Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[skippybangkok]

Registered capital is 3.5 million and the company turns over only about 1 million which all goes in salaries (me and wife) and yearly fees. Also we are not VAT registered.

It’s very easy to see from paper work if it’s a full company or a shell. Honestly - it costs only 5000 baht to apply ( in my day ) and some more for official translations - what have you got to loose. Just go SB and see what they say.

I have mentioned many times I thought I had to wait ie 5 years after getting PR, but I was wrong , and qualified.



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[new101]

1 minute ago, skippybangkok said:

 

 

It’s very easy to see from paper work if it’s a full company or a shell. Honestly - it costs only 5000 baht to apply ( in my day ) and some more for official translations - what have you got to loose. Just go SB and see what they say.

I have mentioned many times I thought I had to wait ie 5 years after getting PR, but I was wrong , and qualified.



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Yeah will see what they say, still have 6 months to go to get to 3 years and most likely will need this years tax return so could be longer. Thanks

[yankee99]

16 minutes ago, new101 said:

Yeah will see what they say, still have 6 months to go to get to 3 years and most likely will need this years tax return so could be longer. Thanks

So when you apply (2019) you will actually have filed 4 years of returns. Even though the 1st was a 1/2 year

[Arkady]

32 minutes ago, new101 said:

Great thanks Arkady looks like I will need to improve the company somewhat :)

 

With regards to education is this just related to the points? ie no degree means getting 0 points, or are there other penalties for not having a degree?

 

Having only 1 Thai employee might attract some negativity, if anyone notices, including the Labour Ministry reps who sit on the little and big committees at the MoI.  You are lucky to get away with this in Chiang Mai, as Bangkok would normally demand 4 Thai employees after the company's first year of operations, when they are more lenient to give a new company some breathing space to get off the ground.  Of course the MoL reps on the committee are from the ministry's Bangkok HQ.

 

With no degree you can get 3 points, if you can prove you graduated from high school or have anything else they can accept as equivalent to the Thai Mor 6.  A diploma that is more than high school but less than a bachelors degree gets you 5 points.  If asked, you need to explain that you received extensive on the job training before you moved to Thailand which allows you to pursue your chosen profession effectively. 

[Arkady]

20 hours ago, skippybangkok said:

I have mentioned many times I thought I had to wait ie 5 years after getting PR, but I was wrong , and qualified.
 

Policy on this seems to fluctuate over the years. For those without Thai wives the Nationality Act in Section 10.4 vaguely requires "5 years' residence in the Kingdom", leaving the definition of that up to MoI officials who have been quite inconsistent in their interpretation. The current 2009 guidelines and the previous guidelines they replaced interpret "5 years' residence" as 5 years' residence with a residence book and an alien book.  This is consistent with way Section 7 bis has always been interpreted, whereby children born in the Kingdom to two alien permanent residents are Thai but children born to two alien temporary residents or one PR and one temporary resident are not, although neither permanent residence, nor alien books etc are mentioned in Section 7 bis.

 

However, unlike the consistent interpretation of Section 7 bis which by its very nature has to be black  and white in determining whether a child born in the ibiKingdom is Thai or not, the interpretation of Section 10.4 has not been consistent.  Unlike Section 7 bis, this is not too critical because it is just about the timing of eligibility not an irreversible determination of eligibility.  Also the citizenship guidelines are only that. Because they are not issued through ministerial regulations they do not have the force of law which means they are not fully binding and can be overridden with ministerial discretion exercised either by the minister personally or perhaps exercised somewhere further down the chain on the minister's behalf.

 

I know of other cases in the past apart from Skippy's where PR's with less than 5 years' with PR have successfully applied for citizenship by including unbroken residence on a NON-B in the 5 years' residence.  However, a friend with 3 years' PR and no Thai wife recently visited SB in Bangkok to ask about his chances of applying now.  He was told the chances were very poor in the current environment and advised to wait another 2 years.  They said you would need a connection with access to the minister to get the guideline overridden at the moment.  (Admittedly this has also a stock SB answer to question about how to get approved quicker.)  My understanding is that, because the Act is vague on this point and the guidelines are not law,  you can insist on applying with less than 5 years' PR and no Thai wife, if you want, even without ministerial access, and take your chances on getting knocked back by the MoI before or after the MoI interview.  Getting knocked back for incomplete qualifications, if honestly submitted, does not having any impact on any subsequent applications and a number of applicants have been successful on their second attempt.

