If Thailand goes pear shaped

[Leaver]

On 5/12/2021 at 9:17 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

It's not, and IMO I can't see LOS ever being a destination for rich tourists. I hope not too, as I don't want even more ruination to suck up to people that think they are special.

I know it's not going to happen, but if I had a magic wand I'd use it to return Thailand to the early 1990s, which IMO was the golden age of tourism in LOS.

 

Sounds like you are blaming the tourists. 

 

In my opinion, those in charge of Thailand's tourism industry have a lot to answer for.  At no stage was sustainability ever considered, and when they targeted the Chinese, Indian and Russian package holiday market, it just decreased the value of Thailand as a brand.  

[Leaver]

On 5/12/2021 at 9:22 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

To be pedantic, only certain areas were "booming" with western tourists. It was possible to go to many wonderful places in which the only farang was myself. Happy days, those.

 

Did you see the word "expat" in my post?

 

Expats like to live where there are facilities that they enjoy.  Eg.  golf courses etc.  Also, to be in the company of friends, including their fellow countrymen. 

 

It was tourism to certain areas that funded the building of facilities, which then promoted the area to expats as a retirement destination.  

[mikebike]

On 5/5/2021 at 8:52 PM, Dmaxdan said:

Not if they don't offer vaccinations to everyone it won't. 

Without herd immunity we will just keep going around and around in never ending circles. 

Really? So please explain how pandemics ended prior to vaccinations.

 

I do not remember being worried about black plague as a kid....

 

Don't ignore history folks!!????????

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

Did you see the word "expat" in my post?

 

Expats like to live where there are facilities that they enjoy.  Eg.  golf courses etc.  Also, to be in the company of friends, including their fellow countrymen. 

 

It was tourism to certain areas that funded the building of facilities, which then promoted the area to expats as a retirement destination.  

I was an expat too, and I didn't use any of that farang oriented stuff ( though I did when I was a tourist, before living in LOS ). As for my fellow farangs, never had any great desire to associate with any. Had I wanted to I could have stayed at home where it's full of them.

Dunno about others but I didn't move to LOS to pretend it was a hotter version of home. I loved the difference.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

Sounds like you are blaming the tourists. 

 

In my opinion, those in charge of Thailand's tourism industry have a lot to answer for.  At no stage was sustainability ever considered, and when they targeted the Chinese, Indian and Russian package holiday market, it just decreased the value of Thailand as a brand.  

Sounds like you are blaming the tourists. 

Only the flashpackers. Without them the rush to concrete over every decent beach would not have happened.

 

The packpacker demographic never demanded AC, hot water, cable tv etc, and the rich people were such a minority that places to accommodate them never made much of a difference. In the 90s there were a few 5* resorts on Chaweng, but they didn't overwhelm the beach. It was only this century the horrid concrete resorts really took over, with the inevitable rise in prices.

[Leaver]

52 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I was an expat too, and I didn't use any of that farang oriented stuff ( though I did when I was a tourist, before living in LOS ).

 

I gather you meant to say, "I was a tourists too" at the start of this sentence.

 

One example is gyms.  O'm in Pattaya, and before covid, there was a selection a gyms. With covid, they are hanging in there, although Tony's is gone, but who knows about a few month's time.  Point being, the variety and choice of gyms doesn't exist on the expat clientele alone.  They rely on tourists as well. 

 

It's tourism here that allows me to enjoy the variety and choice of gyms, not to mention, the competition in pricing.    

 

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

As for my fellow farangs, never had any great desire to associate with any. Had I wanted to I could have stayed at home where it's full of them.

Dunno about others but I didn't move to LOS to pretend it was a hotter version of home. I loved the difference.

 

So, if you don't enjoy any facilities that cater for farang, and that includes bars (legit) and restaurant, and you don't associate with any farangs, including your fallow countrymen, where are living?  How often do you speak proper English, and to whom?  Do you still eat western food?  

