Shooting erupts at Colorado supermarket, bloodied man shown in handcuffs

[Surelynot]

2 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

Second, you are making the ridiculous assertion that somehow guns can be banned and eliminated.

I agree it is ridiculous in the case of America.......you are truly are doomed....live by the sword, die by the sword.

 

It will take a sea change in attitude, agreed, and a huge amount of political will......chicken and egg?

 

The main battle now....for the rest of the world............ is to not become like America......

[Yellowtail]

Just now, Thomas J said:

Yes lets enact laws similar to Mexico.  Where it is extremely difficult to own a gun.  That will stop them. PS while you are banning guns, why don't you ban those drugs particularly Fentanyl that are so deadly. 





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_Mexico#:~:text=Mexico has extremely restrictive laws,no person may possess them.

 

The argument will be that it is next to the U. S.

 

But what about Canada?

[Surelynot]

1 minute ago, Thomas J said:

Yes lets enact laws similar to Mexico.  Where it is extremely difficult to own a gun.  That will stop them. PS while you are banning guns, why don't you ban those drugs particularly Fentanyl that are so deadly. 





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_Mexico#:~:text=Mexico has extremely restrictive laws,no person may possess them.

As mentioned earlier, laws in a lawless country are almost meaningless......it is like driving in Thailand......it is just a free for all.

 

But America isn't (quite as) lawless and laws can be imposed....even if it takes 20 years it has got to be worth it.

[Yellowtail]

7 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Typical deflection from those who deny guns are a problem.  They are.

 

Because that's what your poly-sci professor told you? 

 

Why are there low crime rates in many states and countries with high gun ownership? 

[Surelynot]

4 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

So the 150 million people that own guns in the US have are to be punished for the actions of a few nut-sacks. Brilliant.

 

 

So 20 school children in Sandyhook have to die because of selfish, gun obsessed morons demanding they can't live without their precious guns.....???

[Thomas J]

2 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

America?

Unfortunately as an USA citizen I confess that the USA is not a safe country.  There are many causes for that but a good deal of it I think is attributable to the culture.  Instead of harshly punishing those who break the law, they coddle them.  That breeds an indifference to following the law knowing there are no real consequences.  

Using Thailand vs. Singapore.  In Thailand there is trash all over the streets.  In Singapore you can eat off the streets they are that clean.  Singapore strictly enforces a no littering policy and severely punishes those who break the law. 

As said, if the availability of guns were the problem then Switzerland would have a problem.  If availability of guns was the problem, Mexico where it is virtually impossible to legally own a gun would not have a problem. 

[Thomas J]

Just now, Surelynot said:

So 20 school children in Sandyhook have to die because of selfish, gun obsessed morons demanding they can't live without their precious guns.....???

You are somehow making the LEAP that guns can somehow be totally eliminated.  It is totally illegal to have Fentanyl in the USA.  

 

[Walker88]

3 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

Unfortunately as an USA citizen I confess that the USA is not a safe country.  There are many causes for that but a good deal of it I think is attributable to the culture.  Instead of harshly punishing those who break the law, they coddle them.  That breeds an indifference to following the law knowing there are no real consequences.  

Using Thailand vs. Singapore.  In Thailand there is trash all over the streets.  In Singapore you can eat off the streets they are that clean.  Singapore strictly enforces a no littering policy and severely punishes those who break the law. 

As said, if the availability of guns were the problem then Switzerland would have a problem.  If availability of guns was the problem, Mexico where it is virtually impossible to legally own a gun would not have a problem. 

The US 'coddles' criminals?

 

The US has the highest incarceration rate in the world.

[Yellowtail]

3 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

As mentioned earlier, laws in a lawless country are almost meaningless......it is like driving in Thailand......it is just a free for all.

 

But America isn't (quite as) lawless and laws can be imposed....even if it takes 20 years it has got to be worth it.

 

So what laws would you implement, how would they be enforced, and what should the punishments be? 

 

Would you support a ten year prison sentence for illegally obtaining or possessing a firearm? 

