Story Of My Thai Citizenship Application

[Arkady]

37 minutes ago, greenchair said:

Where do I get the naturalization certificate? ? 

You receive the naturalisation certificate from SB, if you have been naturalised.  But since you didn't get one and already have your ID card, I assume you must be a lady who has adopted her Thai husband's Thai nationality (a direct translation of the Thai wording) under Section 9 of the Act.  That is not considered as naturalisation per se, so you don't get a naturalisation certificate and save the fee.  Since there is no requirement for HMK to approve Section 9 applicants, there is obviously no letter signed by HMK either.  However, you benefited from two less steps in your process, as you wouldn't have had to make the oath of allegiance either, which saves probably about a year on average all told.     

 

I believe you get notarised copies of your Royal Gazette announcement (not the bound copy I referred to), same as the rest of us, and I expect there was also a letter from SB confirming this to the district office, so you could get your ID card.  If you need evidence of your Thai nationality, in lieu of a naturalisation certificate, at the Land Office or similar, copies of these documents should do the trick.  Since the Thai official view of women is only one or two rungs up the ladder from Saudi Arabia's, it may not be envisaged that wives would be doing such things as buying land anyway.    

[greenchair]

36 minutes ago, Arkady said:

You receive the naturalisation certificate from SB, if you have been naturalised.  But since you didn't get one and already have your ID card, I assume you must be a lady who has adopted her Thai husband's Thai nationality (a direct translation of the Thai wording) under Section 9 of the Act.  That is not considered as naturalisation per se, so you don't get a naturalisation certificate and save the fee.  Since there is no requirement for HMK to approve Section 9 applicants, there is obviously no letter signed by HMK either.  However, you benefited from two less steps in your process, as you wouldn't have had to make the oath of allegiance either, which saves probably about a year on average all told.     

 

I believe you get notarised copies of your Royal Gazette announcement (not the bound copy I referred to), same as the rest of us, and I expect there was also a letter from SB confirming this to the district office, so you could get your ID card.  If you need evidence of your Thai nationality, in lieu of a naturalisation certificate, at the Land Office or similar, copies of these documents should do the trick.  Since the Thai official view of women is only one or two rungs up the ladder from Saudi Arabia's, it may not be envisaged that wives would be doing such things as buying land anyway.    

Lol. So I'm a citizen I guess. 

I really would have liked a ceremony and a certificate. 

It's kind of hard for me to believe. 

[greenchair]

39 minutes ago, Arkady said:

You receive the naturalisation certificate from SB, if you have been naturalised.  But since you didn't get one and already have your ID card, I assume you must be a lady who has adopted her Thai husband's Thai nationality (a direct translation of the Thai wording) under Section 9 of the Act.  That is not considered as naturalisation per se, so you don't get a naturalisation certificate and save the fee.  Since there is no requirement for HMK to approve Section 9 applicants, there is obviously no letter signed by HMK either.  However, you benefited from two less steps in your process, as you wouldn't have had to make the oath of allegiance either, which saves probably about a year on average all told.     

 

I believe you get notarised copies of your Royal Gazette announcement (not the bound copy I referred to), same as the rest of us, and I expect there was also a letter from SB confirming this to the district office, so you could get your ID card.  If you need evidence of your Thai nationality, in lieu of a naturalisation certificate, at the Land Office or similar, copies of these documents should do the trick.  Since the Thai official view of women is only one or two rungs up the ladder from Saudi Arabia's, it may not be envisaged that wives would be doing such things as buying land anyway.    

Or perhaps they give foreigner woman a higher status than a foreigner man, so create an easier process for us exquisite damsels that are very hard to find. 

We also do not have to have 400000 show money and recieve quite a few extra benefits by being a woman. Perhaps they feel that we can be a Thai without the need to take an oath as we already pledged an oath to our thai husband. 

[Arkady]

50 minutes ago, greenchair said:

Or perhaps they give foreigner woman a higher status than a foreigner man, so create an easier process for us exquisite damsels that are very hard to find. 

We also do not have to have 400000 show money and recieve quite a few extra benefits by being a woman. Perhaps they feel that we can be a Thai without the need to take an oath as we already pledged an oath to our thai husband. 

