Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[yankee99]

2 minutes ago, GarryP said:

Special Branch. They have a score sheet. However, you can see a breakdown of the points system in one of the earlier posts. So you can pretty much determine your points in advance.

Garry

 

this would be the special branch in chonburi in my case correct?

[GarryP]

7 minutes ago, yankee99 said:

Garry

 

this would be the special branch in chonburi in my case correct?

Yes. The points breakdown can be found in the link Arkady provided.

[GabbaGabbaHey]

33 minutes ago, GarryP said:

I never had PR and applied based on marriage to a Thai. If you have been married for more than 3 years and have the requisite work permit, tax returns, etc. you could apply based on marriage now without having to wait. While the singing is dropped, you still have to go through the interview. Someone with 90 points has no real advantage over someone with 52 points. If you have 50 points, you qualify and that's it. I think it was Arkady who told me that the police do not even tell BoRA your score when your application is passed on to them. It is the responsibility of the police to make sure you meet the minimum requirements and that is what BoRA is concerned about, i.e. your application would not have passed screening and been passed on to BoRA 

 

Thank you Garry.

 

To be more precise, how many points of the 15 related to Thai language level (8 for speaking/understanding, 2 for singing the anthems, 2 for reading, 3 for writing ) can an applicant under marriage reason try to get? is it 13 or less?

 

Other side question: my wedding is a foreign wedding registered in my European country, that was translated to Thai and legalized by my embassy and Thailand officials. I've always used that as a proof of marriage and it worked , but I  don't have the actual Thai wedding certificate. Would this be an issue to go for the citizenship under marriage application?

[yankee99]

Can anyone clarify which of these would be applicable?

 

Income (monthly) on which tax paid in the case of those married to a Thai national, or having Thai children, or having graduated from high school in Thailand:

40,000 to 60,000 – 15 points

60,000 to 80,000 – 20 points

Over 80,000 – 25 points

 

or 

 

Income (monthly) in the case of those married to a Thai national, or having Thai children, or having graduated from high school in Thailand:

40,000 to 50,000 – 15 points

50,000 to 60,000 – 20 points

Over 60,000 – 25 points

[GarryP]

53 minutes ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

 

Thank you Garry.

 

To be more precise, how many points of the 15 related to Thai language level (8 for speaking/understanding, 2 for singing the anthems, 2 for reading, 3 for writing ) can an applicant under marriage reason try to get? is it 13 or less?

 

Other side question: my wedding is a foreign wedding registered in my European country, that was translated to Thai and legalized by my embassy and Thailand officials. I've always used that as a proof of marriage and it worked , but I  don't have the actual Thai wedding certificate. Would this be an issue to go for the citizenship under marriage application?

I am not sure whether you would also need to have your marriage registered at the local Registry Office. You would need to check with SB.

 

In my case, I can speak Thai pretty fluently, and can read sufficiently well to be able to translate court judgments from Thai to English, but can't write Thai to save my life. As such, I only earned points for speaking and listening. I did not even qualify to sing the anthems. This was because at that time the points were split (if I recall correctly) as follows: 1) speaking and listening; 2) speaking, listening, reading and writing; 3) speaking, listening, reading, writing and singing. That is, if you could not write Thai you had no opportunity to gain points for singing. However, the breakdown of points seems to have changed now and under the latest system I would actually have been able to earn more points. [1) Speaking and listening 8; 2) speaking, listening and singing 10; 3) speaking, listening, reading and singing 13; and 4)  speaking, listening, reading, writing and singing 15].

 

BTW I only squeaked through. 

 

Best of luck to you.

 

[GabbaGabbaHey]

As I have permanent residency but only 4.2 years (which is obviously under the 5 required), I'm considering applying for marriage reason. Previous to my PR, I have 9 consecutive years of Non-Immigrant Visa with an associated work permit in the same company and no interruption to the PR. Do you think this could give me any points for the length of presence in Thailand? I read in some posts that the law used to be changed, to include the past Non-Immigrant years - but I'm not sure if this is still the case. Anyone knows this?

