How is an asupicious time/date calculated?

[bluesofa]

As a non-believer, I'd still like to know if there's some logic as to how these are arrived at?

I've been involved (from the sidelines) in various house building projects.

 

My sister-in-law is building a house, and obviously she's been 'told' by the monks when they can erect a couple of reinforcing bars for the concrete pillars.

It was  today (22nd February) at 08:19. Why?

What does it have to do with any religion, not just buddhism?

[PatOngo]

4 minutes ago, bluesofa said:

As a non-believer, I'd still like to know if there's some logic as to how these are arrived at?

I've been involved (from the sidelines) in various house building projects.

 

My sister-in-law is building a house, and obviously she's been 'told' by the monks when they can erect a couple of reinforcing bars for the concrete pillars.

It was  today (22nd February) at 08:19. Why?

What does it have to do with any religion, not just buddhism?

 

My suggestion, don't even try to understand, it's a cultural thing way beyond the farang comprehension! 

[papa al]

farang think too mut.

[Thaiwrath]

I believe they contact T.A.T. and ask them to pull some numbers out of the hat ! ????????????

[bluesofa]

Thanks for the humorous replies!

However is there some way these dates and times are arrived at?

 

As an aside, I believe Easter in the christian church for example is calculated years in advance. I think it uses some planetary alignment to do with the moon? Hence it being a 'moveable feast' so to speak.

[khaowong1]

I think most of it has to do with Moon phases.  On this day, Feb.22, 2021,  the Moon will be in a Waxing Gibbous phase. This phase is when the moon is more than 50% illuminated but not yet a Full Moon. The phase lasts about 7 days with the moon becoming more illuminated each day until the Full Moon.  Why this particular moon phase has to do with anything, I have no clue. My guess is, that it has something to do with the Buddha's involvement with something.  Maybe he took a shower during this moon phase or passed gas or something.  ????‍♂️

[richard_smith237]

When getting married my Mother in Law to be went to a fortune teller who picked the auspicious date and time perfectly, albeit on the third attempt. 

 

First attempt, MiL gave my Wife to be and I the time and date, no good, it didn’t time out with UK school holidays, thus UK family couldn’t come over. We gave my MiL the date we wanted. 

 

Second attempt, MiL came back with the right date, but a 6:xx AM start for the ‘ring ceremony’, too early, I didn’t want my Wife up that early and tired all day, I didn’t want my UK family (and their kids) exhausted either, I said 5pm. 

 

Third attempt, MiL came back from the fortune teller, the date and exact time I wanted was an auspicious date and time... perfect, everyone happy. 

 

 

[Golden Triangle]

Sorry, but it really all is a load of old ballcocks, only the superstitious & fools listen to the rogues in Saffron.

 

 

[sammieuk1]

Have you looked into 8.20 being the first tea break of the week ????

[bluesofa]

8 hours ago, khaowong1 said:

I think most of it has to do with Moon phases.  On this day, Feb.22, 2021,  the Moon will be in a Waxing Gibbous phase. This phase is when the moon is more than 50% illuminated but not yet a Full Moon. The phase lasts about 7 days with the moon becoming more illuminated each day until the Full Moon.  Why this particular moon phase has to do with anything, I have no clue. My guess is, that it has something to do with the Buddha's involvement with something.  Maybe he took a shower during this moon phase or passed gas or something.  ????‍♂️

Thanks for the insight into how it works.

 

Not that I can see why it should, but I am interested about any system used to arrive with these figures.

If it is lunar based, how does that fit in with the philosophy of buddhism, and why? I'm guessing it's part of the mumbo-jjumbo that's evolved down the (more recent) centuries?

[khaowong1]

15 hours ago, bluesofa said:

Thanks for the insight into how it works.

 

Not that I can see why it should, but I am interested about any system used to arrive with these figures.

If it is lunar based, how does that fit in with the philosophy of buddhism, and why? I'm guessing it's part of the mumbo-jjumbo that's evolved down the (more recent) centuries?