[Surelynot]

4 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

Unfortunately as an USA citizen I confess that the USA is not a safe country

A serious question......the view of many in the UK is that America is horrendous......shootings daily....shootings on every street corner......drug dealers everywhere.......serial killers by the dozen.......but isn't that TV? Surely the vast majority of Americans lead 'normal', comfortable lives and generally feel safe??????

[Jeffr2]

16 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

Yes lets enact laws similar to Mexico.  Where it is extremely difficult to own a gun.  That will stop them. PS while you are banning guns, why don't you ban those drugs particularly Fentanyl that are so deadly. 





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_Mexico#:~:text=Mexico has extremely restrictive laws,no person may possess them.

Your seriously trying to compare the US with Mexico.  OMG.  Bizarre.

[Surelynot]

9 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

As said, if the availability of guns were the problem then Switzerland would have a problem.  If availability of guns was the problem, Mexico where it is virtually impossible to legally own a gun would not have a problem. 

True....then as implied it is a combination of (American) attitudes and availability of guns......so the solution should be two pronged......educate to change attitudes.......laws to remove guns,

[Thomas J]

6 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

But America isn't (quite as) lawless and laws can be imposed....even if it takes 20 years it has got to be worth it.

Do I favor gun regulation, yes.  However the devil is always in the details.  Right now there is this push to ban AR-15 firearms which essentially is a .223 caliber semi-automatic rifle.  The Ruger 14 is the identical gun but it does not look military.  So do ban guns that "look scary"  

I certainly would favor only "responsible" individuals possessing firearms.  However, I truly don't know how the government can establish any sort of criteria that would allow only responsible people to have them.  The vast majority of mass shootings involve people who legally got firearms and they did not have a history of mental problems.  Those that did have symptoms like Columbine, the authorities were powerless to do anything to prohibit the two from getting guns just because "they were acting weird" 

I do think it is said to say that the American Culture does not have the respect that people in Asia and for that matter the EU has.  Unless you can somehow change the population and have them show proper respect for obeying the laws I think fiddling with more gun laws is like changing the deck chairs on the Titanic. 

[Yellowtail]

Just now, Jeffr2 said:

Your seriously trying to compare the US with Mexico.  OMG.  Bizarre.

 

He has no way of responding. OMG. Bizarre. 

[KarenBravo]

1 minute ago, Yellowtail said:

 

So what laws would you implement, how would they be enforced, and what should the punishments be? 

 

Would you support a ten year prison sentence for illegally obtaining or possessing a firearm? 

 

 I would have interpreted the second amendment strictly. Guns only to "well regulated militias" if this was 1921 or earlier. Unfortunately, it's far too late to do anything practical about guns.

Yes, increased background checks is possible and has majority support with the American public, but, it wouldn't stop these mass shootings.

 

Very tricky when both sides of the gun argument are right.

If you take guns away from the people, then only bad guys will have them.

There are too many guns and guns make it easy to kill lots of people, very quickly. You don't need to get close and personal.

 

At the very least, I think assault rifles should be banned. There is no practical reason to have one.

[Jeffr2]

Just now, Yellowtail said:

 

He has no way of responding. OMG. Bizarre. 

Hard to respond to such a bizarre comparison.  Kinda like comparing Paris with Mogadishu.  Doesn't make sense.

[Surelynot]

7 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

So what laws would you implement, how would they be enforced, and what should the punishments be? 

 

Would you support a ten year prison sentence for illegally obtaining or possessing a firearm? 

Ban production without a license (but I assume that already exists).......control sales from the manufacturers......like weapon exports are to countries around the world........ban all personal possession, bar some very exceptional cases, and .....yes......even the yakuza don't carry guns, parts of guns, equipment to make guns, ammunition.......they seems to take exception to a mandatory 10 year jail sentence.......wimps.

 

It can be done.....people just don't want it to happen.

[Phoenix Rising]

10 minutes ago, Yellowtail said:

 

So what laws would you implement, how would they be enforced, and what should the punishments be? 