[GabbaGabbaHey]

13 hours ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

As I have permanent residency but only 4.2 years (which is obviously under the 5 required), I'm considering applying for marriage reason. Previous to my PR, I have 9 consecutive years of Non-Immigrant Visa with an associated work permit in the same company and no interruption to the PR. Do you think this could give me any points for the length of presence in Thailand? I read in some posts that the law used to be changed, to include the past Non-Immigrant years - but I'm not sure if this is still the case. Anyone knows this?

I plan to clarify this with SB. Sadly if I stick to guidelines I just read on their website, it should get no points for that.

[Arkady]

13 hours ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

As I have permanent residency but only 4.2 years (which is obviously under the 5 required), I'm considering applying for marriage reason. Previous to my PR, I have 9 consecutive years of Non-Immigrant Visa with an associated work permit in the same company and no interruption to the PR. Do you think this could give me any points for the length of presence in Thailand? I read in some posts that the law used to be changed, to include the past Non-Immigrant years - but I'm not sure if this is still the case. Anyone knows this?

As far as I know, the method of calculation of points for residence was last changed in 2010 and is based on the date you got your residence book or alien book.  The intention of of that revamp of the points system was very obviously to take into the account the the amendment to the Nationality Act in 2008 that permitted males married to Thais to apply for citizenship without acquiring PR first.  For example the points for having a Thai wife and kids were scrapped completely and the points for PR were bumped up, so as to raise the hurdle somewhat for those applying on the basis of being married to a Thai. However, it is still not too difficult for most to get the necessary 50 points and the actual number of points is not even noted in the covering letter the police send to the MoI with your application after that.  It is just pass or fail, so no need to try to get 95+. 

 

If you apply on the basis of being married to a Thai, you will be exempted from the singing and will have a much easier and shorter interview at the MoI where your wife can help.  The only downside would be if something happened to your wife or your relationship with her before the interview.  For example, if you got divorced or she refused to come to the interview with you (I have heard of both of these cases happening), you might have to reapply from scratch as a PR.

 

It's best to double check any questions about details with SB because rules and interpretations change quite often, even though the basic law stays the same.

[GabbaGabbaHey]

6 minutes ago, Arkady said:

As far as I know, the method of calculation of points for residence was last changed in 2010 and is based on the date you got your residence book or alien book.  The intention of of that revamp of the points system was very obviously to take into the account the the amendment to the Nationality Act in 2008 that permitted males married to Thais to apply for citizenship without acquiring PR first.  For example the points for having a Thai wife and kids were scrapped completely and the points for PR were bumped up, so as to raise the hurdle somewhat for those applying on the basis of being married to a Thai. However, it is still not too difficult for most to get the necessary 50 points and the actual number of points is not even noted in the covering letter the police send to the MoI with your application after that.  It is just pass or fail, so no need to try to get 95+. 

 

If you apply on the basis of being married to a Thai, you will be exempted from the singing and will have a much easier and shorter interview at the MoI where your wife can help.  The only downside would be if something happened to your wife or your relationship with her before the interview.  For example, if you got divorced or she refused to come to the interview with you (I have heard of both of these cases happening), you might have to reapply from scratch as a PR.

 

It's best to double check any questions about details with SB because rules and interpretations change quite often, even though the basic law stays the same.

Thanks for the feedback and recommendations, Arkady (and GarryP). I have a better view and I think i'll start applying this month. In the worst case I still have the option to do it next year with 10 more pts from my PR.

[Arkady]

19 minutes ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

Thanks for the feedback and recommendations, Arkady (and GarryP). I have a better view and I think i'll start applying this month. In the worst case I still have the option to do it next year with 10 more pts from my PR.

In most cases like yours it is probably better to start as soon as possible, while there is still a regime in power that is favorable towards citizenship applications.  You can also save the angst of preparing for the singing test which is somewhat time consuming and daunting, although gives a great feeling of accomplishment, if you can do is successfully.  I would guess you will easily get over 50 points without the PR points.