[GabbaGabbaHey]

28 minutes ago, Arkady said:

[...] and take your chances on getting knocked back by the MoI before or after the MoI interview.  Getting knocked back for incomplete qualifications [...]

I thought the role of SB was to give the green light by ensuring an application was passed and complete, but from what you're saying I understand MOI will also go though an inspection of all documents, am I correct?

Edited January 4, 2018 by GabbaGabbaHey

[Arkady]

29 minutes ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

I thought the role of SB was to give the green light by ensuring an application was passed and complete, but from what you're saying I understand MOI will also go though an inspection of all documents, am I correct?

 

SB is just an initial screen. The MoI makes a detailed inspection of all documents and sometimes comes to a different conclusion about eligibility than SB. In addition any of the representatives of other agencies that sit on the committees have to right to scrutinise and challenge qualifications.

 

In my experience the relationship between SB and the MoI was not at all good and SB officers did not feel there were in a position to pick up the phone and ask MoI for clarification of an unclear point. Initially they just took a guess which proved wrong.  After my application was knocked back to them due to their mistake, which would have been easily avoided, if the two were talking to each other, SB still did not dare to call the MoI and left it to me to go and see them in person to sort out the problem directly with the MoI section head, who was not at all happy that SB had given me her name. I was treated to a 15 minute tirade about "idiot police" etc by her when I first got in to  see her.  Finally she calmed down and became very nice and helpful.  I was able to get SB's stupid mistake (applying against my clearly stated wishes for exemption from singing for a PR married to a Thai for less than 3 years) corrected but it lost me 6 months.  SB admitted to me that 5 or 6 other files were knocked back to them at the same time, most of which had been nailed by the other agencies at the committee meeting which meant that the applicants had to apply again from scratch many years after their initial applications. I was lucky that SB's mistake was discovered by the MoI itself before going to the committee because the committee's rejection is final, although you can re-apply.

[GabbaGabbaHey]

Very useful information as usual, Arkady. I hope I won't face the same as you did but honestly today I feel I have a risk because the early steps of my application were all done before I reached the 5 years of PR (including the interview day and signature of the application). However for some unclear reason I had to come back to sign a newer application form after my 5 years of PR were complete. Knowing the level of details in the process, and what you just explained, I hope both sets of requirements will not have been scrambled in my application.

[Arkady]

22 minutes ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

Very useful information as usual, Arkady. I hope I won't face the same as you did but honestly today I feel I have a risk because the early steps of my application were all done before I reached the 5 years of PR (including the interview day and signature of the application). However for some unclear reason I had to come back to sign a newer application form after my 5 years of PR were complete. Knowing the level of details in the process, and what you just explained, I hope both sets of requirements will not have been scrambled in my application.

 

By interview day do you mean interview at SB or the MoI?  If you passed the interview with the MoI (i.e. heard nothing in the  following weeks it means you were passed and forwarded to the big committee which is rubber stamp required by the Act which normally passes everything passed by the little "interview" committee). If you haven't passed that stage yet, you still might have a risk of being knocked back to SB to verify your qualifications again (as I was) or being rejected completely by the little committee and having to start again.

 

Assuming it was SB that called you back to sign another application form, they must have been trying to cover you, either through their own initiative or on request by the MoI. However, an official knock back to SB to re-verify qualifications involves most importantly a new employment letter, although I did not have to get new confirmations of docs from Immigration, the amphur and Labour Ministry.  I can't remember if I had to do a new bank statement or not but I think it was just a new employment letter, new tax receipts and another interview and singing session with the director.  I am not sure how a new application form could be accepted without redoing everything but, if the MoI wants to do a fix like that, the other agencies on the committee are unlikely to object and you should be OK.  Actually they seem to spend most of their time checking their phones during the interviews.  The main thing for is that they can't be blamed for letting anyone through who is not qualified. Hopefully your updated application form serves as bum covering for someone to  proof you had 5 years' PR at the time of application. 

 

The best way to clarify would be a New Year visit to your officer at SB with New Year sticky cakes in hand after calling ahead to make sure they will be in the office. Then you can enquire about the circumstances surrounding your second application form.  In addition, you can a regular progress check call to the MoI without referring to the second application form. In this case the officer is supposed to look out your file.  If they really bother to do this and find something wrong that SB has not told you, they will let you know.  But probably SB will be best source of information on this.