 

Would you support a ten year prison sentence for illegally obtaining or possessing a firearm? 

Speaking for myself; yes.

[heybruce]

20 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

Yes lets enact laws similar to Mexico.  Where it is extremely difficult to own a gun.  That will stop them. PS while you are banning guns, why don't you ban those drugs particularly Fentanyl that are so deadly. 





https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firearms_regulation_in_Mexico#:~:text=Mexico has extremely restrictive laws,no person may possess them.

Mexico has guns smuggled in from the US paid for with money from the drug trade with the US and with laws ignored because of corruption funded by US drug money.

 

Culturally and economically Canada is much closer to the US than Mexico.  Why not compare our gun crime statistics with Canada's?

[Fat is a type of crazy]

1 hour ago, Thomas J said:

So if the man had used a truck to run over people would you favor banning trucks.  If he had set the building on fire and people died would you favor banning fire? 

If guns are the problem you will need to explain to me, how Switzerland which has a 28% household firearms ownership rate has not had a single mass shooting since 2001 versus a 31% firearms ownership rate in the USA. 

While you are at it, give me an explanation for why Kennesaw Georgia which is a suburb of Atlanta has a crime rate 5 times lower than neighboring Atlanta.  Kennesaw has a law making it mandatory for each Kennesaw citizen to own a gun. 

If gun laws are "so effective" why is Mexico one of the highest homicide rates in the world.  Mexico has only 1 legal gun store run by the government and legally owning a gun takes months and requires extensive background checks. 

The USA tried to once ban alcohol.  How did that work out.  Alcohol flowed freely and the Mafia was enriched.  The USA has also had a "war on drugs" for decades.  How has that worked out.  The drug cartels have made billions and the USA has one of the world's worst drug problems.  So if "banning" is your answer it likely will be just as effective as Mexico and the USA's attempts to ban drugs. 

If Switzerland tells us anything about gun ownership it is not that the gun itself is the determining factor but the character of the people.  Chicago has some of the toughest gun laws in the nation but homicides abound there every day.  The cry is but yes, they import those guns from neighboring states with loose gun laws.  If that is true, why don't those neighboring states with loose gun laws have the homicide problem rather than Chicago if availability of guns is the cause of the homicides.

https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/MEX/mexico/murder-homicide-rate#:~:text=Mexico murder%2Fhomicide rate for,a 2.48% increase from 2014. 

https://www.macrotrends.net/cities/us/ga/kennesaw/crime-rate-statistics#:~:text=Violent crimes are defined in,a 9.25% increase from 2016.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/despite-mass-shootings-number-of-households-owning-guns-is-on-the-decline/

If some potential killer wants to kill lots of people it's not so easy to buy fertilizer and create a bomb..might not be too hard to get a truck but tricky to drive and you need a crowd to run into.. guns are easy to buy and use, and the stronger and faster the gun is to use, the more dangerous it is.

Sadly a factor too is that guns have always been held in reverence as a man's weapon, maybe even fun to use - further incentive for a deranged killer to do the deed. Killers can't be blamed on movies and video games but the latter  could possibly make it seem attractive and easy. Might not seem so cool to drive a moving truck into a crowd for some lunatic to make their swansong. 

A comparison to Mexico is not fair because Mexico is a corrupt third world country. The fact that there is only one legal gunshop does not mean much in a country partly controlled by drug cartels and other criminals.

Compare like with like. America and Australia. America lots of guns and lots of gun deaths. Australia few guns and few gun deaths.

If your argument is that guns are going to be bought and sold regardless, that doesn't mean the answer is to give up, but that law enforcement have to do their job. Seems to work in Australia.

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Fat is a type of crazy

[Rimmer]

An off topic posts removed

 

Topic is not about Mexico or Venezuela

[PatOngo]

51 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

Correct and to my point, it was the despicable character of the person not the fertilizer.  The same is true of all mass killings.  The weapon is merely an instrument. 

