Planting Fruit Trees

[fredwiggy]

Trying to have at least one of every variety of tropical fruit trees in our yard. Some are growing well, yet others are dying very soon after planting. Watering daily (I've heard too much water isn't good, but this is Thailand ,and the rainy season has almost constant rain, so that's a mystery to me), fertilizing, weeding around trees. I dig the hole at least a half a foot deeper than where the small trees roots end, so they can grow down, and to the sides. The ground here is either like soup when wet, or hard as concrete, so I do water daily. The trees that are doing well are just a short space from some that are dying, so that's the mystery. This was a rice field before we raised the dirt to build the house, and where the trees are planted are the same area and height of soil as where the house sits. Any ideas will be appreciated.

[Tarteso]

I am not a professional farmer but;

I planted in January on an old rice field after leaving it chemical free for 3 years.  Do you have irrigation canals?  In my case the water maintains the continuous humidity sufficient to grow Lamyais, Avocados, mangoes and bananas.  I have cow droppings to feed the roots.  The result is not clear to me, but at the moment they are growing. ????

Edited March 16, 2021 by Tarteso

[fredwiggy]

No canals, just level land next to the house, so I water the plants, and grass I've been growing, usually twice daily, in this dry season.

[Tarteso]

4 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

No canals, just level land next to the house, so I water the plants, and grass I've been growing, usually twice daily, in this dry season.

Where come from the water?
Why not install a Drip irrigation ?  

 

[fredwiggy]

I have a well, and pump, to water. It takes over an hour twice daily but that's okay by me.

[Tagged]

What did you mix in to the dirt in the hole with? Dig 3 times bigger hole than the three need, mix in flower pot/vegetable dirt with buffalo <deleted> and cut rice gras/straw. On top you put rice husk. Some trees need partly shades as well. Give alot of water in the evening instead of the morning and daytime. At least we had goid resoults so far

[fredwiggy]

I'm trying to keep the trees watered, even though I've read the roots need to dry before watering again. That's what doesn't make sense to me, here in Thailand, because the rainy season sees soil constantly wet, and the trees thrive. The soil in some spots is very hard, so I've tried to put the trees where it's a little looser, and dig almost a foot deeper than the bottom of the root ball, so they have a chance to go down and to the sides. I just don't understand why some trees are doing well, and some aren't. They start healthy, and in a short time, the leaves start curling or falling off, then it's over. The other trees are doing pretty good, and close by. I do water more in the evening so the water doesn't evaporate too quickly. The Lomyai aren't doing well, while the Jackfruit, mango, papaya, and banana are doing okay. I'm using 16-16-16 all around the yard. I was thinking of chicken poop also.

[djayz]

15 minutes ago, fredwiggy said:

I'm trying to keep the trees watered, even though I've read the roots need to dry before watering again. That's what doesn't make sense to me, here in Thailand, because the rainy season sees soil constantly wet, and the trees thrive

I'm no expert, but from my understanding, young trees can suffer from root rot if watered too much. 

[fredwiggy]

That's what I was thinking.It's more likely too much water, as I'm watering manually, but what about in the rainy season, where plants get a lot?

[cooked]

I'm wondering what trees  you planted. There are plenty that I wouldn't even try, maybe half a mile down the road they would grow. I had fig trees for a few years, they all died after two years of more than adequate harvests... maybe you should look what the neighbours are growing?

[fredwiggy]

No one close has fruit trees besides mango, papaya and banana. I'm trying a lot of varieties. The lemon, Lomyai, rambutan and pomelo have all died.

[mtls2005]

Could you have the soil, and water supply, analyzed?

 

 

[fredwiggy]

I at first thought the soil was over used, and lacking nutrients, even though it's been fertilized. Without checking, you never know for sure, as some trees thrive on very little and others need more. I have fertilized the last three years, and like I said, some things grow okay, with the exception of some insect damage, which I've sprayed recently for. I don't know where in my area (Kantharalak) where I can get an analysis done. The last tree I planted didn't last a week, even though I watered daily, so it's something else.

