Denmark, Norway and Iceland suspend AstraZeneca COVID shots after blood clot reports

[7by7]

16 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

As I have already said - I believe this matter goes far deeper than the latest blood clot matter. The problems began when the EU claimed that the UK was getting more favourable treatment from Astra Zeneca.  That wasn't individual countries, that was the EU as a whole.

We are all in this together and we should all learn from each other.  Political differences and sour grapes should be set aside.

The facts prove it has nothing to do with EU sour grapes.

The manufacturers told the EU that due to production problems they could only supply less than half of the contracted doses; despite the EU paying AstraZeneca hundreds of millions of euros in advance in order to expedite production ahead of the vaccine's official approval.

Meanwhile, despite their claimed production problems, we were receiving all of our contracted supplies from the company's factory in Germany.

Little wonder that the EU were annoyed!

See Fact check: Is AstraZeneca in breach of its EU contract?

[ukrules]

20 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Have you looked at the latest figures on deaths and infections from the UK - compared to pre-vaccine? Not prudent?

The scare mongering in the EU has created significant suspicion - so much so that Germany has only used 10% of its AZ stock - that's what I would say is 'not prudent'.

The UK's response to the Pandemic was at best, poor but its administration of the vaccine has been beyond all expectations.

Last time I looked - vaccine uptake in the UK was running at over 90% - in France its what? 70%?

Edit: Possibly less than 70% and here's one of the reasons why.

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/2021/02/why-france-getting-covid-19-vaccination-so-wrong

 

It is interesting isn't it. I note that Italy begins a new lockdown on Monday.

Facing a new onslaught of COVID they just sit there and watch.

[placeholder]

 

8 hours ago, donnacha said:

Once, just once, I would love to see you post something in this forum that wasn't completely <deleted>-backwards.

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/health/covid19-vaccine-oxford-ireland-brexit-19672792

 

Austria and Denmark don't seem to agree:

Austria breaks ranks with EU to produce vaccines with Denmark, Israel

Austria broke ranks with the European Union on Tuesday and said it would work together with Israel and Denmark to produce second-generation vaccines against mutations of the coronavirus.

Chancellor Sebastian Kurz said Austria and Denmark, as members of the First Mover Group founded by Kurz, would work with Israel on vaccine production against mutations of the coronavirus and jointly research treatment options.

The announcement is a rebuke to the EU's joint vaccine procurement programme for member states which has been criticised for being too slow to agree deals with manufacturers.

https://autos.yahoo.com/austria-breaks-ranks-eu-produce-084512890.html

And the reason you're resorting to a general insult is because I've repeatedly cited evidence to show your comments on various subjects had no basis in fact. So on this one occasion, when you think you've got me, you reply instead of the usual non-answer which is the forum equivalent of running away. 

Edited March 13, 2021 by placeholder

[ukrules]

7 hours ago, mommysboy said:

Unfortunately it's a gamble we need to take as a society imo.

There's a clear choice, COVID deaths in the 1000's each week every few months along with ongoing lockdowns or mass vaccinations.

It's up to them, I like the route the UK have taken.

As the EU prepares for more lockdowns every few months life will return to normal in the UK very soon, perhaps a lot quicker than anyone expects.

Just watch as the numbers of deaths in places like Italy, France, Germany and perhaps Spain rise above those from the UK over the next 6 months or so.

Edited March 13, 2021 by ukrules

[KhaoYai]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

The facts prove it has nothing to do with EU sour grapes.

Many will disagree.

I could easily counter your link with one with an opposing view but we have both made our positions clear and I'm not prepared to turn this into an EU/Brexit circus.

The main point is that a miniscule proportion of those vaccinated with the AZ vaccine in Europe have encountered problems with blood clots.  At the last count 2 had died out of 5 million vaccinations.

When Germany raised concerns over the lack of testing in the over 65's age group - it created unfounded suspicions.  The same will happen this time and no doubt it will cause people to either opt for a different vaccine or refuse a vaccine altogether.

For some reason humans latch on to bad news far more than good.

This unfounded publicity is good for no-one.

Edited March 13, 2021 by KhaoYai

[candide]

2 hours ago, KhaoYai said:

Overall, it seems clear that all of the EU's problems with the AZ vaccine are politically motivated.

Why are they politically motivated?

Several scientific studies have lead governments to be cautious about the AZ vaccine. These studies are not political. Moreover, other governments outside the EU have shared the same concern. For example, Australia only granted a provisional approval to AZ vaccine mid-february. Was Autralia political, too?

The other disagreement was simply about AZ not delivering the required quantities, -despite the fact that a prepayment of €336 million was made in August to finance the order-while at the same time delivering full orders to other customers. Is it political to be angry about it?

I am not saying the Commission and member states managed this issue in the best way, far from it. But I don't see how it is political re Brexit.