 

I find it hard to believe you are living here with no western ways at all.  

[mikebike]

6 minutes ago, Leaver said:

 

I gather you meant to say, "I was a tourists too" at the start of this sentence.

 

One example is gyms.  O'm in Pattaya, and before covid, there was a selection a gyms. With covid, they are hanging in there, although Tony's is gone, but who knows about a few month's time.  Point being, the variety and choice of gyms doesn't exist on the expat clientele alone.  They rely on tourists as well. 

 

It's tourism here that allows me to enjoy the variety and choice of gyms, not to mention, the competition in pricing.    

 

 

So, if you don't enjoy any facilities that cater for farang, and that includes bars (legit) and restaurant, and you don't associate with any farangs, including your fallow countrymen, where are living?  How often do you speak proper English, and to whom?  Do you still eat western food?  

 

I find it hard to believe you are living here with no western ways at all.  

He didnt say any of what you typed... where are you getting that drek?

[Leaver]

2 minutes ago, mikebike said:

He didnt say any of what you typed... where are you getting that drek?

 

Is English your first language?

 

He said:  "I didn't use any of that farang oriented stuff"    Example I gave was a gym. (farang orientated stuff)

 

He said:   "As for my fellow farangs, never had any great desire to associate with any."  Hence, I asked who he speaks proper English to.

 

 

[Leaver]

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Only the flashpackers. Without them the rush to concrete over every decent beach would not have happened.

 

Who allowed the concreting to happen?  

 

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

The packpacker demographic never demanded AC, hot water, cable tv etc,

 

Not much money in them though, is there?

 

1 hour ago, thaibeachlovers said:

In the 90s there were a few 5* resorts on Chaweng, but they didn't overwhelm the beach. It was only this century the horrid concrete resorts really took over, with the inevitable rise in prices.

 

Once again, who do you blame for this?  

 

The Thai's exploited the very nature that attracted tourists in the first place.  There was no thought towards sustainability, and when they saw middle class westerners and families in decline here, what did they do, they opened up the place to mass package holiday tourism to trash the environment even more.   

 

Basically, anything to keep the money coming in, with no thought for Thailand's tourism industry 20 years from now.   

[thaibeachlovers]

On 5/14/2021 at 11:28 PM, Leaver said:

 

I gather you meant to say, "I was a tourists too" at the start of this sentence.

 

One example is gyms.  O'm in Pattaya, and before covid, there was a selection a gyms. With covid, they are hanging in there, although Tony's is gone, but who knows about a few month's time.  Point being, the variety and choice of gyms doesn't exist on the expat clientele alone.  They rely on tourists as well. 

 

It's tourism here that allows me to enjoy the variety and choice of gyms, not to mention, the competition in pricing.    

 

 

So, if you don't enjoy any facilities that cater for farang, and that includes bars (legit) and restaurant, and you don't associate with any farangs, including your fallow countrymen, where are living?  How often do you speak proper English, and to whom?  Do you still eat western food?  

 

I find it hard to believe you are living here with no western ways at all.  

Tourists don't live in LOS on non O visas. I was an expat.

Never used a gym since leaving school; they could all vanish tomorrow and I'd not care a jot. Hard physical work keeps one fit and no need to pay a gym.

After I moved to Thailand to get married and live, I never used bars any more ( I did when I was a tourist ), I ate at restaurants that catered to Thais for the most part and could have done quite nicely without the farang/ tourist restaurants.

 

I did live in Pattaya for a while after getting married, but other than MacDonalds etc ( which cater as much to Thais as tourists ) I ate at home.

 

After Pattaya I lived in the village where I was the only farang, and in Lamphun, where I was almost the only farang. Zero where I lived. After getting divorced, I moved to Chiang Mai, but my lifestyle or  habits didn't change much, except I went to the mall to see movies. I still didn't go to gyms, bars or eat in western restaurants ( other than MacDonalds etc. )

 

How often do you speak proper English, and to whom?

