House impeaches Trump after U.S. Capitol siege; his fate in Senate hands

[J Town]

10 minutes ago, pacovl46 said:

Someone told me today if they were to impeach him he’d be stripped of the wage he’d get after getting out of office and he wouldn’t be provided with security until the end of his days. Don’t know if it’s true, though.

The Senate has to vote for that. I hope the vote is held for the new Senate after 20 Jan.

[mtraveler]

13 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

There was voter fraud, but not enough to sway the election. What YOU heard has no bearing on what IM saying. 

 

 

I literally gave 5-6 reasons in the post, Im not going to do it again. Maybe just read them again and carefully. 

 

Ok...  so I read your post again, and I've read the 6 reasons you think the election was unfair or not right.  

 

1- Four year-long campaign of attacks.  You don't think there were attacks from both sides?  And has not every President for the last 40 years been under assault from the opposing party?  Does that make every election unfair?

 

2- Pandemic- What part of a pandemic makes an election unfair?  Should we have suspended elections because of the Pandemic, just like they suspended elections during WWII and the Civil War?  Oh, wait, they didn't. 

 

3- Government shutdown without aid.  You think Republicans had no hand in the shutdown?  And regardless, does a shutdown make an election unfair?

 

4- Tech monopolies influencing readers.  You mean, like Twitter?  

 

5- Legacy media picking sides.  You know, maybe 20 years ago, this argument would merit, but now with Fox News, all the right wing talking heads with their own shows, and the NY Post, and this internet thing, I think it's pretty even out there.  No one is being starved of opinions today.  More than enough sources for news, fake or not. 

 

6- Changing voting rules at the last minute.  Well, what did you expect the country to do with a pandemic and the election coming up, not make logical changes to voting procedures to protect people from infecting each other?  Especially in places where votes are suppressed with limited voting booths, and people waiting hours just to vote?  The decisions were made by each state, and that's what it is.  If we want to change Presidential elections to be uniform and controlled by the federal government, I'm all for it.  But at this time, this is how it is.  States decided, courts decided. Game over.  

 

I don't know... I'm not seeing something so terribly unfair or wrong in this list. No wonder I didn't understand what you were referring to.  By the way, would you like to compare your list of what you consider "unfair" to gerrymandering and voter suppression and disenfranchisement?  I'm happy to.  

 

 

[Scott]

Off-topic, troll post and replies reported and removed.  

 

[Chomper Higgot]

1 hour ago, cmarshall said:

 

I don't think it is a smart move in the sense you intend.  In any case, the chances of getting a conviction now or later are vanishingly low.  If McConnell had decided he wanted Trump removed and disqualified it would be done before the 20th.  He clearly has not decided any such thing, which means it almost certainly won't happen.  So, let the Dems spin their wheels.  

Meanwhile corporate backers are withdrawing financial support of the GOP.

 

Mcconnell is open to persuasion.

[Salerno]

13 minutes ago, pacovl46 said:

Someone told me today if they were to impeach him he’d be stripped of the wage he’d get after getting out of office and he wouldn’t be provided with security until the end of his days. Don’t know if it’s true, though.

 

Kind of, needs to be convicted in the Senate before leaving office and would still retain a security detail.

 

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/what-could-trump-lose-by-being-impeached-and-removed-a-lot-11610569056

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/verify/if-president-trump-is-impeached-he-forfeits-his-pension-travel-fund-security-detail-is-that-true/65-3d189015-2897-46a1-8ac7-aa923d243cf1

https://www.factcheck.org/2021/01/viral-tweet-distorts-facts-on-consequences-of-impeachment/

[Walker88]

This is just the beginning. mcconnell might delay bringing the impeachment to the Senate for trial, but it would then come under the Dem-controlled Senate next week. Getting 67 votes to convict is difficult, but if there is even a hint of more terrorism by 45's base, it will become easier. Also, the vote requires a super majority of those present, so if some repubs 'vote' with their feet, it makes it easier to get 67%.

 

Sure conviction votes from repubs seem to be Sasse, Romney, Murkowski and Thune. Likely include Shelby, Collins and Burr. Portman might be in that 'likely' group. McConnell is still deciding, as his goal is to rebuild a Party and his vote would be based on how to resurrect from the ashes something that could resonate with voters.

 

If other repubs show their true colors (100% self-serving), then we could add hawley, cruz and rubio, since all fancy themselves POTUS candidates in 2024 and would like to have 45 out of the way for good.

 

Conviction is possible.

 

45 is up against it regardless. His self-pardon, if he does it, will fail in the courts, as the US is not a monarchy. A self-pardon, theoretically, would allow President Biden to execute 45 then say 'pardon me'. Obviously we don't want that kind of power and non-accountability in the hands of anyone. Because 45 alienated pence, even if 45 resigns before next Wednesday, pence is unlikely to pardon him. pence also has ambitions for 2024, so he, too, would want 45 out of the way.