You are correct, most of it is mumbo-jumbo.  I think most of the Buddhist holidays are centered around the full moon.  Probably because calender's back then were not very accurate and I'm pretty sure there were at least 2 different calender's used back then. And if I'm not mistaken, they also didn't have the days named yet, Monday, Tuesday, etc.  So again, we're down to mumbo-jumbo. 

 

[bluesofa]

5 hours ago, khaowong1 said:

You are correct, most of it is mumbo-jumbo.  I think most of the Buddhist holidays are centered around the full moon.  Probably because calender's back then were not very accurate and I'm pretty sure there were at least 2 different calender's used back then. And if I'm not mistaken, they also didn't have the days named yet, Monday, Tuesday, etc.  So again, we're down to mumbo-jumbo.

Do you know what any of the calendars were, and about how far back that goes?

[RichardColeman]

On 2/22/2021 at 2:47 AM, bluesofa said:

As an aside, I believe Easter in the christian church for example is calculated years in advance. I think it uses some planetary alignment to do with the moon? Hence it being a 'moveable feast' so to speak.

Yes, but amazing that his death is moved but his birth isn't

[bluesofa]

3 minutes ago, RichardColeman said:

On 2/22/2021 at 9:47 AM, bluesofa said:

As an aside, I believe Easter in the christian church for example is calculated years in advance. I think it uses some planetary alignment to do with the moon? Hence it being a 'moveable feast' so to speak.

Yes, but amazing that his death is moved but his birth isn't

IIRC isn't the birth date and the year considered to be erroneous?

[kokesaat]

Having been married to a Thai for 48 years, my advice is go with the flow.  If the monks/wife pick a particular date, don't buck the system.  You'll have hell to pay for when your roof collapses or an accident happens.  Believe what you may, but in all likelihood, you're operating on 110V, you wife is 220V.  If the gecko cries just before you're about to leave the house and the wife says suddenly not interested in going out, just go without her.  She knows better.

[Peter Denis]

In the West the notion that there is also something like the 'quality' of the time for starting something has been largely lost.

In Thailand (and other Far-Eastern countries) this notion is still very much alive and disposing it as 'mumbo-jumbo' only shows our Western arrogance and ignorance on matters which we are not familiar with because outside of our belief-system.

I am not saying that the monks determining that auspicious time are always 'in the know', but that doesn't mean that there is much more to this matter than superstitious beliefs.

[bluesofa]

2 hours ago, kokesaat said:

Having been married to a Thai for 48 years, my advice is go with the flow.  If the monks/wife pick a particular date, don't buck the system.  You'll have hell to pay for when your roof collapses or an accident happens.  Believe what you may, but in all likelihood, you're operating on 110V, you wife is 220V.  If the gecko cries just before you're about to leave the house and the wife says suddenly not interested in going out, just go without her.  She knows better.

I'm not looking for an argument to buck the system.

Even as an atheist I'm genuinely interested if there is some way the dates are calculated, although I doubt it a lot.

It doesn't stop me wanting to know if there's a way to arrive at an 'auspicious' date and time.

Member khaowong1 has posted before he used to be a buddhist monk, hence my conversation with him asking more about it.

 

Not trying to send my own post OT, but when I ask my wife as to why Wednesdays is unlucky hair-cutting day, or Thursdays is a no-no for cutting nails, she has no answer, apart from the fact she has always been told that. We don't argue about, but she knows my atheist views and interest in finding out why, whereas Thais will often hate you for asking, just because they have no understanding of it, but accept it as they're frightened/uninterested in finding out.

 

Yes, I saw the sarcasm in your comment 'she knows better', and I understand it.

 

[gunderhill]

On 2/22/2021 at 9:20 AM, bluesofa said:

As a non-believer, I'd still like to know if there's some logic as to how these are arrived at?

I've been involved (from the sidelines) in various house building projects.

