Chauvin Guilty....

[Jingthing]

1 minute ago, ozimoron said:

 

That's correct. The bar was gross negligence, not intent.

Not limited to that either. Watch the final jury instructions for the three counts and that explains it.

[sqwakvfr]

Chauvin was guilty.  Guilty of Manslaughter.  But in the end this was the right outcome.

 

Here are some of my thoughts:  

 

1.  Militarization of the Police:  Former Officer Derek Chauvin(5 Ft 9 and 140lbs) was wearing a uniform, his service pistol, a Taser, handcuffs, radio, OC Spray(AKA Mace) and a baton.  Standard equipment for most patrol officers in the United States.  The military type of equipment is usually with SWAT Teams and Riot Control Units(of course they have been very busy in the past 12 months.  So this statement is not completely accurate.  

 

2.  The facts of the arrest of the late George Floyd are as follows.  Minneapolis Police were dispatched to the Cup Food Store in response to a Male Black who was attempting to pass a counterfeit $20 dollar bill.  This male black was George Floyd.  George Floyd was 6 Ft 6 and over 220 lbs).  Floyd was subsequently arrested but resisted.  He was handcuffed and placed in the back of a police vehicle.  He was then removed from the vehicle and then Chauvin chose  to pin him down on his neck for 9 minutes.  Chauvin(the most senior officer on scene with over 20 years on the job) was making the decisions.  I do  not like to speculate but if it was me I would have requested for a supervisor immediately after he was handcuffed.  Also, a paramedic unit should have been requested if Floyd was "delusional"(as Chauvin stated) or he was under the influence of a controlled substance.  The paramedics were not called until after Floyd stopped breathing(this was too late)..  

 

3. One of the most of difficult things about police work is this:  When, how and for how long to use force?  There is not a quantifiable answer.  But most departments tell officers this:  "That force which is necessary to effect arrest"?  What the heck does that mean".  In over 20 years of patrol in Los Angeles I never got a clear cut answer.  Where I used to work "every time you put your hands on someone you could be suspended, fired or indicted".  This was drilled into us at just about every roll call I attended.  In the "heat of the moment" it was difficult to constantly self assess have I used too much force"?  Especially if you are trying to handcuff someone who is bigger than you are and/or is under the influence of a controlled substance.  In my day I feared someone who was under the influence of PCP(Phencyclidine, AKA Horse Tranquilizer).  In one arrest I tore my labrum while attempting to handcuff a 15 year old who under the influence of PCP(this kid was  150lbs).  

 

In the end Chauvin was guilty of Manslaughter because the Prosecution did not prove Prior Intent(which is a key element of murder).  I expect a long prison sentence for Derek Chauvin.  

 

If I was 25 years old now I would not go into Police Work.  

[Jingthing]

4 minutes ago, sqwakvfr said:

Chauvin was guilty.  Guilty of Manslaughter.  But in the end this was the right outcome.

 

Here are some of my thoughts:  

 

1.  Militarization of the Police:  Former Officer Derek Chauvin(5 Ft 9 and 140lbs) was wearing a uniform, his service pistol, a Taser, handcuffs, radio, OC Spray(AKA Mace) and a baton.  Standard equipment for most patrol officers in the United States.  The military type of equipment is usually with SWAT Teams and Riot Control Units(of course they have been very busy in the past 12 months.  So this statement is not completely accurate.  

 

2.  The facts of the arrest of the late George Floyd are as follows.  Minneapolis Police were dispatched to the Cup Food Store in response to a Male Black who was attempting to pass a counterfeit $20 dollar bill.  This male black was George Floyd.  George Floyd was 6 Ft 6 and over 220 lbs).  Floyd was subsequently arrested but resisted.  He was handcuffed and placed in the back of a police vehicle.  He was then removed from the vehicle and then Chauvin chose  to pin him down on his neck for 9 minutes.  Chauvin(the most senior officer on scene with over 20 years on the job) was making the decisions.  I do  not like to speculate but if it was me I would have requested for a supervisor immediately after he was handcuffed.  Also, a paramedic unit should have been requested if Floyd was "delusional"(as Chauvin stated) or he was under the influence of a controlled substance.  The paramedics were not called until after Floyd stopped breathing(this was too late)..  

 

3. One of the most of difficult things about police work is this:  When, how and for how long to use force?  There is not a quantifiable answer.  But most departments tell officers this:  "That force which is necessary to effect arrest"?  What the heck does that mean".  In over 20 years of patrol in Los Angeles I never got a clear cut answer.  Where I used to work "every time you put your hands on someone you could be suspended, fired or indicted".  This was drilled into us at just about every roll call I attended.  In the "heat of the moment" it was difficult to constantly self assess have I used too much force"?  Especially if you are trying to handcuff someone who is bigger than you are and/or is under the influence of a controlled substance.  In my day I feared someone who was under the influence of PCP(Phencyclidine, AKA Horse Tranquilizer).  In one arrest I tore my labrum while attempting to handcuff a 15 year old who under the influence of PCP(this kid was  150lbs).  

