Electricity supply

[seajae]

we have moved into a new house we had built and I have noticed that every time something is turned on/kicks in(water pump, air con, microwave, water heater etc) the PSU for the computer clicks  the same as when there is a power outage. Its as if the power  to the house  cannot  provide a strong enough supply to run everything, we are off the main road with 7 other houses(plus a set of workers sheds/accommodation) connected before the power gets to our house with the first house  around 100 metres from the road, does anyone have experience/knowledge of this sort of problem and what can be done.  

[Kwasaki]

What do you have 5/15 or 15/45.

Ask to move to Electric forum have  the experts there. ????

[Crossy]

Yeah, moved to the Electrical Forum.

 

I'm assuming it's your UPS that's clicking, do your lights flicker too?

 

Do you have any test gear, particularly a multimeter? If not some shopping is in order, simple digital meters can be had easily, even Tesco have them.

 

You say this is a new build. 

Are you on a permanent meter (4 Baht per unit) or still on the construction supply (8 Baht per unit)?

As noted earlier is your meter 15/45 or something else? 

Any idea how far away the transformer is?

 

Once we find out what the issue is we can aim at a fix.

[Crossy]

A less than helpful post has been removed.

 

[KannikaP]

4 hours ago, Crossy said:

A less than helpful post has been removed.

 

Sorry Crossy.

[seajae]

we are on the permanent  meter, will have to check on the transformer and the meter type, I have no idea so will take a pic of it and add it to this post, I have no knowledge of electrical stuff at all. Lights dont flicker, its just the PSU for the computer that is clicking everytime something turns on, didnt happen at the other house with the same PSU and computer set up at all apart from when we lost power/lines went out. Actually dont think there is a transformer on the lines at all but will go for a walk tomorrow and have a look to make sure and let you know, the  power line comes 20 metres into our property to a pole near the house as well.

Edited February 14, 2021 by seajae

[Crossy]

Rest assured, there will be a transformer somewhere, hopefully not too far away.

 

Good to see that your distribution board has an RCBO, that's usually the first thing to get missed off and is a vital safety device, this bodes well for the general quality of the rest of the installation.

 

Anything that draws a large start-up surge will cause a momentary dip in the supply voltage, if the supply is already a bit low then this may be enough to cause the UPS to do its job. Hence my question about whether you have a meter, one would be a handy thing to have anyway.

 

In reality, unless you are seeing other problems it's not really going to be an issue, other than the annoyance factor, but it's best to know why so if it gets worse (more homes come on line) you know where to look.

 

[brianthainess]

4 hours ago, Crossy said:

Good to see that your distribution board has an RCBO, that's usually the first thing to get missed off and is a vital safety device, this bodes well for the general quality of the rest of the installation

All new builds *should*by law now have these fitted, before power company inspector signs off the new build.

[millymoopoo]

21 hours ago, Crossy said:

Do you have any test gear, particularly a multimeter?

Certainly a handy instrument.
Several factors need to be considered:

How far away from the transformer are you.? (Large grey box with 6 wires going to it, 3 with large insulators - high voltage and 3 with small insulators - low voltage).

This is relevant as the further away from it you are the greater the voltage drop.

Second is how many houses are connected to the line before you, again the more there is the more they contribute to voltage loss.

So when you get a Multi meter, set it to 500v AC (~) and put the probes into a power socket to see what your supply voltage is, should be around 220v, then watch it when you turn anything on, for example the air con.

See how much the voltage drops, if it's substantial that could well be your problem.
Substantial would be any more than 5 volts.

Resolution to that problem is realistically not going to happen as it requires upgrading the street infrastructure, ie: larger transformer and thicker street wiring.
The Thais tend to just add more load on without upgrading.

It's possible a surge protector may help smooth out the spikes and to a lesser degree the drops but it may be out of it's capacity.
It may be worth looking into a new PSU as most these days are multi voltage 90v to 250v.
Just ensure the output voltage matches that of the old one.

[Crossy]

11 minutes ago, millymoopoo said:

It's possible a surge protector may help smooth out the spikes and to a lesser degree the drops but it may be out of it's capacity.

 

Nope! A surge arrestor will do zero about dippy voltage. You need an AVR (Automatic Voltage Regulator) to handle persistantly low/high voltages (they don't react fast enough to handle quick dips).

 

11 minutes ago, millymoopoo said:

Substantial would be any more than 5 volts.