 

AG Garland is likely to pursue Seditious conspiracy charges against 45, ruby, 45, jr and Rep brooks. A host of civil suits will also be aimed at 45. Then there's NY State and Georgia, both of whom have investigations ongoing against 45. NY still awaits 45's tax returns, but given the law ("shall provide"), the new Treasury Sec and IRS Chief will likely give NY State those tax returns next Wednesday afternoon.

 

Banks have deserted 45 and are likely to call in loans. He also has at least $300 million due in 2021, and DB has already stated they will not refinance. 45 doesn't have the cash, so expect bankruptcy #7. What he owes and what he will need to pay in legal costs dwarfs even what he was able to grift off his base with his fake fraud claims and small print that allows him to do whatever he wants with any contribution less than $5000.

 

Adding more salt in the wounds the Govt of Scotland is investigating his purchase of Turnberry and other golf courses in Scotland, and if 45 cannot produce evidence of the source of the funding, Scotland can seize all of those assets. 45 might not even be able to enter Scotland, as several parliament members have produced a Bill that puts 45 on a terrorist watch list and prohibits him from entering the country.

 

I suspect 45 will look on 2020, the year he got hammered in the election, as 'the good ole days'.

[Jeffr2]

12 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Meanwhile corporate backers are withdrawing financial support of the GOP.

 

Mcconnell is open to persuasion.

Yeah, just read that.  I guess the financial part is really bothering him.  As it should be!  Elections are only 2 years away and he wants his old job back.  One that Trump lost for him.  Luckily.  I guess that's one thing we can thank Trump for!!!! LOL

[placeholder]

1 hour ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

There was voter fraud, but not enough to sway the election. What YOU heard has no bearing on what IM saying. 

You have a point:

Man Charged for Voting as Dead Mother for Trump in 3rd Case of Voter Fraud in Pennsylvania

Delaware County, Pennsylvania man Bruce Bartman was arraigned Friday after admitting to authorities that he had registered his dead mother to vote in the 2020 presidential election for President Donald Trump.

"Bartman, who is a registered Republican, also registered his mother as a Republican," Stollsteimer said...He in fact cast the ballot of his deceased mother for President Trump."

https://www.newsweek.com/man-charged-voting-dead-mother-trump-3rd-case-voter-fraud-pennsylvania-1556553

[Mama Noodle]

3 minutes ago, placeholder said:

You have a point:

 

I always have a point. 

 

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2021/01/13/rachel-rodriguez-arrested-alleged-election-fraud-illegal-voting-texas/

[Berkshire]

25 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Meanwhile corporate backers are withdrawing financial support of the GOP.

 

Mcconnell is open to persuasion.

Mitch is a pretty practical dude...and a cunning one.  He can see what the Senate vote will be about:  not necessarily about the insurrection (of which Trump is unquestionably guilty), but whether he wants Trump to continue to be the de facto leader of the GOP for the next 4 years and possibly beyond.  I'm not a mind reader, but I'm pretty sure Mitch would prefer someone else who can better represent his party. 

[polpott]

1 hour ago, cmarshall said:

 

I don't think it is a smart move in the sense you intend.  In any case, the chances of getting a conviction now or later are vanishingly low.  If McConnell had decided he wanted Trump removed and disqualified it would be done before the 20th.  He clearly has not decided any such thing, which means it almost certainly won't happen.  So, let the Dems spin their wheels.  

McConnel doesn't want Trump removing from office. That will happen on the 20th. McConnell wants him debarred from ever running for any federal office again.

[cmarshall]

55 minutes ago, sirineou said:

I am sure he would, but then it might invalidate his ability to pursue future federal office under amendment 14 chapter 3 , and remove Damocles sword from over the head of potential challengers for leadership of the Republican party. 

 and it would certainly open him to certain legal challenges when he applies for candidate status. Furthermore ,  if he was to self pardone, as soon as he leaves office in a week, he will be indicted for the crimes of the pardon simply to challenge the validity of the self pardon. You don't think prosecutors will just let a self pardon fly with out challenge? It would be the end of American democracy and the beginning of the imperial presidency. 

IMO he will not self pardon because of the above reason, and will not resign because his personality pathology will not allow him to do so.

But who knows , I could be wrong, it's not like I have never been wrong before. LOL

 IMO trump is screwed and he knows it,  which is why had done anything he can to stay in power another four years . Maintain executive privilege and run down the clock on the statute of limitations for previous crimes that are waiting for him to leave office. 

 

My money is on the self-pardon.

[cmarshall]

56 minutes ago, pacovl46 said:

Someone told me today if they were to impeach him he’d be stripped of the wage he’d get after getting out of office and he wouldn’t be provided with security until the end of his days. Don’t know if it’s true, though.