 

[GabbaGabbaHey]

1 hour ago, Arkady said:

By interview day do you mean interview at SB or the MoI?  If you passed the interview with the MoI (i.e. heard nothing in the  following weeks it means you were passed and forwarded to the big committee which is rubber stamp required by the Act which normally passes everything passed by the little "interview" committee). If you haven't passed that stage yet, you still might have a risk of being knocked back to SB to verify your qualifications again (as I was) or being rejected completely by the little committee and having to start again.

 

Assuming it was SB that called you back to sign another application form, they must have been trying to cover you, either through their own initiative or on request by the MoI. However, an official knock back to SB to re-verify qualifications involves most importantly a new employment letter, although I did not have to get new confirmations of docs from Immigration, the amphur and Labour Ministry.  I can't remember if I had to do a new bank statement or not but I think it was just a new employment letter, new tax receipts and another interview and singing session with the director.  I am not sure how a new application form could be accepted without redoing everything but, if the MoI wants to do a fix like that, the other agencies on the committee are unlikely to object and you should be OK.  Actually they seem to spend most of their time checking their phones during the interviews.  The main thing for is that they can't be blamed for letting anyone through who is not qualified. Hopefully your updated application form serves as bum covering for someone to  proof you had 5 years' PR at the time of application. 

 

The best way to clarify would be a New Year visit to your officer at SB with New Year sticky cakes in hand after calling ahead to make sure they will be in the office. Then you can enquire about the circumstances surrounding your second application form.  In addition, you can a regular progress check call to the MoI without referring to the second application form. In this case the officer is supposed to look out your file.  If they really bother to do this and find something wrong that SB has not told you, they will let you know.  But probably SB will be best source of information on this.

 

Thanks for your advice, I will consider.

 

My interview was the SB one and my application hasn't been sent to MOI yet. I think my timeline follows a normal path, but I just feel my situation is not clear since my points, requirements and document collection were made on a less than 5 years PR and my application final document will have a post 5 years PR date. I don't mind to have to sing at MOI -I did it at SR for the points actually- I was just trying to save a year by applying earlier based on marriage but now I'm confused on which requirement they will consider myself and I'm afraid this could fall into the 'technical issues' you mentioned in earlier posts if any involuntarily mix has been made in my set of documents. The explanation for coming to sign the application form again (after I had passed the 5 years of PR) was that things were not complete on the first time. I will probably never know if this is to help me, but I do hope so. It could be possible that someone thinks applying at 4.x years of PR and not waiting for 5 years would be seen as a not so nice move, and this was made to increase my chances? Anyway, I should normally see what happens in the coming months when my file is sent to MOI.

[Arkady]

57 minutes ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

Thanks for your advice, I will consider.

 

My interview was the SB one and my application hasn't been sent to MOI yet. I think my timeline follows a normal path, but I just feel my situation is not clear since my points, requirements and document collection were made on a less than 5 years PR and my application final document will have a post 5 years PR date. I don't mind to have to sing at MOI -I did it at SR for the points actually- I was just trying to save a year by applying earlier based on marriage but now I'm confused on which requirement they will consider myself and I'm afraid this could fall into the 'technical issues' you mentioned in earlier posts if any involuntarily mix has been made in my set of documents. The explanation for coming to sign the application form again (after I had passed the 5 years of PR) was that things were not complete on the first time. I will probably never know if this is to help me, but I do hope so. It could be possible that someone thinks applying at 4.x years of PR and not waiting for 5 years would be seen as a not so nice move, and this was made to increase my chances? Anyway, I should normally see what happens in the coming months when my file is sent to MOI.

I think it is important to know on what basis you are applying and I suggest you ask SB. Among other things you will need to know, if you have sing at the MoI or not. If your application is on the basis of marriage, the covering letter from SB will, in addition to some general sections, specifically reference Section 11.4 of the Nationality Act which gives exemption from the 5 year residence and language (singing) requirements.  If you apply as a PR, there will be no reference to Section 11.4 and you will have to sing at the MoI.  The MoI showed me the offending eference to 11.4 in my covering letter which was the stupid mistake made by SB because I had not registered my marriage for 3 years at the time of the application, as I pointed out to them, but had PR for more than 5 years.  It took 6 months to get a new covering letter from SB that was identical in every respect but made no reference to 11.4.

