I still don't think the sky is falling ......but

[Kinnock]

1 minute ago, Jeffr2 said:

That's a pretty blanket statement.  The responses were all over the board.  From next to nothing (US, UK, etc) to massive (China, Japan, Thailand).

 

With approaching 600k dead in the US, and hundreds of thousands more either hospitalized or suffering long term health effects...or both.  I'd say the risk is massive.  For the US, they lost more people than in the wars combined since WW1.  Incredible.

 

China locked down hard.  Guess what?  Life's pretty much back to normal and their economy rocked at 18% recently.  Wow!

 

We should take China's lead and we'd be done with this.

Except for China and Vietnam, and possibly Australia, which seems to be approaching a police state, there are no other countries with the centralized government power to do what China did.

 

So by choosing a strategy of a watered down version of what they saw in China, but without the power, they doomed their countries to a drawn out and ultimately futile mess of repeated lockdowns and restrictions.

 

If they'd diverted the cash wasted on propping up airlines to improving hospitals, and kept the economy afloat by not locking down, then it would have been a viable strategy- but copying China was never going to work in a democracy.

[Jeffr2]

3 minutes ago, Kinnock said:

Except for China and Vietnam, and possibly Australia, which seems to be approaching a police state, there are no other countries with the centralized government power to do what China did.

 

So by choosing a strategy of a watered down version of what they saw in China, but without the power, they doomed their countries to a drawn out and ultimately futile mess of repeated lockdowns and restrictions.

 

If they'd diverted the cash wasted on propping up airlines to improving hospitals, and kept the economy afloat by not locking down, then it would have been a viable strategy- but copying China was never going to work in a democracy.

You really need to do some research on this.  You've left out South Korea, New Zealand, Norway, etc, etc, etc.  Many countries 100% locked down.  Even Canada closed it's borders and it's very difficult to get there even now.

[Kinnock]

7 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

You make this too easy....LOL

 

https://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/global/diarrhea-burden.html

 

 

 

https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/diarrhoeal-disease

 

 

 

https://www.gatesfoundation.org/our-work/programs/global-health/enteric-and-diarrheal-diseases

 

 

 

CDC is not a first world leader.

 

Gates is not a first world leader 

 

Of course charities and organisations show concern, but it is not a priority for first world governments - certainly not to the same extent as COVID.

 

The fact is that fear amongst social media obsessed first world governments and their populations has created a response all out of response to the actual risk.

 

If First World people really wanted to reduce their risks to health, they should lose weight, improve diet, get fit, and if global health risks was their true concern, then improving water quality in the Third World and eradicating malaria should be up there with COVID.

 

But it's not ..... and what we see instead is a selfish response of grabbing  vaccine supplies and shutting down businesses.

[Kinnock]

1 minute ago, Jeffr2 said:

You really need to do some research on this.  You've left out South Korea, New Zealand, Norway, etc, etc, etc.  Many countries 100% locked down.  Even Canada closed it's borders and it's very difficult to get there even now.

I don't need to rely on the internet .... I was in South Korea late last year and in China before that.  What happened in countries other than China was a watered down version as they are not totalitarian regimes.

 

Outside of China needed a different approach - but the fear gripped Goverments and they made serious errors of judgement- now were all paying the price.

 

But discussions with people who get all their information from Google are never fruitful, so let's call it quits.

[starky]

49 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

You keep harping on about co-morbidities.  In the end, it's covid that triggers the death.

 

You ignore long covid.  You're basing your arguments on stats that have been proven to be under reported.  Many countries don't even report numbers.

 

And in the end...over 3MM have died globally.  And it's not done with us yet. 

 

Why do you like to downplay the severity of this pandemic?  I don't get it.

My response is why do you assume you are right? I'm not denying covid I looking at the facts as they stand based on the numbers if you have any proof to the contrary as I keep saying provide it.

 I dont believe in scaremongering. You say I'm down playing I say your attempting to blow it out of proportion...I'm not harping on about co-morbidities medical experts are. Your refusing to accept the facts as published. Argue with them not me

[Jeffr2]

5 minutes ago, Kinnock said:

CDC is not a first world leader.

 

Gates is not a first world leader 

 

Of course charities and organisations show concern, but it is not a priority for first world governments - certainly not to the same extent as COVID.

 

The fact is that fear amongst social media obsessed first world governments and their populations has created a response all out of response to the actual risk.