 

My sister-in-law is building a house, and obviously she's been 'told' by the monks when they can erect a couple of reinforcing bars for the concrete pillars.

It was  today (22nd February) at 08:19. Why?

What does it have to do with any religion, not just buddhism?

To understand and indulge in this  rubbish this requires a  full frontal lobotomy, once you realise this then you  know how  Thailand works.

[khaowong1]

You Farang, you think too mut.  ????

[khaowong1]

Bluesofa, when ever some villager came to the temple and asked the abbot to pick a date for this or that, he would open this book, kind of like a Thai version of the Farmers Almanac, consult it and give a date.  I couldn't read it as it was in Thai.  I asked about where he got it but never got a answer that I could even understand.  So, I have no clue.  

[bluesofa]

9 hours ago, khaowong1 said:

Bluesofa, when ever some villager came to the temple and asked the abbot to pick a date for this or that, he would open this book, kind of like a Thai version of the Farmers Almanac, consult it and give a date.  I couldn't read it as it was in Thai.  I asked about where he got it but never got a answer that I could even understand.  So, I have no clue.  

Thanks for an answer to my question, there is a book to refer to. 'Farmers Almanac' - the best time to plant your house. ????

Finding out more about the thinking behind it might be more difficult.

 

Even though this is the buddhism forum, it has attracted a lot who aren't interested in finding out any reasoning that may be behind it.

Even as an atheist it doesn't stop me wanting to understand where the thinking might come from, then being able to make a (hopefully) informed critical response.

[khaowong1]

13 hours ago, bluesofa said:

Thanks for an answer to my question, there is a book to refer to. 'Farmers Almanac' - the best time to plant your house. ????

Finding out more about the thinking behind it might be more difficult.

 

Even though this is the buddhism forum, it has attracted a lot who aren't interested in finding out any reasoning that may be behind it.

Even as an atheist it doesn't stop me wanting to understand where the thinking might come from, then being able to make a (hopefully) informed critical response.

I have a couple of monks in Thailand I still talk to, I'll ask them and see if I can't get an answer we would understand.  Might take me a day or two.  

[bluesofa]

7 minutes ago, khaowong1 said:

I have a couple of monks in Thailand I still talk to, I'll ask them and see if I can't get an answer we would understand.  Might take me a day or two.  

I'm waiting with baited breath, thanks.

[kokesaat]

There's some (dated) discussion of this on another forum https://www.udonmap.com/udonthaniforum/auspicious-days-t24490.html

 

To me, there are so many beliefs about these things......picking a lucky lottery number based on the license number of a visiting VIP, especially royal.  Picking a lucky lottery number based on your red new license plate or that of a vehicle that's been in a horrific crash.  Or picking a lottery number based on your dreams or the number that mysteriously appears on a banana plant that you 'see' after applying baby powder.  There are hundreds of reports of Thais who survive accidents who will swear it was the amulet around their neck that kept them safe.  

Long ago I learned that the bus drivers of many orange-crush bus drivers that ran long routes visited a temple just before departing.  Their driving behavior might leave you wondering whether they feared nothing because they placed their faith in having made merit just before leaving for a trip.

In Udon a few years ago there was an incident at an apartment complex where some people died.  The verdict:  the apartment was improperly facing a 3 way intersection.  

Many barber shops are closed or at limited barber-capacity on Wednesdays and my wife refuses to go to the hairdresser on Wed.    Most temples don't do funerals on Buddhist days.  I've known a fair number of village girls who have had their cesarean delivery scheduled at a particular time for good luck.  Lucky number license plates are auctioned off each year......often times for more than a million baht.  9999 seems to fetch the top price. 

Frangipani trees were normally not planted on private property as the Thai name ต้นลั่นทมนั้น meant sorrow and grief.  Some one came up with a new name ลีลาวดี and suddenly the same tree was okay to plant in your yard

When you mix in Buddhism, animism, shamanism, along with long-held traditional beliefs (Thai/Chinese/Lao/Burma), you get a hodgepodge of beliefs that are too confusing for me to understand.  