 

In the end Chauvin was guilty of Manslaughter because the Prosecution did not prove Prior Intent(which is a key element of murder).  I expect a long prison sentence for Derek Chauvin.  

 

If I was 25 years old now I would not go into Police Work.  

You obviously didn't read the charges that he was convicted of. They went well beyond manslaughter.

[EVENKEEL]

4 hours ago, Boomer6969 said:

Hmmmhh, to smother a fire may not give the same "satisfaction" as smothering innocent black citizens.

Drama queen much.

[sqwakvfr]

Jingthing, the Chauvin jury and I differ.  Of course I know what verdicts the jury brought back.  My opinion is based upon my knowledge of the law and my professional experience.  

[Thomas J]

2 hours ago, Bruno123 said:

If you can give me a reason why he would feel the need to kneel on the neck of someone who is lying on his handcuffs and not resisting,

If you watch the entire body cam footage Mr. Floyd was not cooperating.  Now do I think Chauvin chose a bad way to attempt to restrain Mr. Floyd, yes,  Even if Mr. Floyd had not died, the image of a police officer kneeling on a handcuffed person is not one I am sure the police department would want to be circulated.  Do I think his actions killed Mr. Floyd.  I truly don't know.  The medical examiner indicated that Mr. Floyd had a lethal dose of Fetanyl in his system.  One of the symptoms of Fetanyl overdose is hypoxia where the person stops breathing.  The autopsy did not show that Mr. Floyd's throat had trauma which one would have expected if the knee was supplying sufficient pressure.  One way or another, the standard in the USA is suppose to be "reasonable doubt"  When you have a person suffering from heart disease, hypertension, foaming at the mouth  and with a lethal dose of  Fetanyl in his system and no evidence of a crushed trachea, I find that is "reasonable doubt"   The mistake that was made was showing the video to the medical examiner before he performed the autopsy.  If he then did not rule that Mr. Floyd was choked to death from pressure to his throat, then we would have a more unbiased medical examiners report. 

 

[Thomas J]

2 hours ago, Bruno123 said:

Why kneel on his neck for nearly ten minutes? Was he resisting arrest by lying on the ground? 

Police there need re-training; no doubt. 

 

The entire event took upwards of 10 minutes however if Chauvin was applying pressure for the entire period Mr. Floyd would not have been able to speak which he clearly was and he would have been dead from oxygen deprivation far sooner than 10 minutes which he was not. 

[Jingthing]

59 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

If you watch the entire body cam footage Mr. Floyd was not cooperating.  Now do I think Chauvin chose a bad way to attempt to restrain Mr. Floyd, yes,  Even if Mr. Floyd had not died, the image of a police officer kneeling on a handcuffed person is not one I am sure the police department would want to be circulated.  Do I think his actions killed Mr. Floyd.  I truly don't know.  The medical examiner indicated that Mr. Floyd had a lethal dose of Fetanyl in his system.  One of the symptoms of Fetanyl overdose is hypoxia where the person stops breathing.  The autopsy did not show that Mr. Floyd's throat had trauma which one would have expected if the knee was supplying sufficient pressure.  One way or another, the standard in the USA is suppose to be "reasonable doubt"  When you have a person suffering from heart disease, hypertension, foaming at the mouth  and with a lethal dose of  Fetanyl in his system and no evidence of a crushed trachea, I find that is "reasonable doubt"   The mistake that was made was showing the video to the medical examiner before he performed the autopsy.  If he then did not rule that Mr. Floyd was choked to death from pressure to his throat, then we would have a more unbiased medical examiners report. 

 

He did NOT have a lethal dose of Fentanol in him. 

[faraday]

27 minutes ago, Thomas J said:

 

The entire event took upwards of 10 minutes however if Chauvin was applying pressure for the entire period Mr. Floyd would not have been able to speak which he clearly was and he would have been dead from oxygen deprivation far sooner than 10 minutes which he was not. 

 

His O2 supply was being slowly reduced due to Chauvins knee. As this was happening, he was able to vocalise. 

 

As his Oxygen continued to become occluded, he became weaker.

 

 

Had his O2 been completely occluded, he would have lost consciousness sooner, & not vocalised.

 

 

[Jingthing]

He was murdered.

We all saw it.

Justice was done.

This time.

