrats to Biden, now that it's official. Trump will be missed for his entertainment value and for "disrupting" the system. Best POTUS ever ????

 

Ya, best ever for disrupting and demonizing the U.S. tradition of democratic governance and government. Best ever would-be U.S. dictator.

 

[GrandPapillon]

6 minutes ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

Ya, best ever for disrupting and demonizing the U.S. tradition of democratic governance and government. Best ever would-be U.S. dictator.

 

that boat has sailed a long time ago, don't confuse popular election with democracy, and the POTUS has very little power at the end

 

Congress is corrupted by lobbies and self-interest, with no vision for at least the last 4 POTUS (Clinton was the last with a vision)

 

Obama was a complete failure, and a nasty person, despite being very "presidential" and handsome, and very good for public relations

 

Trump had a vision, despite his "disruptive" and "unPC" ways, and he was addressing a reality, the neglected of the red states

 

Biden is not going to be able to solve much, probably less than Trump, but at least he will look pretty on TV and be well maneured 

Edited December 16, 2020 by GrandPapillon

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

4 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

that boat has sailed a long time ago, don't confuse popular election with democracy, and the POTUS has very little power at the end

 

The U.S. process of citizens voting for and electing their president and legislators IS a key and core part of the U.S. democratic tradition, and that's exactly what Trump has been attempting to subvert and discredit with baseless and discredited election fraud allegations. He's attempted to bring into disrepute a core element of the U.S. democracy.

 

Not to mention, regularly ignoring and evading the Constitutional prerogative of Congress' role of oversight over the executive branch, another core tenet of the U.S. constitutional and democratic system.

 

When Trump strikes out at the U.S. system of public elections, he strikes out at the heart of the U.S. democracy.

 

 

[placeholder]

13 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

that boat has sailed a long time ago, don't confuse popular election with democracy, and the POTUS has very little power at the end

 

Congress is corrupted by lobbies and self-interest, with no vision for at least the last 4 POTUS (Clinton was the last with a vision)

 

Obama was a complete failure, and a nasty person, despite being very "presidential" and handsome, and very good for public relations

 

Trump had a vision, despite his "disruptive" and "unPC" ways, and he was addressing a reality, the neglected of the red states

 

Biden is not going to be able to solve much, probably less than Trump, but at least he will look pretty on TV and be well maneured 

Tell the 20 million people who had no insurance coverage before that Obama was a complete failure. Taxes on the wealthiest Americans helped pay for that. 

Improved the solvency of Medicare through the ACA 

The US recovery from the Great Recession was faster than most industrialized nations thanks to Obama's 787 billion rescue. And no thanks to Republicans who rejected it and actually pushed for austerity.

Expanded health care coverage for children by 4 million. That was paid for by increased taxes on the Tobaccao industry.

Tell the Wall Street firms and the big banks what a failure he was after he signed the Dodd Franks bill into law that greatly limited their power to harm the economy. (Not his fault that the Trump administration largely refused to enforce it)

He saved 2.5 million jobs in the auto industry.

Reduced air and water pollution much to the dismay of various polluting industries. Not his fault the Trump administration has partially reversed that progress.

Greatly increased wildlife and wilderness protection.

 

 

 

[zhounan]

Trump is the new Thaksin????

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

6 minutes ago, zhounan said:

Trump is the new Thaksin????

 

You mean, the first one long in exile, and the second one possibly heading there soon?

 

[Jeffr2]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

The U.S. process of citizens voting for and electing their president and legislators IS a key and core part of the U.S. democratic tradition, and that's exactly what Trump has been attempting to subvert and discredit with baseless and discredited election fraud allegations. He's attempted to bring into disrepute a core element of the U.S. democracy.

 

Not to mention, regularly ignoring and evading the Constitutional prerogative of Congress' role of oversight over the executive branch, another core tenet of the U.S. constitutional and democratic system.

 

When Trump strikes out at the U.S. system of public elections, he strikes out at the heart of the U.S. democracy.

 

 

Well put!

[evadgib]

1 hour ago, TallGuyJohninBKK said:

 

The U.S. process of citizens voting for and electing their president and legislators IS a key and core part of the U.S. democratic tradition, and that's exactly what Trump has been attempting to subvert and discredit with baseless and discredited election fraud allegations. He's attempted to bring into disrepute a core element of the U.S. democracy.

 

Not to mention, regularly ignoring and evading the Constitutional prerogative of Congress' role of oversight over the executive branch, another core tenet of the U.S. constitutional and democratic system.

 

When Trump strikes out at the U.S. system of public elections, he strikes out at the heart of the U.S. democracy.

At the Heart of US democracy is the US constitution which may yet prove interesting in the week commencing on the 6th of January...

[Thingamabob]

8 hours ago, rgraham said:

Yesterday marked a great step forward for bureaucrats and socialists, a huge leap off the cliff for 
Americans!

Back to the swamp.

[Walker88]

27 minutes ago, Thingamabob said:

Back to the swamp.

The swamp was never deeper and smellier than under 45. K Street was a revolving door of grifting. jared 'somehow' obtained $1.2 billion of financing for his failed 666 Fifth Ave top-ticked property from the Govt of Qatar, and shortly thereafter, 'somehow' Qatar got off the sanctions list that 45 had recently put them on. ivanka was granted more than 3 dozen trademarks in China while she, a handbag designer, was serving as a 'senior adviser to POTUS. 45 spent more than $148 million, according to government accounting records, on golf (284 rounds at his own properties). He had foreign govts spend millions in his DC hotel and at Turnberry. jared arranged for a $700 million special loan to a friend through the Covid bailout, and also took at least $3 million for his own business from that rescue fund. During 45's campaign, he held a 'fundraiser' ostensibly for Veterans, then used the money for his Iowa primary campaign (per corey lewandowski in a sworn testimony in Congress).

 

The rot, corruption and self-dealing from Day 1 of 45's administration is so egregious that his term 'swamp' is totally inadequate. Sewer may be more appropriate.

[Lacessit]

3 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

Congrats to Biden, now that it's official. Trump will be missed for his entertainment value and for "disrupting" the system. Best POTUS ever ????

Says a lot about your own values if you think Trump was the best. Troll post?