 

[Anthony Loh]

I'm also very interested to become a Thai citizenship and will do more research for the application


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[GarryP]

1 hour ago, Arkady said:

As far as I know, the method of calculation of points for residence was last changed in 2010 and is based on the date you got your residence book or alien book.  The intention of of that revamp of the points system was very obviously to take into the account the the amendment to the Nationality Act in 2008 that permitted males married to Thais to apply for citizenship without acquiring PR first.  For example the points for having a Thai wife and kids were scrapped completely and the points for PR were bumped up, so as to raise the hurdle somewhat for those applying on the basis of being married to a Thai. However, it is still not too difficult for most to get the necessary 50 points and the actual number of points is not even noted in the covering letter the police send to the MoI with your application after that.  It is just pass or fail, so no need to try to get 95+. 

 

If you apply on the basis of being married to a Thai, you will be exempted from the singing and will have a much easier and shorter interview at the MoI where your wife can help.  The only downside would be if something happened to your wife or your relationship with her before the interview.  For example, if you got divorced or she refused to come to the interview with you (I have heard of both of these cases happening), you might have to reapply from scratch as a PR.

 

It's best to double check any questions about details with SB because rules and interpretations change quite often, even though the basic law stays the same.

 

51 minutes ago, Arkady said:

In most cases like yours it is probably better to start as soon as possible, while there is still a regime in power that is favorable towards citizenship applications.  You can also save the angst of preparing for the singing test which is somewhat time consuming and daunting, although gives a great feeling of accomplishment, if you can do is successfully.  I would guess you will easily get over 50 points without the PR points.

 

I am pretty sure that if it were not for the fact that we were under the current regime, my application would have been rejected. It is much faster under this lot. BTW I had to go through two sets of interviews before the large committee, which is extremely unusual. Was a really nerve wracking  period but the committee was definitely behind me, which gave me hope. Ultimately, it was definitely worth it. 

[Anthony Loh]

I'm holding a marriage non O visa also yellow house book with my Thai Wife and two children born in Thailand, we have a house in Chiangmai and we live together as a family for the pass ten over years, can I apply for the Thai citizenship? Please help to advise me for the procedures. Thank you,


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[GarryP]

6 minutes ago, Anthony Loh said:

I'm holding a marriage non O visa also yellow house book with my Thai Wife and two children born in Thailand, we have a house in Chiangmai and we live together as a family for the pass ten over years, can I apply for the Thai citizenship? Please help to advise me for the procedures. Thank you,


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

Have you held a work permit and paid income tax for the past 3 years? If not, you won't qualify based on marriage 

[Anthony Loh]

Have you held a work permit and paid income tax for the past 3 years? If not, you won't qualify based on marriage 

Thanks for your reply, I don't work in Thailand so I don't have that as my income come for overseas every month. If that said so, I will need to get a work permit to work in Thailand and paid tax for three years before I can apply in the next three years. Thank you very much for your advice.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[GabbaGabbaHey]

What kind of information will the two grantors have to provide, beside their ID and House registration? I read they need to inform of their income too, is it true and is it something you're able to see as an applicant? If so it might create a privacy issue for someone considering to pick his boss or even some friends. Is there anything else the grantors will have to reveal? btw what does it mean that they have to guarantee your assets? are they going to view your tax declaration and/or asset form filled by the applicant?

[GarryP]

For me they each provided a letter explaining their position salary and how long the had known me. They confirmed my salary and that was about it.  

[Arkady]

4 hours ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

What kind of information will the two grantors have to provide, beside their ID and House registration? I read they need to inform of their income too, is it true and is it something you're able to see as an applicant? If so it might create a privacy issue for someone considering to pick his boss or even some friends. Is there anything else the grantors will have to reveal? btw what does it mean that they have to guarantee your assets? are they going to view your tax declaration and/or asset form filled by the applicant?