 

There is no problem in applying on the basis of a Thai wife, if you have PR for less than 5 years, or even more than 5 years, if you don't want to sing.  SB normally pushes those who have both to apply on the basis of marriage to avoid the singing which is a common reason for failing the MoI interview.  The only downside to applying on the basis of marriage is that, if you get divorced or she dies before the MoI interview, you will no longer be qualified and could either be forced to apply again from scratch on the  basis of PR, or get knocked back to SB for a new covering letter like I was.

 

How long was the gap between the date of your employment letter and your second application form?  In my case the gap was 3 months because I was sent on a wild documents goose chase after getting the employment letter.  I remember the SB officer saying that the 3 month gap was "mai suay" but would probably do (and so it did).

[GabbaGabbaHey]

56 minutes ago, Arkady said:

How long was the gap between the date of your employment letter and your second application form?  In my case the gap was 3 months because I was sent on a wild documents goose chase after getting the employment letter.  I remember the SB officer saying that the 3 month gap was "mai suay" but would probably do (and so it did).

7 months for this one. All my documents are now 6-9 months old.

[Arkady]

17 hours ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

7 months for this one. All my documents are now 6-9 months old.

That's sounds a bit on the wrong side of "mai suay" but maybe OK.  I guess you are at the stage that you have already scrawled your name in Thai on the new application form and SB is waiting for replies from the other agencies, if they have not yet forwarded your file to the MoI.  When they do, you need to get a copy of the covering letter from them.  The date of that letter will serve of your reference, if you want to follow up on your application with the MoI by phone.  It should also tell you, by looking at which sections of the Act are referenced, whether you need to sing or not.  But I think it is better to clarify this point directly with SB.

[THAIJAMES]

On 1/3/2018 at 8:16 PM, Arkady said:

 

Having only 1 Thai employee might attract some negativity, if anyone notices, including the Labour Ministry reps who sit on the little and big committees at the MoI.  You are lucky to get away with this in Chiang Mai, as Bangkok would normally demand 4 Thai employees after the company's first year of operations, when they are more lenient to give a new company some breathing space to get off the ground.  Of course the MoL reps on the committee are from the ministry's Bangkok HQ.

 

Is the number of employees on any of the documents that we submit?  As a PR I have not been asked how many employees I have for many years.  Even for work permits.

[Neeranam]

Had anyone got the letter of intent to renounce uk citizenship recently, ie, in the last 5 years?

Also was there any problem with the criminal record check, as according to the UK govt. website, this has to be done by the Special Branch police!!

[Arkady]

On 1/6/2018 at 11:50 AM, THAIJAMES said:

Is the number of employees on any of the documents that we submit?  As a PR I have not been asked how many employees I have for many years.  Even for work permits.

 

Good point. No, I don't think the number of Thai employees would appear on any the documents you have to submit.  So perhaps it should not be a concern, if you are able to get away with less than 4. l seem to recall one of the application forms for a WP asked details of Thai employees but it's been a few years since I applied for one myself.

[greenchair]

On 1/6/2018 at 1:07 PM, Neeranam said:

Had anyone got the letter of intent to renounce uk citizenship recently, ie, in the last 5 years?

Also was there any problem with the criminal record check, as according to the UK govt. website, this has to be done by the Special Branch police!!

I vaguely remember going to the special branch police. It's right next to the SB . I have a criminal record in Thailand so I also had to get the details from the local police. I'm slightly vague about it all, so don't take my word on it. I had a case pending in the court, so my application was sent to moi, but they had to wait until the case finished before the interview. After the case was finished my case was a couple of weeks later. A lot of people are afraid to apply if have a record. But it depends on the crime and how long ago is considered. 

[Arkady]

13 hours ago, greenchair said:

I vaguely remember going to the special branch police. It's right next to the SB . I have a criminal record in Thailand so I also had to get the details from the local police. I'm slightly vague about it all, so don't take my word on it. I had a case pending in the court, so my application was sent to moi, but they had to wait until the case finished before the interview. After the case was finished my case was a couple of weeks later. A lot of people are afraid to apply if have a record. But it depends on the crime and how long ago is considered. 

Are people now asked to get their Thai police clearance (or lack of) themselves?  SB used to get all the vetting documents from other police departments, including the Thai police Interpol liaison office, themselves.  But, as far as I know, you need to get a home country police clearance these days, which for UK citizens is obtained from the UK.  Americans have to apply to the FBI.

[GarryP]

25 minutes ago, Arkady said:

Are people now asked to get their Thai police clearance (or lack of) themselves?  SB used to get all the vetting documents from other police departments, including the Thai police Interpol liaison office, themselves.  But, as far as I know, you need to get a home country police clearance these days, which for UK citizens is obtained from the UK.  Americans have to apply to the FBI.