 

Actually the origin of this is that it used to be normal in most countries' nationality laws to automatically cancel the citizenship of women who married aliens.  The UK only stopped doing this in its 1948 Nationality Act.  (In Thailand the practise continued for a few years longer with large numbers of Thai Chinese women losing their Thai nationality on marrying local Chinese men who declined to take up Thai citizenship, even if entitled to it through birth in the Kingdom, to avoid military service.)  The flip side of this was that women had to be given special rights to adopt the nationality of their foreign husbands, bypassing naturalisation procedures, in order for countries to avoid getting their male citizens lumbered with stateless wives.  The UK only cancelled the right to automatic citizenship for foreign wives of male British citizens in the 1971 Nationality Act.  

 

Whereas most Western countries have eliminated the old gender biases completely in their nationality laws and no longer have the special provisions for foreign wives to bypass naturalisation procedures, Thailand has gone to an odd half way house.  The naturalisation process is still bypassed but the right for foreign wives is no longer automatic or immediate.   The original bill that became the 2008 amendment that permitted foreign husbands to apply for citizenship without PR actually provided for foreign husbands to apply under Section 9 in the same way as you did, in the interests of complete gender equality.  But the idea caused utter panic in the Interior Ministry's legal department which advised strongly against this and Parliament accepted its advice.  The only other alternative to introduce absolute gender would have been to have deleted Section 9 entirely but that would have created problems for wealthy, influential Thais marrying foreign women, who were not expected to work and would therefore never be able to obtain Thai citizenship. 

 

Approval by HMK and a consequent oath of allegiance are not required because the naturalisation procedure is bypassed based on previous versions of the law that necessarily provided for automatic and immediate Thai citizenship for foreign women marrying Thais who had just been rendered stateless.  You are probably right in that officials assume that the loyalty of the the foreign wives is through their loyal Thai husbands.  I doubt that many people at the Interior Ministry or SB have the faintest idea why the law is as it is in this respect, as I doubt that they have any interest in legal history.    
  

 

[BaanBKK]

Hi All,

 

Very useful thread and very informative. Quick question, I took the oath of allegiance on Tuesday. Any idea how fast RTG publishing and naturalization certificate issuance should run from here? I know it is not possible to say with total accuracy, but educated guesses are appreciated.

[skippybangkok]

Hi All,
 
Very useful thread and very informative. Quick question, I took the oath of allegiance on Tuesday. Any idea how fast RTG publishing and naturalization certificate issuance should run from here? I know it is not possible to say with total accuracy, but educated guesses are appreciated.

About 6-8 months


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[dbrenn]

13 hours ago, BaanBKK said:

Hi All,

 

Very useful thread and very informative. Quick question, I took the oath of allegiance on Tuesday. Any idea how fast RTG publishing and naturalization certificate issuance should run from here? I know it is not possible to say with total accuracy, but educated guesses are appreciated.

A friend of mine just received his naturalisation certificate less than 2 months after his oath.

[Arkady]

13 hours ago, BaanBKK said:

Hi All,

 

Very useful thread and very informative. Quick question, I took the oath of allegiance on Tuesday. Any idea how fast RTG publishing and naturalization certificate issuance should run from here? I know it is not possible to say with total accuracy, but educated guesses are appreciated.

Probably anywhere between 2 and 12 months would be a realistic answer but the current government, unlike many of its predecessors, doesn't like unreasonable delays.  The process for posting orders in the Royal Gazette is a bit hard to fathom.  Usually they are gazetted about a month after the date the order is signed but sometimes it takes a couple of months or more.  I have seen a citizenship announcement that was published a full five months after it was signed.

[TheChiefJustice]

Glad to see this thread is still alive and well and continues to provide useful information to those considering applying for Thai citizenship.

I must say that life has been very uncomplicated since I received my Thai citizenship in 2012. Having a Thai ID card and a Thai passport has made all dealings with Government authorities so much easier. Most of all I wanted it for peace of mind.

Good luck to all those who have applied or who are thinking of doing so. It can be a long wait - but for me it was worth it.


