Denmark, Norway and Iceland suspend AstraZeneca COVID shots after blood clot reports

[KhaoYai]

6 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Yes, it's very obvious.

The EMA is an advisory organisation. As the UK proved when we approved the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine whist still subject to all EU rules and regulations, EU members do not have to follow it's advice.

Both the EMA and the WHO are still recommending the use of the AstraZeneca vaccine. However, in light of the report from Norway's Medicines Agency I linked to previously and subsequent ones from elsewhere, both organisations are investigating these reports. EMA, WHO investigate reported clots with AstraZeneca vaccine

Semantics have nothing to do with it. If a country, e.g. Norway and Iceland, are not members of the EU then their politicians are not EU politicians!

As previously shown, but yet again ignored by you, politicians from various countries, some EU members, others not, are acting on the medical advice of their own health or other appropriate departments; such as Norway's Medicines Agency.

Nothing in the rest of your post changes any of that!

Pure points scoring - doesn't work on me.

[KhaoYai]

6 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Here's what Astrazeneca say:

https://www.astrazeneca.com/media-centre/press-releases/2021/update-on-the-safety-of-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca.html

Thanks for that, its a clear and understandable report - even to a layman.

No doubt there are those that will pour scorn on the report - claiming, 'they would say that, wouldn't they' - well I'm sure that the medical authorities of all countries will review it and test it against their own data. So we shall see.

I note Thailand had a change of heart today - Prayut having his first jab.  Amusingly, I got a conspiracy theorist friend (soon to be an ex friend if he carries on with this nonsense) claiming Prayut didn't really have it, it was all a publicity stunt. Clearly another member of the 'Flat Earth Society'.

[KhaoYai]

14 hours ago, RobMuir said:

They haven't just done an average job, they have the worst death rate in the world for countries with a population of over 12 million. 

Which is nothing to do with the MHRA or the JVCI - the UK's problems over Covid 19 are purely down to a Prime Minister who dithers and ignores his advisers. Much the same as politicians in the EU and other countries is doing now.

Edited March 16, 2021 by KhaoYai

[KhaoYai]

AstraZeneca vaccine: EU regulator 'firmly convinced' benefits outweigh risks

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56411561

Edited March 16, 2021 by KhaoYai

[7by7]

10 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Pure points scoring - doesn't work on me.

Point scoring? No.

Presenting verifiable facts to counter your false assumptions? Yes.

As you can no longer dispute those facts, no matter how hard you have tried, you have had to resort to the above comment.

All rather sad, really, as apart from your EU obsession you've made some excellent points!

 

[Hi from France]

42 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

AstraZeneca vaccine: EU regulator 'firmly convinced' benefits outweigh risks

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56411561

in the meantime

 

Astra Zeneca still is not authorized in the US.
The FDA asked for more information 

 

now they are sitting on... 3M doses

 

 

https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/fda-could-reject-astra-zeneca-s-covid-vaccine-efficacy-and-manufacturing-shortfalls-analyst

[KhaoYai]

8 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

All rather sad, really, as apart from your EU obsession you've made some excellent points!

EU Obsession - in general not at all, I didn't want the UK to leave the EU. However, in the last few months I've started to see a side of the EU that I don't like and the vaccine arguments have exacerbated my feelings towards them.

In this matter, I remain convinced that at least for member states, political motivation is playing a part.  That view is re-inforced when considered alongside the previous arguments over supply. When I say political motivation - I mean seizing hold of a genuine issue and milking it for all its worth, its just sour grapes over Brexit.  I don't think their claims are false, they are just ungrounded and in the midst of a Pandemic, quite frankly, baffling.

I've made no false claims -  you saying they are false doesn't make it so, its just your interpretaion.  When I offer my reasoning you just come back with your own 'counter claims'.  There are things I've written that you have clearly not fully understood and when I've pointed that out, you still don't

But you are entitled to your own opinion. I'm not going to say your claims are false - we clearly don't agree and that's fine.  Whatever the outcome of this 'blood clot' debacle, I hope that governments of countries that have halted the virus get their citizens vaccinated as soon as possible, with whatever vaccine they see fit. I fear the damage is done now and its tool late for AZ in those countries - could be good news for Africa though.

[KhaoYai]

4 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

Astra Zeneca still is not authorized in the US.