 

Good luck with that, a nominal 220V +-10% is 198V to 242V. Our supply dips briefly by nearly 30V when the big water pump (3HP) starts.

[seajae]

6 hours ago, Crossy said:

Rest assured, there will be a transformer somewhere, hopefully not too far away.

 

Good to see that your distribution board has an RCBO, that's usually the first thing to get missed off and is a vital safety device, this bodes well for the general quality of the rest of the installation.

 

Anything that draws a large start-up surge will cause a momentary dip in the supply voltage, if the supply is already a bit low then this may be enough to cause the UPS to do its job. Hence my question about whether you have a meter, one would be a handy thing to have anyway.

 

In reality, unless you are seeing other problems it's not really going to be an issue, other than the annoyance factor, but it's best to know why so if it gets worse (more homes come on line) you know where to look.

 

thanks mate, just went for a walk, I was way out in my distances, its around 200 metres to the end of our road, there is another 100 metres of posts/wires going down the next road along  then another 400 to 500 metres from the corner to the main road, there are no transformers to be seen along any of it which I suppose could be part of the problem

[Crossy]

1 minute ago, seajae said:

thanks mate, just went for a walk, I was way out in my distances, its around 200 metres to the end of our road, there is another 100 metres of posts/wires going down the next road along  then another 400 to 500 metres from the corner to the main road, there are no transformers to be seen along any of it which I suppose could be part of the problem

 

Quite possibly,  of course you could have walked the wrong way. Unless you like walking around in the heat (we all need excercise of course) Google Maps Streetview is a handy way of exploring virtually, plus it has a handy-dandy distance measuring device.

 

Definitely time to go shopping for a meter, knowing where your supply is starting from voltage wise is useful to know when moaning to PEA.

[Adiudon]

I have a similar problem with my electricity, opposite is a neighbours rice threshing set up & when that is running my washing machine flags up an under current situation.

My house is about 50 metres from the main roadside pole with a 15/45 meter & using 25mm2 cable from meter to house but the pole is situated around 400 metres from the transformer, too far away.

A closer transformer or making the threshing set up fit its own feed is needed, but nothing ever came from complaining to PEA, even a petition by all effected had no effect.

Luckily it's never running on a night during the hot months when I use the AC, along with numerous other things I have learnt to live with it.

Edited February 15, 2021 by Adiudon
Incorrect wire gauge

[khunPer]

On 2/14/2021 at 5:00 AM, seajae said:

...does anyone have experience/knowledge of this sort of problem and what can be done.  

Yes, quite common with unstable power supply, but it can also be your UPS that is adjusted too sensitive for voltage deviations.

 

Many of today's LED-bulbs are stable in lumen despite of voltage deviations, so it might be difficult to see power deviations from the lighting.

 

Where I live, we have periods with extremely unstable power supply, and even voltage rapidly changing up and down (I have 3-phase 30/100), and some of my UPS' are performing a percussion click-concert, other times with small deviations it might be one UPS only making clicks, and not the others; but that's why one have equipment like UPS to protect sensitive electric equipment...????

 

Voltage deviations could both be caused from equipment in your own home, or from other connections on the line from the transformer; perhaps it might even be from before the transformer, but I'm not an expert...????

 

A voltage meter could be a good investment, if you are curious, or install some of the new LED-indicators, showing the voltage instead of a light, they cost around 100 baht each; I'm going to replace my analogue voltage meters with LEDs.

 

LED voltage indicator...

 

Analogue (cheap) voltage meters; I had them installed as I sometimes experience huge deviations in voltage between the phases...

 

This is what can happen, when voltage is jumping fast up and down; one phase down and the other high, and vice versa, and then I thank heavens for my number of various voltage protectors and UPSs on sensitive equipment... 

 

When I had my house build I had 1000 W voltage regulators installed for the aircons, but changed to hi/lo voltage protection, so-called phase protectors (above) on both aircons and water pumps; good investment and much cheaper than replacing aircon units and water pumps – and even an automatic gate motor which nice burned with flames and smoke as a midsummer bonfire after 400 volt input power – which some of the others on the power line experienced, and there was no help fra PEA.

????

[Crossy]

16 minutes ago, khunPer said:

Analogue (cheap) voltage meters; I had them installed as I sometimes experience huge deviations in voltage between the phases...

 

I would retain your analogue voltmeters.