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[sas_cars]

Can someone post a copy of naturalization certificate? Offcourse blank out personal details

[TheChiefJustice]

1 hour ago, sas_cars said:

Can someone post a copy of naturalization certificate? Offcourse blank out personal details

Here is mine from 2012.

[sas_cars]

Thanks @ the chief justice. Seems like a real important document for newly minted thais. I guess every body should insist on getting it.

[TheChiefJustice]

5 minutes ago, sas_cars said:

Thanks @ the chief justice. Seems like a real important document for newly minted thais. I guess every body should insist on getting it.

Everyone who acquires Thai citizenship by naturalisation will receive this document so there is no need to insist on it.   It is given as a matter of course once your name has been published in the Royal Gazette.   I also managed to get a copy of my approval that was signed by HM - but that was a favour from the police and not a document that is usually given as a matter of course.

[sas_cars]

Everyone who acquires Thai citizenship by naturalisation will receive this document so there is no need to insist on it.   It is given as a matter of course once your name has been published in the Royal Gazette.   I also managed to get a copy of my approval that was signed by HM - but that was a favour from the police and not a document that is usually given as a matter of course.

Does HM actually signs it himself?

[TheChiefJustice]

36 minutes ago, sas_cars said:

 

Does HM actually signs it himself?

 

The other document I am referring to does bear his signature, yes.

[onthemoon]

On 6/22/2017 at 4:02 PM, Arkady said:

Re naturalisation certificate.  This is an important document that you may be asked for a copy of on a number of occasions in future.  An example would be at the Land Department when you go to buy land.  Although some naturalised Thais have not been asked for this, I have been asked for it in two different land offices.  Like many things in government offices, policy may vary from  place to place.  If you lose it or pour coffee on it, you can obtain a duplicate from SB for 1,000 baht.   

Wow. I would have thought that once you have the citizen ID and tabien baan, you wouldn't need to show the naturalisation certificate any more. Because you wouldn't have gotten the ID card without it. So they seem to be doubting the district office that issued the ID card.... ?

[skippybangkok]

14 hours ago, onthemoon said:

Wow. I would have thought that once you have the citizen ID and tabien baan, you wouldn't need to show the naturalisation certificate any more. Because you wouldn't have gotten the ID card without it. So they seem to be doubting the district office that issued the ID card.... ?

 

Good info about the duplicate, I am am good at loosing things. 

 

and yes, I too was asked for it when buying property 

[Arkady]

On 6/24/2017 at 9:03 AM, onthemoon said:

Wow. I would have thought that once you have the citizen ID and tabien baan, you wouldn't need to show the naturalisation certificate any more. Because you wouldn't have gotten the ID card without it. So they seem to be doubting the district office that issued the ID card.... ?

This would be a logical assumption and the first time it happened to me I was a little offended and annoyed, particularly as it hadn't occurred to me to bring it and I faced wasting another half day going back the Land Office.  However, the officials said they could accept a fax and offered the use of their fax machine and luckily there was someone in my home who was able to find a copy of it and fax it over.  

 

Thinking about it later, I realised that the officials are just trying to cover their backsides in case someone does use fake Thai ID documents to buy land, and no doubt it must have happened more than once.  Of course they should trust district offices to issue ID cards to bona fide Thai citizens only.  However, there have been many cases in the news of district offices taking bribes to issue ID cards to foreigners in the names of deceased Thais who would have been about the same age, if they had lived (a la Day of the Jackle).  Admittedly these are usually Asian foreigners but the Land Office officials may feel that you can't be too careful these days with so many Russian and other gangsters operating with complete impunity in Thailand. The fact that a copy of a naturalisation certificate is much easier to forge than an ID card which has electronic data in it doesn't matter.  The extra piece of bumpf in the file shows there bosses that they did some due diligence and gives them piece of mind.  It doesn't cross their minds that this may be discriminatory racial profiling of Thai citizens because there is very little awareness of this kind of thing in Thai society, which, in spite of constitutional prohibitions, routinely discriminates against its citizens on grounds of skin colour, racial origin and religion.  You look foreign, so they have a right to question your Thainess.  But, once we know and can go prepared to the Land Office, we don't really care, because we are Thai and can buy land with just one additional piece of paper.  

