I recently read a post from an esteemed member (no name , pack-drill nor disrespect

for the member) who stated he/she was waiting for the return of the Christ.

Now I would freely admit that I am not the sharpest knife in any body's drawer but

it puzzles me how supposedly smart people can hold such convictions.

Limited as I may be I have read enough to suggest to me that planet Earth might

measure it's age in billions of years rather than thousands and the extent of the

known universe is like WOW.

Please , how do you "believers" relate to this ?

Is scientific opinion totally wrong ?

Is your "God" really just a local administration official ?

Will I go to hel_l for posting this ?

PS

I have consciously excluded Buddhists from the issue because they can skirt

around any issue.

I believe in God because i am God..

We're all pre-programmed to believe, what you believe and how strongly depends on your peer group during your formative years.

For instance I believe it's ok to drop acid, get naked and paint your body with psychedelic colours and dance around a field to Jethro Tull in front of 50,000 people, unfortunately for me Jethro Tull are no longer playing, but I live in the hope that they will return one day.

We're all pre-programmed to believe, what you believe and how strongly depends on your peer group during your formative years.

For instance I believe it's ok to drop acid, get naked and paint your body with psychedelic colours and dance around a field to Jethro Tull in front of 50,000 people, unfortunately for me Jethro Tull are no longer playing, but I live in the hope that they will return one day.

Jeez you had SO much more fun than I did as a kid.

:Extremelyenvioussmiley

Here is a very brave (ex) Muslim woman - Wafa Sultan - who adds highly-combustible fuel to religious debate against her fundamentalist Middle Eastern male counterparts:-

Check the web: memritv.org

Clip#1050 - Arab-American Psychiatrist Wafa Sultan: There is No Clash of Civilizations but a Clash between the Mentality of the Middle Ages and That of the 21st Century

What a magnificent woman.. I am in ..

I love when she gets called a heretic, it just shows the fool for what he (they) are.. barbarians.

Wafa Sultan for prime minister / president..

What a magnificent woman.. I am in ..

I love when she gets called a heretic, it just shows the fool for what he (they) are.. barbarians.

Wafa Sultan for prime minister / president..

.... of the planet?! Totally agree, she rocks!!!!

I've got a book by her, I can't remember the title, very, very interesting perspective. If only the men would listen to her, I thought there would be a major backlash against her, but no. For Muslim men to condemn her as they did with Salman Rushdie would only highlight her opinion I guess.

I've got a book by her, I can't remember the title, very, very interesting perspective. If only the men would listen to her, I thought there would be a major backlash against her, but no. For Muslim men to condemn her as they did with Salman Rushdie would only highlight her opinion I guess.

Please remember the book name Robski!!! Also, there is another book titled "Infidel" by another (ex) Muslim (N.African) woman now an MP in Holland (I think!) - with quite a similar message... wonderful that these women are speaking out and the world is listening.

Here is a very brave (ex) Muslim woman - Wafa Sultan - who adds highly-combustible fuel to religious debate against her fundamentalist Middle Eastern male counterparts:-

Check the web: memritv.org

Clip#1050 - Arab-American Psychiatrist Wafa Sultan: There is No Clash of Civilizations but a Clash between the Mentality of the Middle Ages and That of the 21st Century

Excellent clip/Article. She is a highly enlightened woman. I hope she does become President of the Universe!

Respect to The Sultan

Do we really need another thread dedicated to the Donz?

Where is he btw?

Here is a very brave (ex) Muslim woman - Wafa Sultan - who adds highly-combustible fuel to religious debate against her fundamentalist Middle Eastern male counterparts:-

Check the web: memritv.org

Clip#1050 - Arab-American Psychiatrist Wafa Sultan: There is No Clash of Civilizations but a Clash between the Mentality of the Middle Ages and That of the 21st Century

Excellent citation Khall and prompts the phrase "the only brave Muslim is an ex Muslim"

(death by suitably horrible means for apostasy and all that <deleted>) but doesn't answer the

question of why so many believers of "other books" think the way they do.