How long ago was home country police clearance introduced? I don't recall any such thing in my application.

[skippybangkok]

How long ago was home country police clearance introduced? I don't recall any such thing in my application.

I had to get the same. A bit weird cause only looked at my Ozzie citz where as I grew up in Europe - highly unlikely to have a record if under 10 years old :)

( ps Europe would have passed too - no issue - or shall I say , never got caught hehehe )


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[Big Guns]

I didn't have to do UK police clearance for Thai citizenship. As I received my citizenship last October it must be a recent thing. I did need UK police clearance for my job when I first arrived in Thailand 13 years ago.

[greenchair]

1 hour ago, Arkady said:

Are people now asked to get their Thai police clearance (or lack of) themselves?  SB used to get all the vetting documents from other police departments, including the Thai police Interpol liaison office, themselves.  But, as far as I know, you need to get a home country police clearance these days, which for UK citizens is obtained from the UK.  Americans have to apply to the FBI.

I never at any time was asked for a record clearance from my home country. Only the criminal record check in Thailand. 

Hard to remember exact details but I think they gave me a letter to take to my district police station not the normal division though, the investigative division out the back. Then I think I had to go to the national police office at the same place as sb. 

There was certainly a bit of running around. 

But absolutely never told to get one from home country. 

[greenchair]

54 minutes ago, Big Guns said:

I didn't have to do UK police clearance for Thai citizenship. As I received my citizenship last October it must be a recent thing. I did need UK police clearance for my job when I first arrived in Thailand 13 years ago.

Me neither. 

[Arkady]

21 hours ago, greenchair said:

I never at any time was asked for a record clearance from my home country. Only the criminal record check in Thailand. 

Hard to remember exact details but I think they gave me a letter to take to my district police station not the normal division though, the investigative division out the back. Then I think I had to go to the national police office at the same place as sb. 

There was certainly a bit of running around. 

But absolutely never told to get one from home country. 

 

I was under the impression that a home country police clearance was now necessary, as it is for PR, but that must be incorrect.  I was not asked for any police clearance but SB went next door with a set of my finger prints and got my local police clearance for me, which I think they used to do for everyone then.

[greenchair]

1 hour ago, Arkady said:

 

I was under the impression that a home country police clearance was now necessary, as it is for PR, but that must be incorrect.  I was not asked for any police clearance but SB went next door with a set of my finger prints and got my local police clearance for me, which I think they used to do for everyone then.

Well other posters have said the same thing they didn't need a home country police clearance. 

And going by Neeranam post which is the latest application. they do not do the Thai clearance for you anymore. As I said, for me I has to go to my local police office first. 

[skyaslimit]

 
I was under the impression that a home country police clearance was now necessary, as it is for PR, but that must be incorrect.  I was not asked for any police clearance but SB went next door with a set of my finger prints and got my local police clearance for me, which I think they used to do for everyone then.

I think if you're a PR, applying for citizenship, you have been through the checks already.

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[skyaslimit]

Has any of you transfered red police book along with your thabian baan to Bangkok before applying at SB recently? If yes please share the details.


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Any one?

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[Arkady]

2 hours ago, skyaslimit said:

 

Any one?

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I didn't move my tabien baan to Bangkok but I would imagine you need to do this. If not, you are in violation of PR regulations which require you to re-register with police within 30 or so days of moving.  I was fined B100 for doing this late when I moved within Bangkok.  It's not worth having a document with incorrect details in it, however trivial, as it will result in hassles and delays, if anyone discovers it at any point in the process. Also you will have a problem if you have to do the 5 year endorsement of the red book while you are waiting for citizenship, if you don't change the address. It is not too much trouble. You just go to your local cop shop and hand in the book and fill out a form and they will send it to the new cop shop which takes about 3 weeks for some reason.  Then you go to the new cop shop and they fill out the new address for you and return the book.  When you get citizenship  you don't need to go back to the cop shop.  You just hand in the red book and the blue/white book to Immigration.

[greenchair]

5 hours ago, skyaslimit said:

 

Any one?

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What's a red book? 

[skippybangkok]

What's a red book? 

I think equivalent of Thai ID for PR’s.

Problem is

1) only government officials understand them, corporates don’t accept them as ID’s generally unless you have a brawl
2) they are too big to be carried around as an ID




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