[skippybangkok]

When applying for a Thai passport for new borns, do both parents need to go ? Or just one


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[red horse]

When applying for a Thai passport for new borns, do both parents need to go ? Or just one


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Both


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[skippybangkok]

Both


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Thanks



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[MrPatrickThai]

On 6/8/2017 at 11:18 PM, ThaiCitizen said:

I decided to get the charity to write a new letter, one less worry!

I’ve now got all the important documents together, just got to photocopy WP, passports, Tabien Baans etc. Btw, do I have to sign every page for my WP, Passport, Degree, Tabien Baan.

What about the back of the photos?

The latest is that I don’t submit to the woman at the amphur but in fact to a Santibaan station, out of the centre of town in Khon Kaen.

I have just started the process in Khon Kaen. 

The first step for me was to go to the Amphur to get the Alien ID card. Second step - Dept of Forensics out near the Uni. they took my fingerprints and told me to go to the Special Branch next door. They told me(after a phone call to Bangkok) to got to a SB office in the centre of town and gave the officer's name. If you need more detail, feel free to PM me. Nobody really knows what they are doing as they have never done it before. Forensics say they will call me in a week or so to go back. I plan to go to the SB officer to submit the documents today or tomorrow.

[MrPatrickThai]

Edited

Edited July 3, 2017 by MrPatrickThai
bad grammar

[GarryP]

7 minutes ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Here’s an update on my last post.

I picked up my clearance from the Forensic dept. today then went to the Special branch.

There’s a LOT more to do! First, one of my kids was born in Bangkok so have to get her birth certificate stamped by the local Amphur in Bkk, also the birth certificate of another kid in the province she was born in. My wife has to go to her home town, 400km away to get a stamp on our wedding certificate and a letter from the Ampur about her changing her Tabien Baan to Khon kaen. Also, the same for my 'tabien bahn'.

The officer said that I would have to sing the national anthem and royal song but would get the karaoke version and some people from the Amphur would also be there. I think this is instead of an interview. He also said it was just a formality if the documents are OK.

Also, the two Thais that vouch for my good character must do one more copy, my fault.

So, what I thought was straightforward, isn’t.

Going to check with Bangkok SB tomorrow to check if all this is required but the officer is being really helpful as we have some mutual friends in Khon Kaen. I don’t want him to lose face, so will be diplomatic about it. Singing the songs is no biggy for me.

If you are applying based on marriage, then singing the national and royal anthems is optional, not mandatory.  It sounds to be a really weird setup  where you are. Also, if you elect to sing the anthems before the committee in Bangkok, I understand that you are no longer allowed to use a "cheat sheet", must be from memory alone. As I said, it sounds weird what you are being told you have to do. 

[MrPatrickThai]

Here’s an update on my last post.

I picked up my clearance from the Forensic dept. today then went to the Special branch.

There’s a LOT more to do! First, one of my kids was born in Bangkok so have to get her birth certificate stamped by the local Amphur, also the birth certificate of another kid in the province she was born in. My wife has to go to her home town, 400km away to get a stamp on our wedding certificate and a letter from the Ampur about her changing her Tabien Baan to Khon kaen.

The officer said that I would have to sing the national anthem and royal song but would get the karaoke version and some people from the Amphur would also be there. I think this is instead of an interview. He also said it was just a formality if the documents are OK.

Also, the two Thais that vouch for my good character must do one more copy, my fault.

So, what I thought was straightforward, isn’t.

Going to check with Bangkok SB tomorrow to check if all this is required but the officer is being really helpful as we have some mutual friends in Khon Kaen. I don’t want him to lose face, so will be diplomatic about it. Singing the songs is no biggy for me.

[MrPatrickThai]

1 minute ago, GarryP said:

If you are applying based on marriage, then singing the national and royal anthems is optional, not mandatory.  It sounds to be a really weird setup  where you are. Also, if you elect to sing the anthems before the committee in Bangkok, I understand that you are no longer allowed to use a "cheat sheet", must be from memory alone. As I said, it sounds weird what you are being told you have to do. 