Going purely on the UK's results after starting the vaccine programme - its their loss.

Could it be an 'America First' thing?

[Hi from France]

54 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

I fear the damage is done now and its tool late for AZ in those countries - could be good news for Africa though.

Good news for Africa?

The AZ vaccine has many qualities, but it does not work for the South African variant, as you know. Given the relations between SA and the other countries of the continent this variant must be dominant except maybe in north Africa.

Quote

South Africa, which budgeted as much as R19.3 billion ($1.3 billion) to vaccinate two-thirds of its population, confronted a similar dilemma. After a small study indicated AstraZeneca’s shot offered minimal protection against mild to moderate illness caused by a new variant, it had to change course.

The government agreed to buy doses of both Johnson & Johnson’s single-shot vaccine as well as the Pfizer-BioNTech product at $10 each

https://businesstech.co.za/news/government/476342/south-africa-among-countries-left-with-a-massive-bill-from-fighting-for-covid-vaccine-scraps/

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Hi from France

[candide]

7 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

EU Obsession - in general not at all, I didn't want the UK to leave the EU. However, in the last few months I've started to see a side of the EU that I don't like and the vaccine arguments have exacerbated my feelings towards them.

In this matter, I remain convinced that at least for member states, political motivation is playing a part.  That view is re-inforced when considered alongside the previous arguments over supply. When I say political motivation - I mean seizing hold of a genuine issue and milking it for all its worth, its just sour grapes over Brexit.  I don't think their claims are false, they are just ungrounded and in the midst of a Pandemic, quite frankly, baffling.

I've made no false claims -  you saying they are false doesn't make it so, its just your interpretaion.  When I offer my reasoning you just come back with your own 'counter claims'.  There are things I've written that you have clearly not fully understood and when I've pointed that out, you still don't

But you are entitled to your own opinion. I'm not going to say your claims are false - we clearly don't agree and that's fine.  Whatever the outcome of this 'blood clot' debacle, I hope that governments of countries that have halted the virus get their citizens vaccinated as soon as possible, with whatever vaccine they see fit. I fear the damage is done now and its tool late for AZ in those countries - could be good news for Africa though.

Puting apart the fact that the country which started all this mess was not a EU member state (Norway), something does not make sense in the Brexit sour grape political revenge hypothesis.

Facts are that (1) the order has already been paid in advance. EU member States have no possibility to change the order. It's been paid and will be delivered (some day). There is no benefit in damaging AZ's reputation on this respect. (2) there is a shortage of all vaccine brands until at least the end if this year. So there is no short-term possibility to substitute one brand by another. 

[GrandPapillon]

looks like most EU countries have now banned AZ, despite the EU Medical Agency saying everything is fine

the EU procurement and distribution of Covid vaccine has been a total failure, 

[KhaoYai]

30 minutes ago, candide said:

Puting apart the fact that the country which started all this mess was not a EU member state (Norway), something does not make sense in the Brexit sour grape political revenge hypothesis.

Then why do they choose to ignore the advice of their own regulator?

I am aware that Norway is not a member of the EU.  I am just saying that it is possible that some EU politicians latched on to the situation for political reasons.  Political reasons were not the cause of the current debate but I believe that some are using the blood clot issue, now that its arisen, for political purposes.

The head of Italy's medicines regulator also says that the suspension of the AZ vaccine is political.  He does not expand on what those political aims might be though.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-astrazeneca/suspension-of-astrazeneca-shots-is-political-decision-italys-medicines-regulator-head-idUSKBN2B80KK

The fact that the EU's vaccine orders are already paid for makes no difference.  Politicians regularly waste public money - it doesn't come out of their pockets so they don't care.

Boris Johnson has spent £37 billion on the UK's Track and Trace programme and it has failed miserably.

Unrelated but to illustrate how they waste money without a care - Boris Johnson spent £53 million just carrying out the preliminary investigations, contract quotes etc. etc. on his fantasy 'Garden Bridge' when he was London's Mayor.  The project was then cancelled.

£53 million and not a skip of cement mixed!!!! and we, like idiots, voted him into power as Prime Minister!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47228698

Edited March 16, 2021 by KhaoYai

[KhaoYai]

17 minutes ago, GrandPapillon said:

the EU procurement and distribution of Covid vaccine has been a total failure, 

Sadly, it seems so.