They will show fairly rapid variations far better than the digital units, we have both.

[khunPer]

5 minutes ago, Crossy said:

 

I would retain your analogue voltmeters.

They will show fairly rapid variations far better than the digital units, we have both.

Thanks for your advice, I could just add the digital indicator below, if nothing else than for the fancy look...????

[Crossy]

5 minutes ago, khunPer said:

Thanks for your advice, I could just add the digital indicator below, if nothing else than for the fancy look...????

 

Madam suggested our electrical boxes look like they have fireflies caught inside with all the assorted LEDs and displays.

 

Of course, they only really get looked at when something has gone pear-shaped.

[bob89110]

One thing you real need to check and that for REVERSE POLARITY and you will need a digital multimeter, a few 100 THB and a little voltage checked screw drive.  The handle lights up if there is power present. You'll need to check all your outlets, and make sure the small slot is LINE +, power in and has voltage going to it, the larger slot is NEUTRAL, that's like  a ground or - negative, and the round one is EARTH GROUND. All three of my houses I found that all most all had the LINE and NEUTRAL wires were switched or the EARTH GROUND wasn't connected or switched with the NEUTRAL.  They can and will cause all kind of problems especially with electronics such as computers and TVs and power supplies...Good luck  

[Crossy]

13 minutes ago, bob89110 said:

One thing you real need to check and that for REVERSE POLARITY and you will need a digital multimeter, a few 100 THB and a little voltage checked screw drive.  The handle lights up if there is power present. You'll need to check all your outlets, and make sure the small slot is LINE +, power in and has voltage going to it, the larger slot is NEUTRAL, that's like  a ground or - negative, and the round one is EARTH GROUND. All three of my houses I found that all most all had the LINE and NEUTRAL wires were switched or the EARTH GROUND wasn't connected or switched with the NEUTRAL.  They can and will cause all kind of problems especially with electronics such as computers and TVs and power supplies...Good luck  

 

If you don't like poking things in outlets one of these is your friend (available with Thai or English text), measures the important voltages, checks your outlet wiring and tests your RCD/RCBO. No toolbox should be without one.

 

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/i316566794-s634644285.html

 

[bob89110]

One thing I did was save the my quick polarity tester from the USA. I know US 120 volts and here 230 volts, but the tester does work here and has worked going on 15 years here.  It only has 3 lights on it, One is red and two of them are Amber. You just plug it into the outlet and it will tell you by the lights if you have open earth ground, reverse polarity on L and N or if the Earth Ground and Neutral are switched. I have enclosed a photo of it.  As I said I've used this for 15 years here in Thailand and about 35+ is the States.

Edited February 15, 2021 by bob89110
spelling incorrect in spots

[seajae]

12 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

Quite possibly,  of course you could have walked the wrong way. Unless you like walking around in the heat (we all need excercise of course) Google Maps Streetview is a handy way of exploring virtually, plus it has a handy-dandy distance measuring device.

 

Definitely time to go shopping for a meter, knowing where your supply is starting from voltage wise is useful to know when moaning to PEA.

mate, power lines only go one way from our house(they stop here), I followed them all the way to the main road, our roads are dirt and not on google maps as yet, looks like I will  have to get a meter 

[Sterling]

@seajaeCan you tell us what make and model UPS/PSU your computer is plugged into?

I'm guessing it something like this APC BV800:

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/apc-ups-easy-bv800i-mst-800va480w-by-banana-it-i1791320784-s5270488321.html

 

[Crossy]

5 hours ago, seajae said:

mate, power lines only go one way from our house(they stop here), I followed them all the way to the main road, our roads are dirt and not on google maps as yet, looks like I will  have to get a meter 

 

Transformer must be along the main road somewhere, definitely time to get out Google maps and do buy a meter.

 

It soulds like you are a goodly way from the transformer and the supply may already be low before your A/C etc. pulls it down further.

[millymoopoo]

On 2/15/2021 at 10:27 AM, Crossy said:

On 2/15/2021 at 10:21 AM, millymoopoo said:

It's possible a surge protector may help smooth out the spikes and to a lesser degree the drops but it may be out of it's capacity.

 

Nope! A surge arrestor will do zero about dippy voltage. You need an AVR (Automatic Voltage Regulator) to handle persistantly low/high voltages (they don't react fast enough to handle quick dips).