[kickstart]

Sounds like over watering and a drainage problem ,your soil sounds like mine ,now like concrete ,in the rainy season , like porridge in this area limes grow well on light land ,very free draining ,they do not like to be sat in water , other trees are probably the same

I planted one  lime tree in a one-foot deep hole ,with cow muck ,etc it did not grow ,dug it up ,then dug a two-foot hole put some stones and rocks in the bottom then soil and  cow muck ,it grew well ,gave it some drainage 

Also do not plant to deep ,water can not get away roots sat in water. 

As cooked said some fruit trees are not meant to be where you are  ,we have tried Durein ,more than once ,they all die ,I am in Lopburi province ,as far as I know we do not have any Durein orchards in our province ,same with a lot of other top fruit trees .

[fredwiggy]

How does one over water when Thailand has a rainy season with constant rain> I understand if some roots sit in water they can rot, but these trees are all Thai proven. The soil drains water very fast, sitting above the normal level outside of the house property, so it seems the water drains well. I can't tell what's going on under the soil, but I did try the screwdriver test, and some areas it's hard, and some soft, as I mentioned earlier. Has me baffled, as I don't soak the ground around the trees but just water for a few seconds around each tree, and some die. I tried 2 Durians, and they both didn't last, and in the same basic ,well drained spot. Durians grow well here too.

[drtreelove]

On 3/16/2021 at 5:22 PM, mtls2005 said:

Could you have the soil, and water supply, analyzed?

 

 

Soil analysis is a key factor for addressing plant nutrition, drainage, resistance to pests and diseases, and other factors.  Without it we are just guessing.  But get a complete analysis as is offered by Logan Labs, referenced in the quoted discussion from 2012.

 

Some of the information is obsolete; my soils guru Michael Astera died last year in the aftermath of hurricane Laura in Louisiana USA. 

 

The good news is that there is comprehensive Logan Labs soil testing and Rx amendments available now in Thailand.  PM to TV member Evolare, or go to bonemeal.net to request soil sampling instructions and a quote for testing and an Rx recommendations.  

 

This is one area for which I would not look for the cheapest service.  Good soil analysis is a worthwhile investment. Current university soil testing and especially Do It Yourself kits do not test for all the important factors, CEC and cat-ion balancing, Calcium-Magnesium ratio that makes a big difference for drainage, etc.  (high Mg and low Ca creates a tight soil that doesn't drain well.  most local soil testing won't tell you that or how to correct it)  University soil testing and Lamotte DIY kits do not offer a comprehensive Rx for amendments. And that's where a complete service is essential.  Depending on the CEC, pH and other factors, educated choices have to be made on what amendments are appropriate for certain conditions. And of course you have to know what products are available and where to get them, and exactly how much to apply per rai, or per square meter, for smaller plots, or per cubic meter for container soil. 

[drtreelove]

On 3/18/2021 at 4:47 AM, fredwiggy said:

How does one over water when Thailand has a rainy season with constant rain> I understand if some roots sit in water they can rot, but these trees are all Thai proven. The soil drains water very fast, sitting above the normal level outside of the house property, so it seems the water drains well. I can't tell what's going on under the soil, but I did try the screwdriver test, and some areas it's hard, and some soft, as I mentioned earlier. Has me baffled, as I don't soak the ground around the trees but just water for a few seconds around each tree, and some die. I tried 2 Durians, and they both didn't last, and in the same basic ,well drained spot. Durians grow well here too.

Its a good question.  But I don't think there's a simple answer.  Water management is the most important aspect of growing. Exotic plants, which are not native or adapted to a monsoon climate, will always require descrimination on watering amount and fequency.  Watering has to be adjusted depending on the season, and even the variations that occur during the season, less during the wet season, more during the dry. 