Edited March 13, 2021 by candide

[KhaoYai]

4 minutes ago, candide said:

Why are they politically motivated?

Sorry, my EU discussions are over.

[placeholder]

11 hours ago, donnacha said:

That is a monumental achievement on the single most important task so far in this decade for any country. It is not an exaggeration to say that the UK economy's early emergence from lockdown is going to be a game-changer, at a crucial time, in terms of how the world perceives the new UK and the confidence the British people feel about themselves.

Well, you've got yourself an advertising campaign but as for substance, not so much. The early defeat of Covid  will give Britain a temporary boost which it definitely needs since it's fallen further behind thanks to Covid and Brexit. 

[Hi from France]

2 hours ago, ukrules said:

Just watch as the numbers of deaths in places like Italy, France, Germany and perhaps Spain rise above those from the UK over the next 6 months or so.

Well right now in France we're still 30.000 deaths "late" on the UK, but we're trying our best, and the British variant is helping,

 

and in addition to the issues mentioned on this thread AstraZeneca just announced new "delivery problems". Which should mean the UK will be served first again.

 

[ukrules]

2 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

Well right now in France we're still 30.000 deaths "late" on the UK, but we're trying our best, and the British variant is helping,

 

and in addition to the issues mentioned on this thread AstraZeneca just announced new "delivery problems". Which should mean the UK will be served first again.

 

You'll get there in the end.

[mommysboy]

22 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

Well right now in France we're still 30.000 deaths "late" on the UK, but we're trying our best, and the British variant is helping,

 

and in addition to the issues mentioned on this thread AstraZeneca just announced new "delivery problems". Which should mean the UK will be served first again.

 

UK has only used 12 million AZ vaccines.  It's not sitting on huge stockpiles.

I'm not sure it would have gone down too well in the UK if we had kept 1 million ourselves and given 11 million to EU.  And what would be the benefit really?  Another 500,000 sitting on a shelf in France or Germany! 

 

[candide]

52 minutes ago, Hi from France said:

Well right now in France we're still 30.000 deaths "late" on the UK, but we're trying our best, and the British variant is helping,

 

and in addition to the issues mentioned on this thread AstraZeneca just announced new "delivery problems". Which should mean the UK will be served first again.

 

By searching about this issue, I found quite interesting information.

https://www.fiercepharma.com/pharma/astrazeneca-again-cuts-first-quarter-coronavirus-vaccine-delivery-target-europe-reuters

The first is that AZ is evoking export restrictions from other countries to justify cutting deliveries. They don't tell which countries are restricting exports to the EU.

The other one is the following: 

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/11/us/politics/coronavirus-astrazeneca-united-states.html

"WASHINGTON — Tens of millions of doses of the coronavirus vaccine made by the British-Swedish company AstraZeneca are sitting idly in American manufacturing facilities, awaiting results from its U.S. clinical trial while countries that have authorized its use beg for access.

The fate of those doses of AstraZeneca’s vaccine is the subject of an intense debate among White House and federal health officials, with some arguing the administration should let them go abroad where they are desperately needed while others are not ready to relinquish them, according to senior administration officials."

 

[Hi from France]

56 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

I'm not sure it would have gone down too well in the UK if we had kept 1 million ourselves and given 11 million to EU.  And what would be the benefit really?  Another 500,000 sitting on a shelf in France or Germany! 

I take your point

Now the serious/acute problem is the handling of the public relations side of this additional crisis in the context of Brexit.

 

But we are not supposed to talk about it on this thread, as our posts are deleted.

[godonnet]

Today 3 public health workers in Norway have been admitted to hospital in Oslo due do blood clots less than 14 days after taking the AZ vaccine. In addition, there has been several reports on skin-bleeding in younger people in Norway. 

The Norwegian Drug-administration is now requesting people who has been given the vaccine the last 14 days to go to the local emergency facility if they feel sick or get larger or smaller skin-defects

 

Link(in norwegian):

https://www.nrk.no/norge/tre-helsearbeidere-innlagt-med-blodpropp-_-undersoker-sammenheng-med-koronavaksine-1.15416231

Link with google translate:

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&u=https://www.nrk.no/norge/tre-helsearbeidere-innlagt-med-blodpropp-_-undersoker-sammenheng-med-koronavaksine-1.15416231

Edited March 13, 2021 by godonnet

[Hi from France]

Meanwhile in France after the setback of the recombinant protein-based vaccine developed with Britain’s GSK (version 1 was not good enough and testing for version 2 is only in phase 2, with hopes to launch it in late 2021), they are starting tests with the Messenger RNA technology (also used in the Pfizer/BioNTech and Moderna) 

 

Hopes to launch it in late 2021, so probably too late to be useful 

https://www.fiercebiotech.com/biotech/sanofi-hit-by-gsk-covid-vaccine-setback-kickstarts-mrna-trial-translate-bio

 

 

Quote

Sanofi has also agreed to help produce Covid vaccines developed by Pfizer and Johnson & Johnson.