Grossy is right about surge protectors being useless at increasing the voltage with  a prolonged voltage drop.
But we do not know if the problem with the power unit cutting out is related to spikes or prolonged periods of high or low voltage supply.
Surge protectors are primarily designed to smooth out spikes, usually produced by switching, both low voltage (within the house or street) and high voltage (within the electricity supply companys' high voltage system) these spikes have a duration of 1 cycle (1/50th sec) at the peak and 1 cycle (1/50th sec) at the valley, the size of the capacitors used in the surge protector are relevant, the larger the capacity, the greater the smoothing. They reduce the spike and valley but only for 1 or 2 cycles. Good ones also have circuitry to protect from prolonged periods of high voltage but can do nothing about prolonged voltage dips.
Voltage regulators work well for the prolonged periods of over voltage but have difficulty in picking up low voltage.

Thus the suggestion of a universal (80v - 250v) power supply, as these will produce a constant pre-set DC voltage when presented with 80v AC or more.
And it my end up being the cheapest option, especially considering there is no guarantee either surge protectors or voltage regulators will work.

On 2/15/2021 at 10:27 AM, Crossy said:

On 2/15/2021 at 10:21 AM, millymoopoo said:

Substantial would be any more than 5 volts.

 

Good luck with that, a nominal 220V +-10% is 198V to 242V. Our supply dips briefly by nearly 30V when the big water pump (3HP) starts.

5 volts drop is just a starting point, if you are close to the transformer I would expect no more.

Obviously the further away you are the more drop you could expect.

The industry standard in the western world (depending on utility policy) is usually between 5% to10%, but in Thailand, 30v drop would not be in the least bit surprising.
Most fluorescent lights will start to flicker once the voltage drops below 190v - 180v, with LED lights, most seem to be able to continue to operate down to 140v before they flicker (or just go out).

A good starting point (as previously indicated) is a volt meter, to fix a problem it helpful to first know what's causing the problem.!

[seajae]

11 hours ago, Sterling said:

@seajaeCan you tell us what make and model UPS/PSU your computer is plugged into?

I'm guessing it something like this APC BV800:

https://www.lazada.co.th/products/apc-ups-easy-bv800i-mst-800va480w-by-banana-it-i1791320784-s5270488321.html

 

APC 950 VA BX950U-MS

[ifmu]

On 2/14/2021 at 11:07 AM, Kwasaki said:

What do you have 5/15 or 15/45.

Ask to move to Electric forum have  the experts there. ????

and what is the voltage when this happens ?  

 

[Sterling]

6 hours ago, seajae said:

APC 950 VA BX950U-MS

Do you have the APC App installed on your PC that allows you to see the voltage of the UPS?

If not, connect your PC to the UPS via a USB cable and download/install the free APC PowerChute Personal app.

It will allow you to see the voltage in near-real time and should save timestamps of whenever there's a voltage drop.

Using this with a lot of the good electrical advice given above should let you run down where the problem is.

Good luck!

[Kwasaki]

4 hours ago, ifmu said:

and what is the voltage when this happens ?  

 

I dunno ask Crossy, all I know if I overload my 5/15 it will blow a fuse in the Chang box.

If your posh and have a Electric consumer unit, trip switches will trip out and cut power.

[Crossy]

18 hours ago, seajae said:

APC 950 VA BX950U-MS

 

The spec. for that unit gives the input voltage as 150-280V so I suspect it will go on battery below 150V (we have the larger version of the same unit although I've never actually check the change over voltage). It also has a built-in AVR which will try to maintain the output voltage if the input is low without actually depleting the battery.

 

Both the switch to battery and AVR function use relays, this is what you are hearing, the beast is doing its job.

 

If your only issue right now is the clicking I wouldn't be overly worried although I would be tempted to check the run-time on battery in case the batteries need replacing.

 

 

[seajae]

4 hours ago, Crossy said:

 

The spec. for that unit gives the input voltage as 150-280V so I suspect it will go on battery below 150V (we have the larger version of the same unit although I've never actually check the change over voltage). It also has a built-in AVR which will try to maintain the output voltage if the input is low without actually depleting the battery.

 

Both the switch to battery and AVR function use relays, this is what you are hearing, the beast is doing its job.

 

If your only issue right now is the clicking I wouldn't be overly worried although I would be tempted to check the run-time on battery in case the batteries need replacing.

 

 

it is a several years old now so battery may need replacing but the battery replacement light has never come on