[gargamon]

Chauvin will ultimately get 30-40 years, all to be served in solitary confinement. Maybe 30 minutes a day in "the yard" getting a bit of exercise. Like Jeffrey Dahmer, it will take a few years before the general prison population will find a way to kill him...

[impulse]

Not to worry. 

 

The trial judge himself said that statements and behavior on the part of Maxine Waters will provide grounds for an appeal. 

 

This will drag on for years with plenty of opportunities to buy multi-million dollar homes with donations, burn stuff down,  and score big screen TVs.  In the name of justice, of course.

 

[bobbin]

2 hours ago, impulse said:

Not to worry. 

 

The trial judge himself said that statements and behavior on the part of Maxine Waters will provide grounds for an appeal. 

 

This will drag on for years with plenty of opportunities to buy multi-million dollar homes with donations, burn stuff down,  and score big screen TVs.  In the name of justice, of course.

 

All good until the final paragraph...where you revealed yourself to be be the racist you are..

[impulse]

14 minutes ago, bobbin said:

All good until the final paragraph...where you revealed yourself to be be the racist you are..

 

If it's racist to call people out for violence and theft in the name of justice, yup.  I'm a racist.   And in pretty good company.

[Jingthing]

6 hours ago, gargamon said:

Chauvin will ultimately get 30-40 years, all to be served in solitary confinement. Maybe 30 minutes a day in "the yard" getting a bit of exercise. Like Jeffrey Dahmer, it will take a few years before the general prison population will find a way to kill him...

I think more like 20 years. He will receive protection of course. 

[Jingthing]

7 hours ago, impulse said:

Not to worry. 

 

The trial judge himself said that statements and behavior on the part of Maxine Waters will provide grounds for an appeal. 

 

This will drag on for years with plenty of opportunities to buy multi-million dollar homes with donations, burn stuff down,  and score big screen TVs.  In the name of justice, of course.

 

The judge said that in the context of denying a mistrial.

Your Momma's funky blue rinse can potentially be grounds for an appeal.

Doesn't mean that any appeal will succeed.

He was convicted on all three counts with an incredibly strong case by the prosecution.

It will stand.

 

BTW, the overwhelming majority of.BLM related protests have been peaceful.

 

Nobody with any credibility is condoning violence from any faction.

[faraday]

Chauvin wearing his rightful clothes:

 

https://metro.co.uk/2021/04/21/first-picture-of-convicted-murderer-derek-chauvin-in-jail-jumpsuit-14449387/

 

 

[JohnOFphon]

16 hours ago, EVENKEEL said:

Wonder how many cops are going to shift over to being firemen? Less chance of going to prison for doing your job.

Or. If a cop sees a black person breaking the law....just walk away. 

 

[Jeffr2]

16 hours ago, Thomas J said:

Perhaps you should do some research before you shoot from the hip.  The technique used by Chauvin is one TAUGHT by the Minneapolis Police.  It is to be used when efforts to restrain the individual by more conventional means have proved futile.  Mr. Floyd beat his head against the police cruiser windows and was unruly while in the car.  

You may not agree with the knee restraint but it is within protocol. 

 

https://www.kare11.com/article/news/local/george-floyd/minneapolis-police-training-materials-show-knee-to-neck-restraint-similar-to-used-on-george-floyd/89-9f002e3f-972a-4410-86cb-50a1237fc496
 

Agreed!  And now that's under review by both the state's AG and the DOJ.  Reform will be coming shortly.  Hopefully, in many other states also.

 

https://www.npr.org/sections/trial-over-killing-of-george-floyd/2021/04/21/989446758/doj-to-investigate-minneapolis-police-for-possible-patterns-of-excessive-force

 

DOJ To Investigate Minneapolis Police Over Possible Patterns Of Excessive Force

 

 

[Jeffr2]

14 hours ago, Thomas J said:

 

 

It depends on "which expert" you are quoting. 

 

 

 

 

An expert witness for the defense.  Right.  What else would you have expected?  Luckily, the jury saw through this and convicted the cop. 

 

Chauvin's restraint killed a man.  Needlessly. 

[faraday]

Whatever ever way some of you want to spin this, Chauvin had a 'duty of care' to Floyd.

 

George Floyd died, due to Chauvins lack of care.

[Jeffr2]

7 hours ago, bobbin said:

All good until the final paragraph...where you revealed yourself to be be the racist you are..

He falls for conspiracy theories and is an ardent supporter of the far right.  We know how racist they are.  And now much they love to stir things up via conspiracy theories.

 

Racism is a huge problem in the US.  Just look at the Asians being attacked now due to the rhetoric coming from the far right.