 

If First World people really wanted to reduce their risks to health, they should lose weight, improve diet, get fit, and if global health risks was their true concern, then improving water quality in the Third World and eradicating malaria should be up there with COVID.

 

But it's not ..... and what we see instead is a selfish response of grabbing  vaccine supplies and shutting down businesses.

CDC, part of the US government, is not a global leader?  Nor is the WHO?  You might not know that because of Gates and his funding, we have the mRNA jabs.  Pfizer and Moderna.  But yeah, nothing to do with the entire world. LOL

 

Wow....OK.  You win. LOL.

[starky]

1 minute ago, Kinnock said:

I don't need to rely on the internet .... I was in South Korea late last year and in China before that.  What happened in countries other than China was a watered down version as they are not totalitarian regimes.

 

Outside of China needed a different approach - but the fear gripped Goverments and they made serious errors of judgement- now were all paying the price.

 

But discussions with people who get all their information from Google are never fruitful, so let's call it quits.

Well said and with the poster you replied to who basically has a comment on everything that is ever said about covid the assumption is he is 100% infallible and evey person he replies to is 100% incorrect. 

[Tagged]

7 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

You really need to do some research on this.  You've left out South Korea, New Zealand, Norway, etc, etc, etc.  Many countries 100% locked down.  Even Canada closed it's borders and it's very difficult to get there even now.

Norway have only done it half hearted, and it is rediculous to vitness their stupidity. Those who had no purpose of travel have quarantine, and those who can prove they had valid purpose do not need? No forced strict quarantine before easter, and many more looholes repeted to many times. Norway could have been almost finished on a level like Thailand, but, nope. 

 

We have to much import of virus. Norway only 5 million people and low density. 

[Jeffr2]

5 minutes ago, Kinnock said:

I don't need to rely on the internet .... I was in South Korea late last year and in China before that.  What happened in countries other than China was a watered down version as they are not totalitarian regimes.

 

Outside of China needed a different approach - but the fear gripped Goverments and they made serious errors of judgement- now were all paying the price.

 

But discussions with people who get all their information from Google are never fruitful, so let's call it quits.

You forgot about Taiwan?  Perhaps using the internet would be a good thing for research.

[Jeffr2]

3 minutes ago, starky said:

Well said and with the poster you replied to who basically has a comment on everything that is ever said about covid the assumption is he is 100% infallible and evey person he replies to is 100% incorrect. 

I mainly post credible links.  My opinion means nothing.  And I'm far from 100% infallible.  Just don't like it when members here post misinformation.

[ozimoron]

20 minutes ago, Kinnock said:

So by choosing a strategy of a watered down version of what they saw in China, but without the power, they doomed their countries to a drawn out and ultimately futile mess of repeated lockdowns and restrictions.

 

If they'd diverted the cash wasted on propping up airlines to improving hospitals, and kept the economy afloat by not locking down, then it would have been a viable strategy- but copying China was never going to work in a democracy.

 

Your solution is more ICU's?

 

What part of no active cases of coronavirus nationwide and more jobs than pre covid do you consider futile?

 

11 minutes ago, Kinnock said:

and if global health risks was their true concern, then improving water quality in the Third World and eradicating malaria should be up there with COVID.

 

But it's not ..... and what we see instead is a selfish response of grabbing  vaccine supplies and shutting down businesses.

 

It is, mRNA technology is being explored for potential as a malaria vaccine and such a vaccine is under development.

 

6 minutes ago, Kinnock said:

I don't need to rely on the internet ...

 

Pretty obviously the case.

[Jeffr2]

3 minutes ago, Tagged said:

Norway have only done it half hearted, and it is rediculous to vitness their stupidity. Those who had no purpose of travel have quarantine, and those who can prove they had valid purpose do not need? No forced strict quarantine before easter, and many more looholes repeted to many times. Norway could have been almost finished on a level like Thailand, but, nope. 

 

We have to much import of virus. Norway only 5 million people and low density. 

700 deaths in Norway.  I'd say they did pretty good.  Especially compared to the 2,200+ in Sweden.

 

Lock downs suck, but they saved lives.  And has helped prevent the spread of this deadly virus.

[Kinnock]

3 minutes ago, ozimoron said:

 

Your solution is more ICU's?

 

What part of no active cases of coronavirus nationwide and more jobs than pre covid do you consider futile?

 

 

It is, mRNA technology is being explored for potential as a malaria vaccine and such a vaccine is under development.

 

 

Pretty obviously the case.