LOL. Do you consider that important? I don't.

 

Do you still eat western food?  

Seriously? Can buy sausages and baked beans pretty much anywhere in LOS. Do you mean did I eat farang specific food, whatever that may be, and no, I didn't.

 

To be clear, I didn't move to LOS to live as though I was still back home. Had I wanted to I'd have stayed there.

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

On 5/14/2021 at 11:41 PM, Leaver said:

 

Is English your first language?

 

He said:  "I didn't use any of that farang oriented stuff"    Example I gave was a gym. (farang orientated stuff)

 

He said:   "As for my fellow farangs, never had any great desire to associate with any."  Hence, I asked who he speaks proper English to.

 

 

Other than gyms, foot massage places and farang bars I can't think of anything that is specific to farangs that I could have used. Everything else I saw was as much used by Thais as farangs.

 

I think you over rate speaking English. I've always been more into doing than talking about things.

[thaibeachlovers]

On 5/14/2021 at 11:52 PM, Leaver said:

 

Who allowed the concreting to happen?  

 

 

Not much money in them though, is there?

 

 

Once again, who do you blame for this?  

 

The Thai's exploited the very nature that attracted tourists in the first place.  There was no thought towards sustainability, and when they saw middle class westerners and families in decline here, what did they do, they opened up the place to mass package holiday tourism to trash the environment even more.   

 

Basically, anything to keep the money coming in, with no thought for Thailand's tourism industry 20 years from now.   

Who allowed the concreting to happen?  

Greedy Thais, but if there wasn't a demand they wouldn't have done it.

 

Not much money in them though, is there?

So what. Thais lived off the backpackers for a very long time, and backpackers are not as a rule penniless. They spent money on food, drink, clothes and souvenirs, not counting all the tours they went on.

 

Once again, who do you blame for this?  

Greedy Thais. I never claimed that they were perfect.

 

The Thai's exploited the very nature that attracted tourists in the first place.  There was no thought towards sustainability, and when they saw middle class westerners and families in decline here, what did they do, they opened up the place to mass package holiday tourism to trash the environment even more.   

 

Basically, anything to keep the money coming in, with no thought for Thailand's tourism industry 20 years from now.   

Agree 100%

[thaibeachlovers]

On 5/14/2021 at 7:39 PM, Leaver said:

 

Sounds like you are blaming the tourists. 

 

In my opinion, those in charge of Thailand's tourism industry have a lot to answer for.  At no stage was sustainability ever considered, and when they targeted the Chinese, Indian and Russian package holiday market, it just decreased the value of Thailand as a brand.  

Seems we were not too far apart anyway.
 I do blame the tourists that only want flash accommodation with swimming pools etc for not caring about the environment, but I also blame the Thais for destroying the environment to get rich.

[Leaver]

On 5/17/2021 at 8:03 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Tourists don't live in LOS on non O visas. I was an expat.

 

Once again, both enjoy the same facilities, but many of the facilities can't survive on expat numbers alone.

 

On 5/17/2021 at 8:03 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Never used a gym since leaving school; they could all vanish tomorrow and I'd not care a jot.

 

It was one example.  

 

I am speaking in general, not about just one individual.  

 

Do you think living in a village is representative of the majority of farang here?

 

On 5/17/2021 at 8:03 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

After Pattaya I lived in the village where I was the only farang, and in Lamphun, where I was almost the only farang. Zero where I lived.

 

Do you think my posts was aimed at expats living in villages?   There's no golf courses or gyms catering for farang in the villages, are there, and why is that?

 

On 5/17/2021 at 8:03 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

After getting divorced, I moved to Chiang Mai, but my lifestyle or  habits didn't change much, except I went to the mall to see movies.

 

Were they western movies?

 

On 5/17/2021 at 8:03 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

I didn't move to LOS to live as though I was still back home. Had I wanted to I'd have stayed there.