 

Mine had to fill in forms in 2010 which included the information Garry mentioned. They also had to confirm my bank balance, according the statement I had submitted with my application which I thought was a bit odd, and my ownership of a condo.  I think it is a bit a bit of an issue asking people to disclose their salaries, as I was asked to collect the forms from the witnesses and give them to SB.  My witnesses were both former staff but one of them was very reluctant to disclose her salary for fear her former colleague would see it and I had to give her a detailed confidentiality undertaking.  Perhaps you can arrange for ;your witnesses to send their signed forms or statements direct to SB to avoid this sort of embarrassment but you would have to follow up with SB to make sure they received them and put them in the right folder.  I sought to avoid this issue by getting relatively junior people to be witnesses but it is not very nice for anyone at any level.  It is definitely not a good idea to ask your boss or anyone senior. 

 

As I have said before, contrary to popular belief, the seniority of your witnesses makes absolutely no difference to the priority your application gets.  If you know influential people who are willing to call in favours from very high level government connections on your behalf, that might help but they don't need to be your witnesses.  Under the current government applications are being considered in a more timely and transparent manner than under previous political governments, which often left applications in the drawer for years and years without explanation.  So there is no pressing need to try to find a  high level sponsor.

[Arkady]

5 hours ago, Anthony Loh said:

Thanks for your reply, I don't work in Thailand so I don't have that as my income come for overseas every month. If that said so, I will need to get a work permit to work in Thailand and paid tax for three years before I can apply in the next three years. Thank you very much for your advice.


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

 

They don't give the impression of trying to catch people out but they will ask detailed questions about your work in Thailand, if you apply,   Depending on who is in charge at the time and what budgets they have available the National Intelligence Agency (NIA) has sometimes sent people to take a look at your home and workplace and ask around to verify the information on your application form.  The year I applied the NIA gentleman that interviewed me told me straight up that they hadn't received any budget allocation to do any more than conduct interviews at Macdonalds Amarin Plaza with a free bottle of water for that year.  What I saying is that you would need to be working in a real business that could stand up to gentle scrutiny, although a small or medium sized business would be acceptable.  Also bear in mind that it may be better not to be a shareholder in the business where you have a work permit, as that would avoid having to submit detailed financial statements and, I think, tax returns of the business, as per the guidelines.  I was working for a company listed on the SET when I applied and carefully disposed of my shares in it before I applied, just to be safe and avoid having to hassle the company for all kinds of additional signed statements.

[GabbaGabbaHey]

55 minutes ago, Arkady said:

 

Mine had to fill in forms in 2010 which included the information Garry mentioned. They also had to confirm my bank balance, according the statement I had submitted with my application which I thought was a bit odd, and my ownership of a condo.  I think it is a bit a bit of an issue asking people to disclose their salaries, as I was asked to collect the forms from the witnesses and give them to SB.  My witnesses were both former staff but one of them was very reluctant to disclose her salary for fear her former colleague would see it and I had to give her a detailed confidentiality undertaking.  Perhaps you can arrange for ;your witnesses to send their signed forms or statements direct to SB to avoid this sort of embarrassment but you would have to follow up with SB to make sure they received them and put them in the right folder.  I sought to avoid this issue by getting relatively junior people to be witnesses but it is not very nice for anyone at any level.  It is definitely not a good idea to ask your boss or anyone senior. 

 

As I have said before, contrary to popular belief, the seniority of your witnesses makes absolutely no difference to the priority your application gets.  If you know influential people who are willing to call in favours from very high level government connections on your behalf, that might help but they don't need to be your witnesses.  Under the current government applications are being considered in a more timely and transparent manner than under previous political governments, which often left applications in the drawer for years and years without explanation.  So there is no pressing need to try to find a  high level sponsor.

Since they have to acknowledge the applicant's salary and bank statement, IMO a senior person that you know (thus already knowing your salary range) plus a junior person that you're not working with (like among the wife's friends) seem to work - provided that you politely ask them to fill the letter and send it either by post or by walking themselves to SB. I personally wouldn't find very polite to show my (higher) salary to my subordinates or peers for instance, but this is just my first impression. I'll think about it.