[candide]

28 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

Then why do they choose to ignore the advice of their own regulator?

I am aware that Norway is not a member of the EU.  I am just saying that it is possible that some EU politicians latched on to the situation for political reasons.  Political reasons were not the cause of the current debate but I believe that some are using the blood clot issue, now that its arisen, for political purposes.

The head of Italy's medicines regulator also says that the suspension of the AZ vaccine is political.  He does not expand on what those political aims might be though.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-astrazeneca/suspension-of-astrazeneca-shots-is-political-decision-italys-medicines-regulator-head-idUSKBN2B80KK

The fact that the EU's vaccine orders are already paid for makes no difference.  Politicians regularly waste public money - it doesn't come out of their pockets so they don't care.

Boris Johnson has spent £37 billion on the UK's Track and Trace programme and it has failed miserably.

Unrelated but to illustrate how they waste money without a care - Boris Johnson spent £53 million just carrying out the preliminary investigations, contract quotes etc. etc. on his fantasy 'Garden Bridge' when he was London's Mayor.  The project was then cancelled.

£53 million and not a skip of cement mixed!!!! and we, like idiots, voted him into power as Prime Minister!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-47228698

Well, one obvious political dimension is the domestic public opinion. 

As information about it has been abundantly flowing, governments don't want to be seen as being negligent and want to show they are very cautious. On top of it, as the anti-vaccine movement is not insignificant, it makes sense not to look as covering up possible vaccine flaws.

[Hi from France]

4 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

looks like most EU countries have now banned AZ, despite the EU Medical Agency saying everything is fine

the EU procurement and distribution of Covid vaccine has been a total failure, 

Exaggerating a bit aren't we?

 

OK: Act 1 is not a success

[irishman25]

23 hours ago, Jeffr2 said:

That's not true.  AZ has not applied to the FDA for approval yet as it's clinical trials aren't completed.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/15/health/astra-zeneca-vaccine-blood-clots-bleeding.html

While more than 70 countries have authorized the vaccine, the United States has not. AstraZeneca has not yet applied to the Food and Drug Administration for authorization and is waiting for results from its U.S. trial that enrolled more than 32,000 participants.

An announcement from AstraZeneca about those results could come soon: The data from that trial are under review by an independent panel of experts, Dr. Francis Collins, the director of the National Institutes of Health, told Reuters on Monday.

every day Europe holds back the vaccine it is another month wasted they will not Recover now late in November 2021 just wait and see. Now the UK. and America will be on the road 85% recovery by summertime.  

[mommysboy]

7 hours ago, Hi from France said:

in the meantime

 

Astra Zeneca still is not authorized in the US.
The FDA asked for more information 

 

now they are sitting on... 3M doses

 

 

https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/fda-could-reject-astra-zeneca-s-covid-vaccine-efficacy-and-manufacturing-shortfalls-analyst

The general consensus is the extensive trial is nearing the point where a result can be declared. It is of course done on the old sub optimal dosing strategy and so is of limited value. There are again no safety issues nor have been on any trial.

At the now generally accepted dosing strategy it is 82% effective.  Real world data trumps all.  Nobody except you is doubting its effectiveness.

Authorization is anticipated.

USA was not keen on letting go of its stockpile.

[mommysboy]

No matter what EU countries decide, you are still left with explaining why AZ is so dramatically successful in the UK, where its performance (including clotting problems) matches the Pfizer jab. 

The drop in hospital admissions and deaths has been sensational. The trouble is if you don't have an alternative you are sacrificing  1000 deaths (or more) in order not to provoke 1 death.

There is a definite problem of atypical blood clotting seen in Germany for instance, and ordinarily that really is concerning. Yet it's likely these people still had the underlying cause and whilst not coincidental, the vaccine is only really the trigger.  It would be more fruitful to try and identify these unfortunates, and it would not be a bad place to start with people who perhaps have had covid 19 already.  Covid 19 is in fact known to be associated with this type of unusual clotting.  Healthcare workers are known to be at 10 times more risk.

 

[Hi from France]

5 hours ago, mommysboy said:

No matter what EU countries decide, you are still left with explaining why AZ is so dramatically successful in the UK, where its performance (including clotting problems) matches the Pfizer jab. 