Thanks GaryP. I know it sounds weird and is mandatory. Like I said, maybe just an alternative to the interview by the Special Branch.

[greenchair]

1 hour ago, MrPatrickThai said:

Here’s an update on my last post.

I picked up my clearance from the Forensic dept. today then went to the Special branch.

There’s a LOT more to do! First, one of my kids was born in Bangkok so have to get her birth certificate stamped by the local Amphur, also the birth certificate of another kid in the province she was born in. My wife has to go to her home town, 400km away to get a stamp on our wedding certificate and a letter from the Ampur about her changing her Tabien Baan to Khon kaen.

The officer said that I would have to sing the national anthem and royal song but would get the karaoke version and some people from the Amphur would also be there. I think this is instead of an interview. He also said it was just a formality if the documents are OK.

Also, the two Thais that vouch for my good character must do one more copy, my fault.

So, what I thought was straightforward, isn’t.

Going to check with Bangkok SB tomorrow to check if all this is required but the officer is being really helpful as we have some mutual friends in Khon Kaen. I don’t want him to lose face, so will be diplomatic about it. Singing the songs is no biggy for me.

Please remember to make copies of all of this and keep in folder, as you must go through the entire process again when applying for your id card. 

Ahem, without the anthem. 

[Arkady]

6 hours ago, GarryP said:

If you are applying based on marriage, then singing the national and royal anthems is optional, not mandatory.  It sounds to be a really weird setup  where you are. Also, if you elect to sing the anthems before the committee in Bangkok, I understand that you are no longer allowed to use a "cheat sheet", must be from memory alone. As I said, it sounds weird what you are being told you have to do. 

 

Cheat sheets for singing were allowed when the OP sang at the MoI but were banned several years ago.  The MoI committee will not waste their time and sensibilities listening to singing from applicants who are not obliged to sing.  For those applying based on marriage to a Thai, singing is only an option at SB, if you would like to get full points for the Thai language section, for which you also need to do the reading and writing tests.  Cheat sheets may be allowed for this, depending on the mood of the current SB department director.  It's only worth going to this trouble, if you are short of points and/or are very confident of being able to learn to sing the songs well without too much time and effort.  SB only required verification by the issuing authorities of work permit, tabien baan, residence book and alien book (the last two only if you have PR) and they give you letters to take to them to explain the format they need which is a "angsue raprong",  rather than just a stamp on a copy.  

 

It sounds as if the guy in Khon Kaen is trying hard but the guidelines are very unclear and, because the MoI seeks to downplay the 2008 exemptions for foreign males married to Thais, this is largely glossed over and ignored in the guidelines.  Thus it is understandable that he wouldn't know that singing is not required.  It is also quite likely that other departments are not interested in helping, if asked,  but Thai civil servants prefer to follow their own noses and make up their own rules anyway, rather than lose face by asking someone else.            

[GabbaGabbaHey]

My set of documents has been completed at SB for more than one month, but surprisingly I haven't been asked to come to sign my application. This means no fingerprints, no payment, no letters from SB yet. The officer told I had to wait and not hurry, and I'm not. I'm just curious why it's like this, I thought the checking would start after the application is signed and payment done but it seems either the opposite is happening either it's something else.

[Arkady]

27 minutes ago, GabbaGabbaHey said:

My set of documents has been completed at SB for more than one month, but surprisingly I haven't been asked to come to sign my application. This means no fingerprints, no payment, no letters from SB yet. The officer told I had to wait and not hurry, and I'm not. I'm just curious why it's like this, I thought the checking would start after the application is signed and payment done but it seems either the opposite is happening either it's something else.

You are right.  The checking with other departments can only start after SB has accepted your application after language tests and interview have been carried out by SB including section head and his boss (the director upstairs) and they have finger printed you and received the fee.  Then they will send your file around to other agencies for vetting and give you letters to get your WP and tabien baan certified.  When all is done, your file will be sent to the MoI.  Perhaps there is some delay in getting the director to see you or sign.  Give it a couple more weeks or another month and, if still nothing, drop by the office with some fruit or sticky sweets that Thais love as an excuse.  They might be open face to face.