 

If he were impeached and convicted that might be true, but no one really knows because it has never happened.  Anyway, it's academic, because he won't be convicted.

[cmarshall]

39 minutes ago, Chomper Higgot said:

Meanwhile corporate backers are withdrawing financial support of the GOP.

 

Mcconnell is open to persuasion.

 

Remember how certain everyone that Trump was finished when the Access Hollywood tapes came out?  Time passed and he was still there.  It is possible that the furor against Trump this time will die down also and the corporations will remember that their interests are best served by the Republicans.

[cmarshall]

6 minutes ago, polpott said:

McConnel doesn't want Trump removing from office. That will happen on the 20th. McConnell wants him debarred from ever running for any federal office again.

 

Right, but once he has left office trying him in the Senate is probably unconstitutional and so the disqualification for future office option is no longer on the table.  McConnell knows this as well as anyone, so if he really wanted to that nail in Trump's coffin he would have made sure that a) the Senate trial would take place before the 20th and b) he announces that he is voting for conviction.  Since neither of those steps have taken place, McConnell is up to something else.

[Patong2021]

3 hours ago, polpott said:

This isn't a given. First the Senate must uphold the impeachment by 2/3rds majority, then an application to the Senate can be made to bar him from holding Federal office for life which requires a simple majority to pass, which would almost certainly pass now the Democrats hold the Senate.

 

McConnell is privately advocating this as it would wash that man right out of their hair, essential if the currently fractured Republican Party is to reunite and move forward as one.

 

It would also serve to remove any hopes of his base that their glorious leader will make a comeback. The Trump cult is a personality cult, remove the leader and the cult dies.

 

 

 

I don't believe McConnell. He is a manipulative man only concerned for his personal power and of course money. He signals that he is shocked, much like the police captain in Casablanca.

 

Captain Renault: I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!

[a croupier hands Renault a pile of money]

Croupier: Your winnings, sir.

Captain Renault:  Oh, thank you very much.

 

Big business is scared of republicans and will not give money. Sheldon Adelson big Republican donor died a day ago. Mitch wants to make nice noises to soothe big money. 

[Chomper Higgot]

7 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

 

Remember how certain everyone that Trump was finished when the Access Hollywood tapes came out?  Time passed and he was still there.  It is possible that the furor against Trump this time will die down also and the corporations will remember that their interests are best served by the Republicans.

I remember how when the ‘Access Hollywood tapes’ came out many people said Trump

was not fit for Presidency, others defended him.

 

Well look how that worked out,

[Patong2021]

11 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

 

My money is on the self-pardon.

I read that it can not stand up in court. I am not constitutional lawyer, but many experts say no including his personal lawyers and the former AG Barr. Maybe Rudy Guiliani  and that crazy lady who was going to give krackers. may think he can, but these are not the best lawyers out there.

[Chomper Higgot]

8 minutes ago, mikebike said:

Like those who leave out the events of the last 4 yrs when discussing last week's insurrection? Or the not-at-all close election?

I’ve met with a number of Americans this past week and was at dinner with three of them on the day of the failed coup.

 

Not one mentioned any of it.

 

We have a lunch appointment again today, I’m once again expecting silence.

 

They non of them were so quiet when they thought Trump was unassailable.

 

I suspect this is not uncommon.

[cmarshall]

1 minute ago, Chomper Higgot said:

I remember how when the ‘Access Hollywood tapes’ came out many people said Trump

was not fit for Presidency, others defended him.

 

Well look how that worked out,

 

What they thought was that Trump's candidacy could not survive that scandal.  Vice presidential candidate Mike Pence even went to the RNC to offer himself as candidate for president assuming that Trump would have to quit the race.

 

It didn't work out that way.  Trump was never fit for the presidency and all the politicians always knew that, but that consideration is not decisive if your party has a path to power that ignores it.

[mtraveler]

12 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

 

Right, but once he has left office trying him in the Senate is probably unconstitutional and so the disqualification for future office option is no longer on the table.  McConnell knows this as well as anyone, so if he really wanted to that nail in Trump's coffin he would have made sure that a) the Senate trial would take place before the 20th and b) he announces that he is voting for conviction.  Since neither of those steps have taken place, McConnell is up to something else.

I think McConnell is kicking the can down the road so that the conviction is pinned on the Democrats, who at that time will have control of the Senate.  And then the Republicans can then caterwaul how the mean Democrats don't want to have unity and wanted to convict the President.  (er, FORMER President)

[bunnydrops]

A bit off topic. Can a man accused of murder be convicted if he dies before the trial?