Why is it so prevelent in America?

[Thomas J]

12 minutes ago, Surelynot said:

True....then as implied it is a combination of (American) attitudes and availability of guns......so the solution should be two pronged......educate to change attitudes.......laws to remove guns

As to the former, American attitudes, we supposedly have tried to change attitudes about race for decades and passed numerous laws but somehow the news is still rampant about there being little change.  Removing guns.  We tried that with alcohol did not work.  We have a total ban on Fentanyl, Cocaine, Meth, Extasy etc.  Despite the "war on drugs" there is no shortage.   

I 'think" that if the USA was to adopt a much more severe punishment not just for firearms but for all law breaking that it would over time breed a greater respect for all laws.  Consider, it is already illegal to kill someone but obviously the mass shooter broke that law and didn't care about it.   Trying to ban firearms may do nothing more than making sure only criminals get guns by buying them black market with organized crime organizations reaping billions by either manufacturing them domestically or importing them from overseas.  

[Walker88]

Obviously there can be limits on what weapons are available to be owned by the public. The Founders could not have imagined the killing power of an AR-15 when they penned the 2nd Amendment. The line can be drawn wherever Congress decides, and it can be on the 'illegal' side of AR-15s, AK-47s and other semi auto, large mag rifles.

 

Fully automatic used to be freely available. Now it requires a special permit and lengthy waiting permit (plus a tiny $200 Stamp Tax) to legally possess a full auto like a Thompson, M3 Grease Gun, M4, etc.

 

I might be able to afford a used A-10 Warthog with a fully functioning GAU-8 cannon that shoots depleted uranium rounds, but I will never be given permission to own one. I cannot own a bazooka or RPG-7 or SAM-7 shoulder held missile. Jeff Bezos cannot own his own carrier group or atomic sub with Trident missiles. Those lines have been drawn.

 

Congress could easily do the same with AR-style weapons, though it would be tough to recover all 5-20 million (?) of them now in public hands. The easier route would be to halt sales of 5.56 NATO and ,223 ammo.

 

Will it be done? Unlikely, so keep those factories churning out 'thoughts and prayers' 24/7.

[Surelynot]

Just now, PatOngo said:

Why is it so prevelent in America?

Inequality.........or rather extremes of inequality?

Lack of opportunity?

Racism....which lies at the heart of inequality and lack of opportunity

 

No doubt there are whole tomes on the subject

[Thomas J]

2 minutes ago, PatOngo said:

Why is it so prevelent in America?

My opinion.  There is a cultural lack of respect for laws and authority in the USA.  I also think that the movies and video games play a part.  They glorify shooting scenes and the games give it the illusion of being a fantasy and not real. 

One thing is for sure, you have guns in other countries and they don't have the problem.  You have areas with strict gun laws with the highest rates of gun homicides and areas with loose gun laws with low rates of gun violence.  

[Surelynot]

2 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

I 'think" that if the USA was to adopt a much more severe punishment

I get the impression that US penalties are pretty draconian already.

 

Maybe get to the root causes.......inequality.....lack of opportunities.......poor education.......I dare say the list goes on and on.....prevention is better than detention.

[Surelynot]

2 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

I also think that the movies and video games play a part.  They glorify shooting scenes and the games give it the illusion of being a fantasy and not real. 

Would agree with that along with 'Hollywood' movie fights........15 punches to the face and the guy wipes a small trickle of blood from the corner of his mouth.......doh!

[John Drake]

32 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

Your seriously trying to compare the US with Mexico.  OMG.  Bizarre.

 

Why shouldn't he? A large percentage of Mexico lives in the US.

[Yellowtail]

22 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Mexico has guns smuggled in from the US paid for with money from the drug trade with the US and with laws ignored because of corruption funded by US drug money.

 

Culturally and economically Canada is much closer to the US than Mexico.  Why not compare our gun crime statistics with Canada's?

 

Okay, Hawaii has a much higher gun ownership rate, yet a much lower gun homicide rate.