 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Hi from France

[Hi from France]

Reading that 

Quote

Famously, Boris Johnson, Matt Hancock and Dominic Cummings contracted the virus. So did England’s chief medical officer, Prof Chris Whitty, and the then cabinet secretary, Mark Sedwill. Ministers and their staff had it. Almost all the staff in Downing Street, too.

 

It spread to special advisers across Whitehall and to parliamentary lobby journalists. Although the Palace of Westminster escaped any mass outbreaks among staff, several MPs caught Covid. Many in the office of the Labour leader, including Seumas Milne, had it. Jeremy Corbyn may have had it, although he was never tested and so has never been sure.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/12/no-10-plague-pit-how-covid-brought-westminster-to-its-knees

 

I'm reminded that we are talking about the success of the vaccination in the UK, but we also need to consider than with the very large number of people catching the disease, Covid-19 had, to a large extent, run its course. 

More than 21% of the population, I gather? 

[onebir]

On 3/12/2021 at 5:06 PM, KhaoYai said:

I have to say though that I'd have been happy to have either the AZ or Pfizer vaccines.

I won't trust the lipid nanoarticle vector platforms until they've been in the wild for about 2 years, just in case they turn out to cause auto-immune disease. (I believe there were issues with that in some of their animal trials.)

Adenovirus vector platforms (in AZ & Sputnik) have at least been around a lot longer.

[onebir]

On 3/12/2021 at 10:51 AM, Hi from France said:

The UK went full steam ahead injecting this vaccine to its own population but this was not prudent... 

I don't think vaccinating a big chunk of a country's population, especially health/other key workers, with any single vaccine under emergency use authorization can be described as prudent ????

[Hi from France]

11 hours ago, placeholder said:

Well, you've got yourself an advertising campaign but as for substance, not so much. The early defeat of Covid  will give Britain a temporary boost which it definitely needs since it's fallen further behind thanks to Covid and Brexit. 

Britain has not only lost 130.000 victims of Covid-19 (much more according to excess mortality studies), but 1.000.000 younger (mostly working) people have left the country last year. 

What is the GDP generated by this million people? Will some of them come back despite the "hostile environment" policy? 

Edited March 13, 2021 by Hi from France

[placeholder]

5 hours ago, Hi from France said:

Reading that 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/12/no-10-plague-pit-how-covid-brought-westminster-to-its-knees

 

I'm reminded that we are talking about the success of the vaccination in the UK, but we also need to consider than with the very large number of people catching the disease, Covid-19 had, to a large extent, run its course. 

More than 21% of the population, I gather? 

Covid had run its course? Epidemiologists largely agree that at least 70% of the population needs to have been infected for herd immunity to take effect. 21% is nowhere near that number. In addition, as studies in Israel show, when enough of the elderly have been vaccinated, a smaller percentage of them show symptoms than to younger cohorts.

[Scott]

An inflammatory post has been reported and removed. 

 

[Rimmer]

A couple of conspiracy troll post have been removed also replies

[7by7]

On 3/13/2021 at 11:41 AM, KhaoYai said:

On 3/13/2021 at 10:38 AM, 7by7 said:

The facts prove it has nothing to do with EU sour grapes.

Many will disagree.

I could easily counter your link with one with an opposing view 

The information contained in the link I posted and quotes from same are not anyone's opinion or view; they are facts. 

On 3/13/2021 at 11:41 AM, KhaoYai said:

but we have both made our positions clear and I'm not prepared to turn this into an EU/Brexit circus.

Then why did you attempt to so do?

On 3/12/2021 at 1:34 PM, KhaoYai said:

It is about vaccines but with respect, do you not think that some of the EU's 'problems' with the AZ vaccine are Brexit related? 

 

[KhaoYai]

1 hour ago, 7by7 said:

Then why did you attempt to so do?

I didn't. I was quite clear in my response to a moderator who didn't want this becoming a Brexit discussion - and rightly so. Whereas I understood and agreed with his reasoning, I don't think its possible to completely separate this matter from the worsening relationship between the EU and Brexit.

I believe the recent  spats between the EU/UK and Astra Zeneca are Brexit related and I'm not alone.

You don't agree and that's your right. End of chat.

Edited March 14, 2021 by KhaoYai

[stevenl]

2 minutes ago, KhaoYai said:

I didn't.

So your saying this ""It is about vaccines but with respect, do you not think that some of the EU's 'problems' with the AZ vaccine are Brexit related? " was not about EU/Brexit.

[KhaoYai]

2 minutes ago, stevenl said:

So your saying this ""It is about vaccines but with respect, do you not think that some of the EU's 'problems' with the AZ vaccine are Brexit related? " was not about EU/Brexit.