 

Simply saying, you can have the best of both worlds here, but it's western tourism that allows that to be.  As western tourists decline, so will the facilities that cater for them, and that means expats lose use of the facilities as well.    

Edited May 21, 2021 by Leaver

[Leaver]

On 5/17/2021 at 8:10 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Other than gyms, foot massage places and farang bars I can't think of anything that is specific to farangs that I could have used. Everything else I saw was as much used by Thais as farangs.

 

Let me know when you see a Thai eating a Sunday roast.  ????

[Leaver]

On 5/17/2021 at 8:17 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Greedy Thais, but if there wasn't a demand they wouldn't have done it.

 

Who allowed the greedy Thai's to do it?  Obviously, even more greedier Thai's in government.  What hope did Thailand's nature have, zero.  

 

On 5/17/2021 at 8:17 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

So what. Thais lived off the backpackers for a very long time, and backpackers are not as a rule penniless. They spent money on food, drink, clothes and souvenirs, not counting all the tours they went on.

 

They worked out a 2 week millionaire would spend lore in 2 weeks than a backpacker would spend in 3 months, so changed their focus, and the rest is history.

 

 

[Leaver]

On 5/17/2021 at 8:21 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Seems we were not too far apart anyway.
 I do blame the tourists that only want flash accommodation with swimming pools etc for not caring about the environment, but I also blame the Thais for destroying the environment to get rich.

 

Money Number One here.  

 

As I said, the Thai's will destroy the very things that attracted tourists here in the first place, the beaches and ocean water.  Once they are destroyed, what reason is there for tourists to come here, other than the massive sex trade, but I am talking about tourists, not specifically sex tourists.

 

They will not be coming for 200 baht T-Shirts, as the same can be bought in other neighbouring countries for cheaper.  Same with beer and meals.  

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, Leaver said:

Were they western movies?

 

On 5/17/2021 at 1:03 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

I didn't move to LOS to live as though I was still back home. Had I wanted to I'd have stayed there.

 

Simply saying, you can have the best of both worlds here, but it's western tourism that allows that to be.  As western tourists decline, so will the facilities that cater for them, and that means expats lose use of the facilities as well.    

Edited 2 hours ago by Leaver

I love going to the movies, whatever country of origin. I saw Thai, Japanese, Chinese and Korean  movies as well as western, and let's remember that the audience is mainly Thai so they are put on for them, not the odd expat.

My favourite movies are not even western- they are Japanese.

 

I've obviously failed to put over my point of view so you can understand it, so to be clear, I am not responsible for anything to do with other expats or western tourists, and if everything to do with western oriented activities ( golf courses, gyms etc ) had vanished overnight it would have made zero difference to me wanting to live in LOS. I lived in LOS because I loved it there, not because of the availability of golf courses or gyms etc ( which I never used anyway ).

As I said before, everything I did use was for the benefit of Thais, so they would have been there anyway.

I traveled on Thai transport ( trains, buses taxis, songtheaws etc ) used by Thais. I never went on the Orient Express or the tourist only buses. I never stayed at expensive places Thais wouldn't stay at. I ate mainly in restaurants that also had Thai customers. Get the picture?

In fact, I didn't even have farang friends, and never went to a bar to hang out with farangs.

I don't know how more clear I can be, but I was not interested in living a western lifestyle.

 

Simply saying, you can have the best of both worlds here, but it's western tourism that allows that to be. 

Perhaps back in the 70s, but the facilities I used were also popular with locals, so not dependent on foreign tourists. Even MacDonalds would exist in LOS if not a single tourist ate in one of their restaurants, as they cater mainly to Thais.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

Let me know when you see a Thai eating a Sunday roast.  ????

I missed that one before. I never ate a roast in LOS. Waaaaay too expensive.

Usually ate chicken.

[thaibeachlovers]

2 hours ago, Leaver said:

 

Money Number One here.  