 

[GarryP]

10 hours ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

Since they have to acknowledge the applicant's salary and bank statement, IMO a senior person that you know (thus already knowing your salary range) plus a junior person that you're not working with (like among the wife's friends) seem to work - provided that you politely ask them to fill the letter and send it either by post or by walking themselves to SB. I personally wouldn't find very polite to show my (higher) salary to my subordinates or peers for instance, but this is just my first impression. I'll think about it.

 

Have someone in your HR Department act as a referee. They know your salary anyway. 

[GabbaGabbaHey]

44 minutes ago, GarryP said:

Have someone in your HR Department act as a referee. They know your salary anyway. 

Good point, even if they know the salary only and not the assets (but I don't mind on this). For male applicants, do we have to include in these assets the potential house(s) and condo(s)  owned by the wife, or is it individual and centered on your person?

[GarryP]

2 minutes ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

Good point, even if they know the salary only and not the assets (but I don't mind on this). For male applicants, do we have to include in these assets the potential house(s) and condo(s)  owned by the wife, or is it individual and centered on your person?

Purely my own assets, which at the time was limited to money in the bank and not much at that either. Spousal property is not of concern to them. Everything is down to whether you meet the requirements. 

[GabbaGabbaHey]

I have a question about the rule: "the Minister is empowered to revoke Thai nationality of a person who acquires Thai nationality by naturalization if it appears that there is evidence to show that he still makes use of his former nationality".

 

Let's say you got Thai citizenship and you're going to materialize (or not) your intention to cancel your former nationality, but you haven't taken the step yet. I wonder how not to be in trouble in today's highly social network oriented world where it's almost impossible for anyone to not be quoted in any online media, appearing associated with a former nationality's activities (business seminar, alumni, FCC, embassy activities... things like this) which seems to be a violation of the rule. Does it mean one has to ensure to always be quoted as a Thai national, to avoid any such activity/invitation and to somewhat behave with a low profile? Or am I being paranoid?
 

Edited March 10, 2017 by GabbaGabbaHey

[ubonjoe]

8 minutes ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

I have a question about the rule: "the Minister is empowered to revoke Thai nationality of a person who acquires Thai nationality by naturalization if it appears that there is evidence to show that he still makes use of his former nationality".

 

Let's say you got Thai citizenship and you're going to materialize (or not) your intention to cancel your former nationality, but you haven't taken the step yet. I wonder how not to be in trouble in today's highly social network oriented world where it's almost impossible for anyone to not be quoted in any online media, appearing associated with a former nationality's activities (business seminar, alumni, FCC, embassy activities... things like this) which seems to be a violation of the rule. Does it mean one has to ensure to always be quoted as a Thai national, to avoid any such activity/invitation and to somewhat behave with a low profile? Or am I being paranoid?
 

The chance of having your Thai nationality revoked under that clause is very small. It would take a lot of proof for it to reach the level of the interior minister to do the revocation.

Hearsay from social media or any other source would not be enough. You would almost have commit a crime in the country while in the country after using your other nationality to enter the country.

As long as you always enter the country using your Thai passport there would never be any problem.

[GabbaGabbaHey]

6 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

The chance of having your Thai nationality revoked under that clause is very small. It would take a lot of proof for it to reach the level of the interior minister to do the revocation.

Hearsay from social media or any other source would not be enough. You would almost have commit a crime in the country while in the country after using your other nationality to enter the country.

As long as you always enter the country using your Thai passport there would never be any problem.

Thanks. I'm glad to hear that.

[Arkady]

5 hours ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

I have a question about the rule: "the Minister is empowered to revoke Thai nationality of a person who acquires Thai nationality by naturalization if it appears that there is evidence to show that he still makes use of his former nationality".

 

Let's say you got Thai citizenship and you're going to materialize (or not) your intention to cancel your former nationality, but you haven't taken the step yet. I wonder how not to be in trouble in today's highly social network oriented world where it's almost impossible for anyone to not be quoted in any online media, appearing associated with a former nationality's activities (business seminar, alumni, FCC, embassy activities... things like this) which seems to be a violation of the rule. Does it mean one has to ensure to always be quoted as a Thai national, to avoid any such activity/invitation and to somewhat behave with a low profile? Or am I being paranoid?
 