Read my edit.

[KhaoYai]

3 hours ago, stevenl said:

So your saying this ""It is about vaccines but with respect, do you not think that some of the EU's 'problems' with the AZ vaccine are Brexit related? " was not about EU/Brexit.

I'm fully aware of what I wrote, what I'm saying is that I have raised my concerns and that's done, I don't think discussion is the same as it becoming a 'circus' - its been discussed.

[Hi from France]

16 hours ago, placeholder said:

Covid had run its course? Epidemiologists largely agree that at least 70% of the population needs to have been infected for herd immunity to take effect. 21% is nowhere near that number. In addition, as studies in Israel show, when enough of the elderly have been vaccinated, a smaller percentage of them show symptoms than to younger cohorts.

21% was an estimate last December, so you'd need to update that with three more months of a big wave. 

... Then add the % vaccinated, remove the double count of those who both caught Covid-19 and were vaccinated. So less than 36% as of today. 

Herd immunity is 60-70%,depending on many factors .

 

So even if herd immunity is not yet fully operational, the UK is not very far. 

Now an epidemiologist can do much better than me.. 

[KhaoYai]

Apparently Ireland has now halted administration of the Astra Zeneca vaccine.

Their reasoning is here:

Ireland's deputy chief medical officer Dr Ronan Glynn said new information had been received from the Norwegian Medicines Agency on Saturday night and that, while there is no conclusion that there's a link to the AstraZenica vaccine, the decision to suspend the vaccine programme came from "an abundance of caution".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56391818

Unless new evidence comes to light, I think the UK's attitude to the matter, given the current emergency situation is far more sensible.

Prof Adam Finn, a member of the UK's Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI), warned that, given evidence of the vaccine's "real-world effectiveness", a "stop-start approach" to the vaccine programme needed to be considered carefully.

"If clear evidence of serious or life threatening side-effects emerges that will have important consequences," he said.

"However so far it hasn't and it's highly undesirable to disrupt a complex and urgent programme every time people develop illnesses after receiving vaccine that may be coincidental and not causally related."

Last week, after Iceland, Norway and Denmark suspended the use of the Oxford-AstraZeneca, the MHRA said people should continue to get vaccinated.

"Blood clots can occur naturally and are not uncommon. More than 11 million doses of the Covid-19 AstraZeneca vaccine have now been administered across the UK," said Phil Bryan of the MHRA.

"People should still go and get their Covid-19 vaccine when asked to do so."

The Public Health Agency in NI said it would "closely monitor" the situation.

"From our perspective the vaccine is safe and we're continuing to use it," said Dr Stephen Bergin, interim Director of Public Health.

"We've had good experience over the last three months now, we've had over 600,000 people vaccinated, not all of course with this particular vaccine."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-56391818

The BBC article also quotes Stephen Donnelly on Twitter as saying:

The decision to temporarily suspend use of the AstraZeneca Covid-19 vaccine was based on new information from Norway that emerged late last night. This is a precautionary step. The National Immunisation Advisory Comm meets again this morning and we’ll provide an update after that

It would be interesting to know what the new information from Norway is.

 

Edited March 14, 2021 by KhaoYai

[KhaoYai]

On 3/13/2021 at 10:38 AM, 7by7 said:

The facts prove it has nothing to do with EU sour grapes.

The manufacturers told the EU that due to production problems they could only supply less than half of the contracted doses; despite the EU paying AstraZeneca hundreds of millions of euros in advance in order to expedite production ahead of the vaccine's official approval.

Meanwhile, despite their claimed production problems, we were receiving all of our contracted supplies from the company's factory in Germany.

Little wonder that the EU were annoyed!

See Fact check: Is AstraZeneca in breach of its EU contract?

Sorry, I didn't get chance to read the link you provided at the time. I think we've finished with the AZ/EU debate but as you provided the link, I thought it only fair to respond rather than appear to be being selective.

On reading it I find it interesting that it is dated 27/01/21. and it fails to mention that at that time the EU hadn't approved the Astra Zeneca vaccine. It was approved on 29/01/21, a month after the UK approved it.

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/ema-recommends-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca-authorisation-eu

I can't comment on Astra Zeneca's explanations regarding the delays, they may or may not be true but if I was their distribution manager with 1 order paid for and approved and another paid for but pending approval, I know which I'd ship. Its important to consider that once shipped, obligations regarding continuance for second doses would surely have to be taken into account.

The product also has a shelf life, it would not make sense to produce it then leave it sitting in a warehouse awaiting approval.

Whatever the truth is, the EU may not have experienced the same delays if they'd got their act together, ordered and approved the AZ vaccine as fast as the UK did.

FYI, the UK ordered the AZ vaccine in May 2020, the EU ordered it in August 2020.

Edited March 14, 2021 by KhaoYai