Simple : EU countries will decide to go on with AZ, but many will fear this vaccine. Especially In the few days after being injected. 

 

If I get it right, AZ is 17% of total vaccinations (Germany). 

 

So we'll just hobble along : if people have a choice, they won't take the AZ. But right now, we simply don't, so there are lots of people like me ready for any jab. 

 

Very extensive article

Why home-produced Covid vaccine hasn't helped India, Russia and China rollouts

 

Quote

As vaccinations rates soar in Israel, the UK, the United Arab Emirates and other countries that have monopolised supply, and poorer nations make do with a trickle of doses, a third category are beginning long climbs. Supply is less of an issue in Russia, China or India, all of which produce their own vaccines. But their respective government programmes have had slow starts, and there has been little public clamour to speed things up.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/17/why-covid-vaccine-home-produced-india-russia-china-slow-start?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

[7by7]

15 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

EU Obsession - in general not at all, I didn't want the UK to leave the EU. However, in the last few months I've started to see a side of the EU that I don't like and the vaccine arguments have exacerbated my feelings towards them.

In this matter, I remain convinced that at least for member states, political motivation is playing a part.  That view is re-inforced when considered alongside the previous arguments over supply. When I say political motivation - I mean seizing hold of a genuine issue and milking it for all its worth, its just sour grapes over Brexit.  I don't think their claims are false, they are just ungrounded and in the midst of a Pandemic, quite frankly, baffling.

I've made no false claims -  you saying they are false doesn't make it so, its just your interpretaion.  When I offer my reasoning you just come back with your own 'counter claims'.  There are things I've written that you have clearly not fully understood and when I've pointed that out, you still don't

But you are entitled to your own opinion. I'm not going to say your claims are false - we clearly don't agree and that's fine.  Whatever the outcome of this 'blood clot' debacle, I hope that governments of countries that have halted the virus get their citizens vaccinated as soon as possible, with whatever vaccine they see fit. I fear the damage is done now and its tool late for AZ in those countries - could be good news for Africa though.

 Yet again you are (deliberately?) confusing the acts of individual, sovereign nations, many of whom are EU members, with that of the EU itself.

15 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

I'm not going to say your claims are false

Well of course not; because, unlike you on this point, I have presented facts to support what you call my claims; all you have presented is your unsubstantiated opinion.

As I said before, that you are still saying

15 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

its just sour grapes over Brexit.

is a pity, as much else of what you have posted here makes sense.

[KhaoYai]

12 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

Well of course not; because, unlike you on this point, I have presented facts to support what you call my claims; all you have presented is your unsubstantiated opinion.

You can lead a horse to water........................................................

[placeholder]

14 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

looks like most EU countries have now banned AZ, despite the EU Medical Agency saying everything is fine

the EU procurement and distribution of Covid vaccine has been a total failure, 

Really? A total failure? I believe the figure I saw was that 15% of the vaccine being used by the EU comes from Astra Zeneca. The other 85 percent doesn't count?

[7by7]

14 hours ago, GrandPapillon said:

looks like most EU countries have now banned AZ, despite the EU Medical Agency saying everything is fine

the EU procurement and distribution of Covid vaccine has been a total failure, 

No country has banned the use of the AstraZeneca vaccine; though 18 temporarily suspended it's use. Some, like Thailand, have since reinstated it. (Source)

Of those 18, 13 are EU members; which is just under half, not most.

The UK has, inarguably, handled the vaccine roll out better than the EU. But remember it was the Pfizer/BioNTech vaccine which we authorised first. 

That the manufacturers of the AstraZeneca and Pfizer/BioNTech vaccines have, for whatever reasons, reneged on their deals with the EU and reduced the number of doses available to them is not the EU's fault.

[7by7]

10 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

You can lead a horse to water........................................................

....but you can't make it drink.

You can lead KhaoYai to knowledge, but you can't make him think.

Other than that; I refer you to the responses made to you previously.

[KhaoYai]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

....but you can't make it drink.

You can lead KhaoYai to knowledge, but you can't make him think.

Other than that; I refer you to the responses made to you previously.

I have provided links from official sources and reliable news sources to substantiate most of what I have written yet you claim your information is factual and mine is unsubstantiated?