Admittedly the new guideline requirement you refer only dates back to 2010 but there is no record in the Royal Gazette of any naturalised Thais having their citizenship revoked under this provision since the current 1965 Act came into effect.  There are plenty of instances of Thais who acquired Thai nationality through birth to two alien parents in the Kingdom losing it under the comparable provision though.  Most of them were Chinese who stayed in China too long - more than 5 years.  There was one Brit who lost it in 1994 by providing evidence of his continuing interest in British nationality entering the Kingdom on a British passport. I think that is the most recent case or nearly the most recent case on record.  These cases are now rare because it is now (since 1971) only possible to acquire Thai nationality through birth in the Kingdom to two alien parents who both had PR at the time.

 

As you know, just about anything can happen in this country and the past is not necessarily a guide to the future.  However, as Ubonjoe said, it is a big thing to revoke nationality and has to go up to the minister.  In normal times they are worried about being sued in the Administrative Court, although I am not sure what rights there will be to do this under the new constitution.  It seems unlikely there will be witch hunt but caution is warranted.  Bear in mind that the declaration serves a real purpose vis a vis Chinese and Indians, who comprise the vast majority of applicants because their governments will automatically revoke their citizenship when they know they have another one.

[GabbaGabbaHey]

I know the process to legalize my university diploma (translate in thai language/legalize the signature by the embassy/legalize the signature by thai authorities), but I'm unsure for documents directly issued by the embassy -letter of intention and certificate of legal age-. Do these need the same steps (and two times at the embassy in this case) or  the translation in thai is enough -but then it would need an approved translator from thai authorities if such list exists-?

 

[Arkady]

33 minutes ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

I know the process to legalize my university diploma (translate in thai language/legalize the signature by the embassy/legalize the signature by thai authorities), but I'm unsure for documents directly issued by the embassy -letter of intention and certificate of legal age-. Do these need the same steps (and two times at the embassy in this case) or  the translation in thai is enough -but then it would need an approved translator from thai authorities if such list exists-?

 

 

You need to check with SB what are the current requirements for this sort of thing, as the SB department director has a lot of discretion and the policies change with the directors.  In 2010 the director didn't require legalisation of the translations of educational certificates by embassy or the issuing universities which saved a lot of trouble and expense.  The certificate of legal age was not required at all, as the director was willing to take a rational view that anyone over a certain age must be of legal age in any country in the world.  The declaration of intent needed the full treatment, i.e. certified translation legalised by Ministry of Foreign Affairs. 

 

Remember that you are dealing with SB, not Immigration, and they are just trying to tick all the boxes to cover themselves, not pointlessly making life difficult for you or trying to make you fail. Please post the answers here when you find out to help others.

[SWW]

On 3/9/2017 at 0:40 PM, Arkady said:

If you apply on the basis of being married to a Thai, you will be exempted from the singing and will have a much easier and shorter interview at the MoI where your wife can help.  The only downside would be if something happened to your wife or your relationship with her before the interview.  For example, if you got divorced or she refused to come to the interview with you (I have heard of both of these cases happening), you might have to reapply from scratch as a PR.

I am in a situation where I applied in December 2015, and have had the interviews with the police (one with the chap at SB, one with the guys in McD and the big one with everyone and the head police dude in their big meeting room). But since the last meeting in around July last year I have not heard another thing. SB told me the application is with the Ministry of the Interior, and I should wait for them to contact me for the interview with them. Since then I have not heard anything.

 

However, my wife has recently been having health issues (involving a heart operation), and it's not beyond the realms of possibility that "something could happen to her" either before or after the interview, were one to happen. This has of course added to the general stress of everything.

 

If something did happen to my wife before the interview, then my application would be void - but what about if something happened to her after the interview but before the end of the process, which can also take a long time?

 

Worried,

 

SWW