How long has malaria been around, and still no effective vaccine? And destroying the vector is comparatively simple of there was a global effort.

 

You cannot believe that the world is responding to other major causes of death in the same way it responded to COVID?

[Excel]

34 minutes ago, Kinnock said:

Except for China and Vietnam, and possibly Australia, which seems to be approaching a police state, there are no other countries with the centralized government power to do what China did.

 

So by choosing a strategy of a watered down version of what they saw in China, but without the power, they doomed their countries to a drawn out and ultimately futile mess of repeated lockdowns and restrictions.

 

If they'd diverted the cash wasted on propping up airlines to improving hospitals, and kept the economy afloat by not locking down, then it would have been a viable strategy- but copying China was never going to work in a democracy.

Democracy here in Thailand, where have you been the last few years ?

[Jeffr2]

3 minutes ago, Kinnock said:

How long has malaria been around, and still no effective vaccine? And destroying the vector is comparatively simple of there was a global effort.

 

You cannot believe that the world is responding to other major causes of death in the same way it responded to COVID?

Completely off topic and just a deflection.  Can we focus on Covid?  That's the topic here.

[ozimoron]

1 minute ago, Kinnock said:

How long has malaria been around, and still no effective vaccine? And destroying the vector is comparatively simple of there was a global effort.

 

Because it took a world wide pandemic of catastrophic proportions to get the funding going for a technology that has been under development for over a decade - mRNA

1 minute ago, Kinnock said:

 

You cannot believe that the world is responding to other major causes of death in the same way it responded to COVID?

 

Not understanding? I believe that the world is responding appropriately to covid, except for extremist right wing governments who only respond to corporate donors who have a vested interest in keeping the economy open regardless of public health. Fortunately, some countries have proven that putting public health first benefits the economy most.

[Tagged]

26 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

700 deaths in Norway.  I'd say they did pretty good.  Especially compared to the 2,200+ in Sweden.

 

Lock downs suck, but they saved lives.  And has helped prevent the spread of this deadly virus.

My point is, we did not need lock down as much as they did, if they just controlled the borders better. Sweeden is a different chapter, and as said we (they since Im in Thailand) could lived free inside the borders since may last year, and saved many businesses and also prevented mental illness in a better way. Of course everything is not black and white, but as said, 5 million poeple living free inside a country have higher value than keeping the borders open, or almost open without quarantine. 

 

Again, not against lock down if necessery, but the half hearted lock downs and half hearted quaratine is not good enough

[Jeffr2]

18 minutes ago, Tagged said:

My point is, we did not need lock down as much as they did, if they just controlled the borders better. Sweeden is a different chapter, and as said we (they since Im in Thailand) could lived free inside the borders since may last year, and saved many businesses and also prevented mental illness in a better way. Of course everything is not black and white, but as said, 5 million poeple living free inside a country have higher value than keeping the borders open, or almost open without quarantine. 

 

Again, not against lock down if necessery, but the half hearted lock downs and half hearted quaratine is not good enough

that's a tough debate.  Lock down or not.  Save lives or not.  No easy answers.  But it would be extremely easy for us here in Thailand to end up like Brazil or India.  Poor health care infrastructure that's been totally over run and falling apart. 

 

For me?  I was happy before this last wave as we could travel about with ease and really NO worry of getting the virus.  That all changed a few weeks ago.  The Thai government is doing a terrible job of managing this pandemic now.  Terrible.  With that being said, they've done better than many other countries!

 

Again, no easy answers.  IMHO.

[Tagged]

35 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

that's a tough debate.  Lock down or not.  Save lives or not.  No easy answers.  But it would be extremely easy for us here in Thailand to end up like Brazil or India.  Poor health care infrastructure that's been totally over run and falling apart. 

 

For me?  I was happy before this last wave as we could travel about with ease and really NO worry of getting the virus.  That all changed a few weeks ago.  The Thai government is doing a terrible job of managing this pandemic now.  Terrible.  With that being said, they've done better than many other countries!

 

Again, no easy answers.  IMHO.

Again, same you, very happy to been in thailand during covid, and still we can travel as much we want if we just do not get close to Chonburi, Bangkok, Prachuap, Chiang Mai. This last wave just made us cancel a roadtrip to Chiang Khong to the music festival, sad but acceptable. 

 

The reason they are not so trigger willing now, is because they know the vip´s and people from goverment will be accused of the last wave. ? 