 

"Thai proven" may indicate that certain plants are grown and are healthy and productive for some growers in some regions, but it does not guarantee that the same trees will do well or even survive under the site-specific growing conditions, soil and water management that you are able to provide on your property. 

 

 "The soil drains water very fast ... "  "I don't soak the ground around the trees but just water for a few seconds around each tree, and some die. I tried 2 Durians, and they both didn't last,"   Durian trees are highly susceptible to Phytophthora cinnamomi (root and crown rot),  but your statements indicate to me that you are not watering enough during the dry season and your trees are dying from water deficit. " ... water "for a few seconds" will probably not reach all the absorbing roots and may take only a few minutes to dry out.  What's the percent organic matter content of your soil?  I'll bet it could use improvement, or mulching. 

 

https://www.thespruce.com/watering-deeply-1402418

[drtreelove]

Specifications - Planting - Landscape plants - Edward F. Gilman - UF/IFAS (ufl.edu)

 

 

[drtreelove]

On 3/16/2021 at 3:13 AM, Tagged said:

What did you mix in to the dirt in the hole with? Dig 3 times bigger hole than the three need, mix in flower pot/vegetable dirt with buffalo <deleted> and cut rice gras/straw. On top you put rice husk. Some trees need partly shades as well. Give alot of water in the evening instead of the morning and daytime. At least we had goid resoults so far

My advise, avoid incorporating fresh manure and raw organic matter like rice straw into the backfill soil.  

 

Compost the manure and straw first, or use it on the soil surface.  

[drtreelove]

Just now, drtreelove said:

My advise, avoid incorporating fresh manure and raw organic matter like rice straw into the backfill soil.  

 

Compost the manure and straw first, or use it on the soil surface.  

And avoid making the backfill soil too rich and greatly different than the underlying, native soil.  Or you will create a "bowl effect" where the water sits in the rich soil of the planting hole and doesn't drain readily. 

[HAPPYNUFF]

If you going to use chicken poo, be careful, as it can burn  plant roots, due to its very high nitrogen content.  My old grandfather used to  put  his chicken droppings in a 44 gallon drum  and fill it with water, left it a  week or so,  then  just  used the water off the top  for his plants,   Grew the  hugest  vegetables I ever saw..      Pig  poo  is very good, and safer.

[drtreelove]

On 3/21/2021 at 1:10 PM, drtreelove said:

Its a good question.  But I don't think there's a simple answer.  Water management is the most important aspect of growing. Exotic plants, which are not native or adapted to a monsoon climate, will always require descrimination on watering amount and fequency.  Watering has to be adjusted depending on the season, and even the variations that occur during the season, less during the wet season, more during the dry. 

 

"Thai proven" may indicate that certain plants are grown and are healthy and productive for some growers in some regions, but it does not guarantee that the same trees will do well or even survive under the site-specific growing conditions, soil and water management that you are able to provide on your property. 

 

 "The soil drains water very fast ... "  "I don't soak the ground around the trees but just water for a few seconds around each tree, and some die. I tried 2 Durians, and they both didn't last,"   Durian trees are highly susceptible to Phytophthora cinnamomi (root and crown rot),  but your statements indicate to me that you are not watering enough during the dry season and your trees are dying from water deficit. " ... water "for a few seconds" will probably not reach all the absorbing roots and may take only a few minutes to dry out.  What's the percent organic matter content of your soil?  I'll bet it could use improvement, or mulching. 

 

https://www.thespruce.com/watering-deeply-1402418

My bad.  I was thinking mature plants and that watering for a few seconds wasn't enough. You were talking about watering seedlings for a few seconds, which is totally appropriate. 

 

A soil moisture meter is a beautiful thing.

[Tagged]

On 3/22/2021 at 3:27 AM, drtreelove said:

My advise, avoid incorporating fresh manure and raw organic matter like rice straw into the backfill soil.  

 

Compost the manure and straw first, or use it on the soil surface.  

Most of the raw organic matter stays in the top layer yes.