[cmarshall]

2 minutes ago, mtraveler said:

I think McConnell is kicking the can down the road so that the conviction is pinned on the Democrats, who at that time will have control of the Senate.  And then the Republicans can then caterwaul how the mean Democrats don't want to have unity and wanted to convict the President.  (er, FORMER President)

 

That will also happen, but McConnell's actions demonstrate most clearly that disqualifying Trump from running again was not important to him.  If it had been he would have scheduled the Senate trial immediately and urged his members to vote to convict, but he did neither of those things.  So, basically that project falls apart and could even be detrimental to the incoming administration.

 

[Jeffr2]

40 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

I always have a point. 

 

https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2021/01/13/rachel-rodriguez-arrested-alleged-election-fraud-illegal-voting-texas/

Arrested by an AG who firmly believes the election was stolen (it wasn't) in a state that believes the same thing.  Right....

 

It's not been proven yet and is still under investigation.  Project Veritas is bogus.  Look it up.  Propaganda and misinformation at it's worst.  Sad you fall for this.  You really need a better source for your news.

 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/project-veritas-ballot-harvesting-video-debunked-ilhan-omar_n_5f7de437c5b63de65f08dcd7

Surprise, Surprise: Reports Debunk Viral Project Veritas Video About Harvesting Ballots

The video, produced by far-right huckster James O’Keefe and promoted by Trump, claimed to prove Rep. Ilhan Omar committed election fraud. It does not.

[Mama Noodle]

6 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Arrested by an AG who firmly believes the election was stolen (it wasn't) in a state that believes the same thing.  Right....

 

 

The lady was arrested for voter fraud. Done and dusted. 

 

6 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Surprise, Surprise: Reports Debunk Viral Project Veritas Video About Harvesting Ballots

 

This is a completely different case. 

[NanLaew]

4 hours ago, cmarshall said:

It seems pretty clear that the point of impeachment is removal from office.  A former president cannot be removed from office and is therefore not subject to impeachment.

Impeachment is just a fancy word that means to bring a prosecution. A former president can still be tried for acts deemed criminal that were conducted during his presidency.

[Jeffr2]

2 minutes ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

The lady was arrested for voter fraud. Done and dusted. 

 

 

This is a completely different case. 

Study the law a bit.  Arrested doesn't mean you are guilty.  That's yet to be proven.  And project Veritas is a scam.  Sad you fall for it.  You've indicated you believe there's election fraud.  Sure, there's some, always is.  But not enough to impact the election.  Done and dusted.

[Walker88]

42 minutes ago, cmarshall said:

 

My money is on the self-pardon.

Self-pardon cannot possibly hold up in court. It creates a monarch.

 

if it does, then---my reduce to the ridiculous argument---President Biden can call 45 to the WH and execute him, then just say 'pardon me'.

 

That is the argument a lawyer will make if self-pardon is adjudicated. Clearly no one should have that much power, so the idea of self-pardon is against everything the US ostensibly stands for.

 

Madison and Jefferson, if they had wanted a leader to have that much power, would have just used the Magna Carta as the US' founding document, but they specifically went about writing the Constitution and limited the power of any leader by constructing 3 separate branches with checks and balances against the others.

 

I hope 45 counts on self-pardon, because if he does it will fail and he will be subject to Federal charges.

[robblok]

3 hours ago, Mama Noodle said:

 

I still dont "accept" that it was fair, or right, or that the playing field was in any way level. 

 

And it was a very narrow win in the presidency. Only a few 100k votes spread across 3 states and it took a huge, 4 year long campaign of attacks, a pandemic, government shutdowns without aid, a tech monopoly influencing readers, legacy media picking sides, and changing voting rules at the last minute just to squeak out this narrow win. (Nobody cares about popular vote) 

 

They got their very narrow senate majority, but they won't pass anything substantial because its so narrow. Plenty of red state dems careers on the line.  

 

My prediction going forward is that its only going to get worse. 

Media was not bias, Trump was a liar just destroyed himself. The tech giants were right to restrain Trumps lies..

 

Its not normal for a sitting president to lose he has most of the advantages. 

 

The democrats won fair and square, that you live in an alternate universe where these things are unfair is a bit strange.

 

Voting rules changing during a pandemic to save lives is not only fair its the right thing to do.

[cmarshall]

1 minute ago, NanLaew said:

Impeachment is just a fancy word that means to bring a prosecution. A former president can still be tried for acts deemed criminal that were conducted during his presidency.

 

Impeachment is analogous to criminal indictment and the trial in the Senate is analogous to a court trial, but the Constitution clearly distinguished impeachment from criminal procedure.  For example, criminal punishments such as fines or imprisonment are not available in a Senate impeachment trial.  There is no court of appeal to the verdict.  There are basically no rules of evidence.  The Chief Justice of the SC presides, but any ruling that he makes can be overridden by a majority of the senator/jurors.

 

Trump can certainly be criminally prosecuted after Jan. 20 and we can have every hope that he will be, but he can only be impeached while holding office.