 

As I said, the Thai's will destroy the very things that attracted tourists here in the first place, the beaches and ocean water.  Once they are destroyed, what reason is there for tourists to come here, other than the massive sex trade, but I am talking about tourists, not specifically sex tourists.

 

They will not be coming for 200 baht T-Shirts, as the same can be bought in other neighbouring countries for cheaper.  Same with beer and meals.  

I think package tourists don't care where they go, as long as they can brag to their friends about it. They seem to spend most of their time lying by the hotel swimming pool getting inebriated, or going on tours that take them to the fake Thailand for tourist shows.

Long ago I went to Bkk to see the huge Songkran parade, which lasted hours and ended at Sanam Luang. I didn't see any western tourists at the parade and after it was over I went to Khao San Road , which was full of western tourists buying overpriced junk souvenirs and supping beers in the restaurants telling each other about all the exotic places they had been to, ie, which exotic places they'd drunk beer at.

 

I've walked all over Bkk ( even Klong Toey ) and many other places in LOS, but what I rarely if ever saw on my travels were western tourists.

[Damrongsak]

On 5/7/2021 at 11:45 PM, EVENKEEL said:

Yep, the USA is best at most things, including making fat people.

Good home cooking.  This gal was trying for a world record.  For a time, she was eating over 20,000 calories a day.  Sometimes 30,000.  Here's breakfast.

 

[itsari]

On 5/7/2021 at 1:49 PM, thaibeachlovers said:

You reckon the internet will still function if the country goes "pear shaped", or that anyone will want to deliver to you in your remote location?

If Thailand goes pear shaped I am quite sure the internet will continue . Business depends on the internet to function . Delivery in a remote area will probably be available too . 

[BritManToo]

23 hours ago, Leaver said:

Simply saying, you can have the best of both worlds here, but it's western tourism that allows that to be.  As western tourists decline, so will the facilities that cater for them, and that means expats lose use of the facilities as well.    

I agree with TBL, but for different reasons.

I live a completely western lifestyle, but have nothing to do with foreigners or facilities catering to foreigners.

And the only thing I need to live my western lifestyle is a fast internet connection.

It's actually nicer living here without all the foreigners as my only major irritation was Immigration, which is really easy now they are so overstaffed.

Edited May 22, 2021 by BritManToo

[BritManToo]

21 hours ago, thaibeachlovers said:

I missed that one before. I never ate a roast in LOS. Waaaaay too expensive.

Usually ate chicken.

Roast chicken and roast pork are very easy to cook yourself and don't cost much.

[EVENKEEL]

5 hours ago, Damrongsak said:

Good home cooking.  This gal was trying for a world record.  For a time, she was eating over 20,000 calories a day.  Sometimes 30,000.  Here's breakfast.

 

Is that a "proper" english breakfast??

[Leaver]

8 hours ago, BritManToo said:

I agree with TBL, but for different reasons.

I live a completely western lifestyle, but have nothing to do with foreigners or facilities catering to foreigners.

And the only thing I need to live my western lifestyle is a fast internet connection.

It's actually nicer living here without all the foreigners as my only major irritation was Immigration, which is really easy now they are so overstaffed.

 

Interesting reply BMT.

 

I was never comparing living in Thailand to living in a village, so I never saw the fast internet as a facility that caters to westerners, because Thai's use fast internet as well. 

 

I know Thai's also play golf, which was another example I gave, but given several golf courses are around the main tourist areas of Thailand, golfing is popular with western tourists, and expats, the tourists areas having the demand for golf. 

 

What do you mean you live a completely western lifestyle but have nothing to do with facilities catering for foreigners?  Do you ever go for a Sunday roast, for example?  Do you buy western food ingredients? 

 

A simple one is clothing.  Foreigners need bigger sizes. 

 

When I look at a place like Sihanoukville in Cambodia, it went from catering to westerners to only catering for Chinese gamblers.  There's only a handful of westerners there now, and not much facilities to cater for them anymore.     