 

Stunning anyone would support a cop like this.  He should have been fired years ago.

 

https://www.businessinsider.com.au/derek-chauvin-minneapolis-police-background-life-2020-6

 

Quote

 

18 complaints in 19 years, and a murder charge: What we know about ex-Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin

 

Chauvin’s record as a police officer in Minneapolis was littered with allegations of misconduct and excessive force. Eighteen complaints were filed against him over his 19-year career, according to CNN and Insider’s Haven Orecchio-Egresitz.

 

Only two of those complaints were closed with discipline. Though details of one remain unclear, a Minneapolis woman, Melissa Borton, told the Los Angeles Times she filed one of the complaints in August 2007 that ended with a formal letter of reprimand against Chauvin.

 

 

[Jeffr2]

A very good read.  Describes why the police are "above" the law.

 

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/12/876212065/an-immune-system?utm_source=npr_newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=20210421&utm_term=5331601&utm_campaign=politics&utm_id=40548360&orgid=&utm_att1=

 

 

Quote

 

Seemingly radical notions like defunding police departments or outright abolition of the police have gained momentum in no small part because police departments have proven, again and again, resistant to even the most modest reforms. Even smaller-bore efforts to remove so-called "bad apples" have often gone nowhere; police officers seldom lose their jobs for brutality and misconduct. They're also rarely arrested or indicted — let alone convicted — of wrongdoing in criminal cases.

 

It's also virtually impossible to get redress by suing a police officer in a civil case, thanks to a judicial doctrine called qualified immunity. Effectively, qualified immunity means that government officials like police officers can only be held accountable in civil court for violating a person's rights if those rights are "clearly established" in already-existing case law. (It's a little technical, we know.)

 

 

[Jeffr2]

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/08/872470076/the-fraternal-order-of-police-a-union-that-stands-in-the-way-of-police-reforms

 

The Fraternal Order Of Police: A Union That Stands In The Way Of Police Reforms

 

Activists have spent years pushing for changes in policing. And now the Minneapolis City Council says it plans to dismantle the police force and replace it with another public safety model. One big stakeholder in these debates around the country is the Fraternal Order of Police. Former prosecutor Paul Butler argues that it stands in the way of change. He's the author of "Chokehold: Policing Black Men" and is a law professor at Georgetown University.

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, sqwakvfr said:

If I was 25 years old now I would not go into Police Work.  

I suspect a great many young white men will be thinking that way now. It's bad enough not knowing if one would return home after work or be in a body bag, but now the powers that be apparently want to remove all immunity from police, so cops can expect to be sued for almost anything, it's becoming a job few will want to do, IMO.

[Jeffr2]

6 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I suspect a great many young white men will be thinking that way now. It's bad enough not knowing if one would return home after work or be in a body bag, but now the powers that be apparently want to remove all immunity from police, so cops can expect to be sued for almost anything, it's becoming a job few will want to do, IMO.

I've known quite a few cops.  The job definitely changes them over time.  It pays well, but a very tough job dealing with the miscreants of society.

 

No one is asking to remove all immunity from police.  Read the above links for some background on this.  Right now, they can literally do anything they want with no worry about repercussions.  That's not right.  And in the end, it allowed a cop like Chauvin to kill someone.  He should have been removed years ago.  Or at least had better training.

[ozimoron]

8 hours ago, impulse said:

 

If it's racist to call people out for violence and theft in the name of justice, yup.  I'm a racist.   And in pretty good company.

 

You quite clearly stated that the recipients of any compensation were essentially free loaders. A totally racist stereotype.

1 hour ago, JohnOFphon said:

Or. If a cop sees a black person breaking the law....just walk away. 

 

 

More racism.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts removed.   The topic is about the conviction of Chauvin.  Keep your personal political commentary out of it.  

 

[thaibeachlovers]

2 minutes ago, Jeffr2 said:

I've known quite a few cops.  The job definitely changes them over time.  It pays well, but a very tough job dealing with the miscreants of society.

Perhaps it doesn't pay well enough ( and I never heard that cops got paid well for what they do ) to make the cops of the future join up, given the chaos currently in progress re defunding and changes in immunity etc. I'll be following the recruitment levels with interest over the next few months.

To deal with hard criminals, hard cops are needed. Get rid of the hard cops and the bad men will have won.

I was going to join the cops, but after some guy walked into a police station and shot the cop on the counter to death I changed my mind . No amount of pay makes it worth being killed for doing a job.

[thaibeachlovers]

11 hours ago, Jingthing said:

He did NOT have a lethal dose of Fentanol in him. 

Perhaps for a person that never had corona. If his lungs were damaged by his infection, a lesser fentanyl dose may well have been enough.