 

As said I believe closed borders is better than islolating a whole country from each other inside the borders. For there is no sense accepting the risk of imported virus, especially now we have the english, brasillian, Indian, SA, and more to come in the future. 

 

And if need to travel, you will need to quarantine and it will need to be regulated and done in a proper way, and be fear to everyone as well. 

 

Truck drivers who cross the borders in to Norway,  do not even need to be tested. 100 truck drivers arrive Norway every day, and not being tested. Just one example. 

Edited April 19, 2021 by Tagged

[thaibeachlovers]

On 4/17/2021 at 9:48 PM, Nanaplaza666 said:

Maybe there aren't enough because before they didn't have the chance to get a job but since covid started there are a lot more oppertunities , and i think there are enough studying for this but where at home because of schools closed, so could have been trained and now ready to work ?? And about the medical branche , maybe my english is not so good because it's not my language but i think you know axactly what i mean and just trying to be a smart... . Maybe it's an idea for you to train for the ICU jobs . 

No. Western people don't want to be nurses like they did in the 1980s- IMO that's because of low pay, bullying and overwork/ stress. Doesn't help that they stopped in hospital training and made it a university course, which in my experience is not necessary- don't need a degree to do any normal nursing as I proved by not having a degree.

That's why Filipinos and apparently Indians are working in significant numbers in NZ hospitals. In the London hospital I worked in it was Filipinos and Africans- without them the hospital could not have coped.

I'd never have done the ICU course- not worth the stress of doing the course for the pay at the end of it. Nurses are not appreciated when it comes to pay rates.

 

Not being smart- I don't know what you mean by medical branche. Do you mean becoming a Dr? Why would a nurse want to do that?

[thaibeachlovers]

56 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

that's a tough debate.  Lock down or not.  Save lives or not.  No easy answers.  But it would be extremely easy for us here in Thailand to end up like Brazil or India.  Poor health care infrastructure that's been totally over run and falling apart. 

 

For me?  I was happy before this last wave as we could travel about with ease and really NO worry of getting the virus.  That all changed a few weeks ago.  The Thai government is doing a terrible job of managing this pandemic now.  Terrible.  With that being said, they've done better than many other countries!

 

Again, no easy answers.  IMHO.

If lockdowns worked California and New York would not have higher infection levels than Florida apparently has. Perhaps you have some explanation for that.

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, Kinnock said:

How long has malaria been around, and still no effective vaccine? And destroying the vector is comparatively simple of there was a global effort.

 

You cannot believe that the world is responding to other major causes of death in the same way it responded to COVID?

Does anyone believe that the west would have spent the money to develop the corona vaccines if the disease was confined mainly to Asia and Africa?

[thaibeachlovers]

1 hour ago, ozimoron said:

I believe that the world is responding appropriately to covid, except for extremist right wing governments who only respond to corporate donors who have a vested interest in keeping the economy open regardless of public health. Fortunately, some countries have proven that putting public health first benefits the economy most.

Please explain why California and New York are so badly affected when they went hard on lockdowns and other restrictions, compared to Florida, which apparently didn't.

[BritManToo]

4 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Not being smart- I don't know what you mean by medical branche. Do you mean becoming a Dr? Why would a nurse want to do that?

I agree,

3 years to train as a nurse, 7 years to train as a doctor.

Can't see COVID giving much opportunity for nurse/doctor employment, it's only been a year.

That poster seemed to think you could walk into any hospital with no qualifications and start working as a nurse.

Edited April 19, 2021 by BritManToo

[thaibeachlovers]

5 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

3 years to train as a nurse, 7 years to train as a doctor.

Can't see COVID giving much opportunity for nurse/doctor employment, it's only been a year.

Since they ended hospital training and went uni degree, it takes an extra year of actually working to be regarded as "trained". I could have got a nursing job in the UK the day after graduating from hospital training, but had I done the degree they wouldn't have taken me till I worked a year. There was a time in the 90s that new graduates couldn't get a job in an NZ hospital ( fully staffed ), which meant they either had to work in a rest home or see their qualification become valueless.

At that time the education facilities were training more nurses than could get a decent job after graduation. Now it's different as not enough people want to be a student for 3 years and have a large debt to pay back when the pay is not good as a new graduate nurse.

Edited April 19, 2021 by thaibeachlovers

[Jeffr2]

7 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Please explain why California and New York are so badly affected when they went hard on lockdowns and other restrictions, compared to Florida, which apparently didn't.