[rott]

On 5/17/2021 at 8:03 AM, thaibeachlovers said:

Tourists don't live in LOS on non O visas. I was an expat.

Never used a gym since leaving school; they could all vanish tomorrow and I'd not care a jot. Hard physical work keeps one fit and no need to pay a gym.

After I moved to Thailand to get married and live, I never used bars any more ( I did when I was a tourist ), I ate at restaurants that catered to Thais for the most part and could have done quite nicely without the farang/ tourist restaurants.

 

I did live in Pattaya for a while after getting married, but other than MacDonalds etc ( which cater as much to Thais as tourists ) I ate at home.

 

After Pattaya I lived in the village where I was the only farang, and in Lamphun, where I was almost the only farang. Zero where I lived. After getting divorced, I moved to Chiang Mai, but my lifestyle or  habits didn't change much, except I went to the mall to see movies. I still didn't go to gyms, bars or eat in western restaurants ( other than MacDonalds etc. )

 

How often do you speak proper English, and to whom?

LOL. Do you consider that important? I don't.

 

Do you still eat western food?  

Seriously? Can buy sausages and baked beans pretty much anywhere in LOS. Do you mean did I eat farang specific food, whatever that may be, and no, I didn't.

 

To be clear, I didn't move to LOS to live as though I was still back home. Had I wanted to I'd have stayed there.

 

 

But in a recent post you said you spent a great deal of your Pattaya time in bars, then when you went to Chang Mai the bars were so boring you couldn't be bothered with them. 

 

I also remember some years ago you made a a great deal of noise about how sorry you were to be leaving Pattaya. You did not mention you were only going to Chang Mai. 

[BritManToo]

17 minutes ago, Leaver said:

What do you mean you live a completely western lifestyle but have nothing to do with facilities catering for foreigners?  Do you ever go for a Sunday roast, for example?  Do you buy western food ingredients? 

 

A simple one is clothing.  Foreigners need bigger sizes. 

I use my local swimming pool, when it's open, only ever Thais.

I go with my woman and kids, we all speak English.

Sunday (pork or chicken) roast I cook myself, the large western sized oven was around 2,500bht, I make my own biscuits, cakes, roasts, pies, pasties, pizza, cheesecake, toffee when the urge takes me.

I rarely buy western ingredients (but did get 2 years worth of tea and HP sauce today from Lazada), although most Thai ingredients can make western ingredients, mince pie filling was easy enough to make with cheap items from my local YoK bakery supply store. Frozen bacon is easily available in Makro, along with pizza cheese, Mainland Cheddar. I make my own raspberry jam using frozen raspberries from Makro, very cheap to do.

 

What sort of western ingredients do you think Thais don't use?

 

Clothing at 6ft, 78Kg and size 12 shoes, I fit most Thai XL or XXL clothing, Decathlon sells my size of running shoes. It's never really been a problem, most market stalls sell jeans and Liverpool football shirts I can fit into.

 

Today's delivery, just in case come essentials get scarce.

Lunch earlier was a baked potato covered in chilli, with a couple of wine coolers.

Dinner tonight will be Roast pork steak with chips and HP sauce.

Time for a mug of Typhoo!

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by BritManToo

[Leaver]

9 minutes ago, BritManToo said:

What sort of western ingredients do you think Thais don't use?

 

Well, I do like my cheese and red wine.  

 

I don't see a lot of Thai's eating cheese, and the tax makes wine too expensive for the Thai's.   

[BritManToo]

Just now, Leaver said:

Well, I do like my cheese and red wine.  

I don't see a lot of Thai's eating cheese, and the tax makes wine too expensive for the Thai's.   

I've always put sugar in my wine, so here Full Moon Dark wine coolers are ideal at 28bht/bottle (7.5% alc).

In the UK I only ever ate cheddar, Mainland Tasty at Makro costing 345bht/500gm is ideal.