I don't make unsubstantiated claims but I do pass opinion. The only item in my posts that is opinion is the matter of political motivation on the part of the EU.  If you want me to be absolutely clear on that - I believe that many of the problems that politicians within the EU, its member states and possibly some nearby non-members, have with the AZ vaccine are politically motivated.

I think they stem from, in some part the fact that the UK has left the EU and in other ways to try and cover up the inadequencies in their own vaccine programmes, which some have now made worse by halting the AZ vaccine. 

First there were arguments over supply and claims that the UK was being treated more favourably. Then when they did get deliveries, some EU members claimed that the vaccine was not sufficiently tested for over 65's and stopped that part of their programme.  Marcon is on record as stating that in general, the AZ vaccine is 'quasi ineffective' - when trial results show it is 100% effective at preventing severe disease, hospitalisation and death due to Covid 19. Now we have some EU members (and other non EU countries) temporarily halting their AZ vaccine programme entirely over suspicions it causes blood clots when their own regulator says there's no evidence and the benefits far outweigh any potential disadvantages.

https://www.astrazeneca.com/media-centre/press-releases/2021/covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca-confirms-protection-against-severe-disease-hospitalisation-and-death-in-the-primary-analysis-of-phase-iii-trials.html

If you don't feel there is any political motivation behind all this, that's up to you but I would suggest you read up on Macron's recent history regarding the AZ vaccine as just one example.

All this against a background of a very poor vaccine roll out in the EU where in some states cases and deaths are rising and new lockdowns being announced - whereas in the UK the vaccine roll out has surpassed all expectations and we are reaping the benefits.

I am not alone in my suspicions of political motivation but I repeat, they are an opinion, an opinion that I am free to hold by the way.

What I would really like to see is an end to this whole matter and the EU vaccinate its citizens.

The UK may well have approved the Pfizer vaccine first but in terms of application, without searching for the figures, I'd suggest the actual rollout is close to 50/50.  I have work to do but I'm sure you'll check that as I'm making 'unsubsantiated claims'.

You can post away - and I'm sure you will but until there is any news on this matter, I've said all I'm going to say.

[placnx]

On 3/15/2021 at 6:46 PM, gargamon said:

That doesn't mean there aren't some bad batches out there that may have caused clotting issues. I for one decided that I wouldn't take the AZ vaccine after S. Africa halted the use of the AZ vaccine since it was not effective against the S. African variant. 

But then, I'm getting the Pfizer jab tomorrow...

Foreigners in Thailand might have to get the Pfizer jab from a private hospital, but how would these hospitals get the vaccine anytime soon when there's a backlog of orders? Are there "distributors" with doses available? Can we be sure it's the real thing?

[Hi from France]

11 hours ago, irishman25 said:

every day Europe holds back the vaccine it is another month 

"every day is a month" ?

I suppose you (or the guys who applaud your post) can prove that?

[Hi from France]

11 hours ago, mommysboy said:

At the now generally accepted dosing strategy it is 82% effective.  Real world data trumps all.  Nobody except you is doubting its effectiveness.

"Nobody except me is doubting its effectiveness."? What?

 

bold claim, I think you'll have no trouble backing it ?

Edited March 17, 2021 by Hi from France

[gargamon]

40 minutes ago, placnx said:

Foreigners in Thailand might have to get the Pfizer jab from a private hospital, but how would these hospitals get the vaccine anytime soon when there's a backlog of orders? Are there "distributors" with doses available? Can we be sure it's the real thing?

At no point did I say I was currently in Thailand... My Pfizer jab was uneventful.

Edited March 17, 2021 by gargamon

[Hi from France]

17 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Sadly, it seems so.

not a total failure, there are some huge failures (I'd say some developing countries, and to a certain extend Bolsonaro or Trump) but yes, we have been quite suboptimal, to say the least.

Quite on the naive side on the procurement, assuming that commitments would be met without acting strongly enough.

 

Even now, I think that grouping our procurement was better than having each of the 27 compete with one another driving prices up and increasing the mess and the tensions.

Unfortunately this strategy left the road open for the UK to skip the line, this really should be a lesson. ????

 

now this is not a total failure, as I said AZ has been suspended (like 4 days ?) while the other vaccines go ahead

 

and anyway we have 70% of AZ's delivery commitments not met.

 

Maybe you saw the situation in France: we are one the verge of one more lock down, in the short term a bit more jabs would not change that

 

source : https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus

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