New York was hit hard because they were up first.  Scientists didn't really know what was going on initially, and there were NO lock downs, initially. 

 

Florida was hit hard later, and perhaps, the warmer weather helped?

 

As for California.  Many are ignoring the stay at home orders.  Just like what happened here.  People here let their guard down.

 

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-12-21/coronavirus-restrictions-not-bending-curve-california

California’s first coronavirus lockdown order, in the spring, produced benefits within a month. By April, Gov. Gavin Newsom was able to crow that the state had “arguably flattened” the curve on infections.

 

It has been two weeks since a second stay-at-home order was issued, and no such flattening has occurred across most of California. This may be because restrictions are looser than those in the spring, and because many Californians are so fatigued by public health orders — or militantly resistant to them — that they are mixing with people from outside their households.

 

But experts say the most pertinent explanation has to do with the amount of the coronavirus in the community. The latest order came after the virus was already raging out of control, in part because of Thanksgiving travel — a difference experts say will make the current surge much harder to corral.

[Jeffr2]

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2021/feb/26/instagram-posts/chart-comparing-new-york-and-florida-covid-19-flaw/

 

Due to differing lockdown orders, New York has more COVID-19 cases, deaths, hospitalizations and job losses than Florida, and New York also lags on vaccinations.

 

If Your Time is short

• We’ve seen plenty of posts comparing New York and Florida on their handling of the coronavirus that seem to make the case that Republicans in Florida are managing the pandemic better than Democrats in New York.

• But the comparisons are fraught for a number of reasons. The pandemic largely erupted in the United States in New York, before doctors had the equipment and therapeutics needed to fight the disease. Florida benefited from the lessons New York learned.

• The numbers in this particularly viral image need context and some lack accuracy.

[thaibeachlovers]

3 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

New York was hit hard because they were up first.  Scientists didn't really know what was going on initially, and there were NO lock downs, initially. 

 

Florida was hit hard later, and perhaps, the warmer weather helped?

 

As for California.  Many are ignoring the stay at home orders.  Just like what happened here.  People here let their guard down.

 

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-12-21/coronavirus-restrictions-not-bending-curve-california

California’s first coronavirus lockdown order, in the spring, produced benefits within a month. By April, Gov. Gavin Newsom was able to crow that the state had “arguably flattened” the curve on infections.

 

It has been two weeks since a second stay-at-home order was issued, and no such flattening has occurred across most of California. This may be because restrictions are looser than those in the spring, and because many Californians are so fatigued by public health orders — or militantly resistant to them — that they are mixing with people from outside their households.

 

But experts say the most pertinent explanation has to do with the amount of the coronavirus in the community. The latest order came after the virus was already raging out of control, in part because of Thanksgiving travel — a difference experts say will make the current surge much harder to corral.

Ah, if only people would do what they are told everything would be wonderful!

Not being China, lockdown after lockdown was probably never going to work. People don't like being ordered around, no matter the reason.

[Jeffr2]

6 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Ah, if only people would do what they are told everything would be wonderful!

Not being China, lockdown after lockdown was probably never going to work. People don't like being ordered around, no matter the reason.

I had this discussion with a friend in the US last week.  She couldn't figure out why cases were rising when every where she went, people had masks on.  I showed her this.  It's a pretty good explanation of why rates are rising even though people are wearing masks in public.  As we know, it takes more than just wearing a mask to defeat this enemy.

 

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/04/15/americas/chile-coronavirus-vaccination-cases-intl/index.html

 

Health authorities, experts and journalists consulted by CNN say the world can learn a lot from a multi-factor, "perfect storm" that hit Chile starting with Christmas gatherings and New Year's festivities, a sustained push to reopen all schools and shopping malls, an anticipated sense of safety given the rapid pace of vaccinations and less-than-desired levels of effectiveness of the Sinovac vaccine, which has been widely used in the country.

 

Francisco Álvarez, a public health expert and, until recently, the health department director in Valparaíso province, the second-most populated in Chile, says that relaxing Covid-19 restrictions around the end-of-year holidays started it all.

 

 

[Tagged]

27 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Please explain why California and New York are so badly affected when they went hard on lockdowns and other restrictions, compared to Florida, which apparently didn't.

Clima, vitamin D and K, ? Density of population? 

 

In florida they drive their own car, In New york taxi or the underground, the lock down itself was not effective and done as it should. 

 

We se in Norway where the new citizen, (poorer areas) who live in higher populated areas, have higher infection rates than in the neighbour districts.