I'd be interested if anyone has put together a smorgasbord of these beliefs into a single book.

.

[Peter Denis]

4 hours ago, kokesaat said:

There's some (dated) discussion of this on another forum https://www.udonmap.com/udonthaniforum/auspicious-days-t24490.html

...

I'd be interested if anyone has put together a smorgasbord of these beliefs into a single book.

As I wrote earlier > there is much more to this matter than superstitious beliefs.

Thanks for the link, will check it out.

[Excel]

Yes it never fails to amaze me either  that given a large majority of the the so-called Thai monkhood are men hiding the justice system and/or carrying on out-with Buddhist beliefs, and the village generally are aware of these dubious character's past, yet still give them credit for coming up with auspicious dates.  Once a con-man always a con man perhaps ?

[bluesofa]

9 hours ago, kokesaat said:

There's some (dated) discussion of this on another forum https://www.udonmap.com/udonthaniforum/auspicious-days-t24490.html

I see there's a reference above to Chinese calendars showing these types of auspicious dates.

 

I did a search and found this:  https://www.chinesecalendaronline.com/   

A Chinese lunar calendar telling you clearly auspicious times and dates for house building, weddings, etc.

Looks like that's where all these dates come from.

 

At the bottom I can even search for auspicious dates for a various events, even a  haircut - remember Wednesdays is a no-no for haircutting.

 

However, in my particular example of 22 Feb at 08:19 to start building a house, that appears on this calendar as only for a sacrifice, and to avoid anything else.

I was hoping we'd got to the bottom of where the dates come from. Perhaps 'our' monk was using an old calendar, who knows?
He'd be aware that no one else locally would know, and wouldn't dare to question his knowledge.

 

Must be why monks all have mobile phones with internet access.

I was hoping to be able to cut out the monk middlemen and go directly to the source.

 

Edited February 27, 2021 by bluesofa

[Surasak]

On 2/24/2021 at 7:42 AM, bluesofa said:

Thanks for the insight into how it works.

 

Not that I can see why it should, but I am interested about any system used to arrive with these figures.

If it is lunar based, how does that fit in with the philosophy of buddhism, and why? I'm guessing it's part of the mumbo-jjumbo that's evolved down the (more recent) centuries?

You are getting close now. More Mumbo than Jumbo I should think!

[BusyB]

On 2/25/2021 at 1:32 AM, Peter Denis said:

In the West the notion that there is also something like the 'quality' of the time for starting something has been largely lost.

In Thailand (and other Far-Eastern countries) this notion is still very much alive and disposing it as 'mumbo-jumbo' only shows our Western arrogance and ignorance on matters which we are not familiar with because outside of our belief-system.

I am not saying that the monks determining that auspicious time are always 'in the know', but that doesn't mean that there is much more to this matter than superstitious beliefs.

 

Apparently my paternal great grandfather, who was an itinerant 'dentist' in England at the turn  of the last century, knew when the best time was to pick various herbs. It also had to do with moon phases.

I'm not convinced basically, but whatever. Secret 'knowledge' is always power over those who believe.

Edited February 27, 2021 by BusyB
corrections

[BusyB]

On 2/24/2021 at 5:01 PM, khaowong1 said:

You are correct, most of it is mumbo-jumbo.  I think most of the Buddhist holidays are centered around the full moon.  Probably because calender's back then were not very accurate and I'm pretty sure there were at least 2 different calender's used back then. And if I'm not mistaken, they also didn't have the days named yet, Monday, Tuesday, etc.  So again, we're down to mumbo-jumbo. 

 

 

This is all well and good, but do they not have some kind of tables, or diagrams (like astrology) with which they make their 'prognoses'?

I'm sure they don't sit around the temple yard trying to come up with the most ridiculous ideas for fooling the poor superstitious - surely they believe and have a system on which it's based?

I'd also be curious to know - maybe I'll ask a monk next time I'm in LOS.