Here is a very brave (ex) Muslim woman - Wafa Sultan - who adds highly-combustible fuel to religious debate against her fundamentalist Middle Eastern male counterparts:-

Check the web: memritv.org

Clip#1050 - Arab-American Psychiatrist Wafa Sultan: There is No Clash of Civilizations but a Clash between the Mentality of the Middle Ages and That of the 21st Century

Excellent citation Khall and prompts the phrase "the only brave Muslim is an ex Muslim"

(death by suitably horrible means for apostasy and all that <deleted>) but doesn't answer the

question of why so many believers of "other books" think the way they do.

In reply to your OP, farangsay:

Please , how do you "believers" relate to this ?

Is scientific opinion totally wrong ?

Is your "God" really just a local administration official ?

Will I go to hel_l for posting this ?

PS

I have consciously excluded Buddhists from the issue because they can skirt

around any issue.

... there is now a strong movement to suggest that representatives from the "outer" universe are on their way to "save the day" and blow all earthly religious arguments out of the water!!!!

What do you have to say about that theory?????

Here is a very brave (ex) Muslim woman - Wafa Sultan - who adds highly-combustible fuel to religious debate against her fundamentalist Middle Eastern male counterparts:-

Check the web: memritv.org

Clip#1050 - Arab-American Psychiatrist Wafa Sultan: There is No Clash of Civilizations but a Clash between the Mentality of the Middle Ages and That of the 21st Century

Excellent citation Khall and prompts the phrase "the only brave Muslim is an ex Muslim"

(death by suitably horrible means for apostasy and all that <deleted>) but doesn't answer the

question of why so many believers of "other books" think the way they do.

In reply to your OP, farangsay:

Please , how do you "believers" relate to this ?

Is scientific opinion totally wrong ?

Is your "God" really just a local administration official ?

Will I go to hel_l for posting this ?

PS

I have consciously excluded Buddhists from the issue because they can skirt

around any issue.

... there is now a strong movement to suggest that representatives from the "outer" universe are on their way to "save the day" and blow all earthly religious arguments out of the water!!!!

What do you have to say about that theory?????

Well if you're taller than Tom Cruise (not hard to do) and shorter than John Travolta (ditto)

I'd just stay schtumm and poke you in the eye.

I had to phone home to see what the book was and it wasn't Wafa Sultan at all, sorry about that, but....

The book is called 'The Trouble With Islam (a wake up call for honesty and change)' by Irshad Manji.

She is a muslim. It's a very insightful read about the machinations of the male dominated muslim world.

I'll have a good look at the website for Wafa Sultan now, thanks.

I recently read a post from an esteemed member (no name , pack-drill nor disrespect

for the member) who stated he/she was waiting for the return of the Christ.

Now I would freely admit that I am not the sharpest knife in any body's drawer but

it puzzles me how supposedly smart people can hold such convictions.

Limited as I may be I have read enough to suggest to me that planet Earth might

measure it's age in billions of years rather than thousands and the extent of the

known universe is like WOW.

Please , how do you "believers" relate to this ?

Is scientific opinion totally wrong ?

Is your "God" really just a local administration official ?

Will I go to hel_l for posting this ?

PS

I have consciously excluded Buddhists from the issue because they can skirt

around any issue.

Interesting post. Unless there's another poster who believes and stated that they believe in the literal return of Jesus, it is me you are refering to. So to deal with the points in turn.

Plenty of 'smart' people believe in the return of Jesus. Fortunately 'smartness' isn't a prerequisite or I'd be excluded! Our position is usually based on faith and an understanding of the biblical message.

It is surely irrelevant what age the earth is or if the ages in scripture are literal or figurative. Ask yourself the question, if all Chrstians (and some do) believed in an earth billions of years old, would you then believe in the literal return of Jesus? So surely that's not the point. What most Christians (and not all) believe in is a six day creation. I also assure you that many smart people do believe in a six day creation. I have a book called 'In six days, why 50 scientists believe in a six day creation'. I'm not saying I agreed with all of their analysis, however, it shows that not all scientists believe in evolution.

Also your statement "Is scientific opinion totally wrong ?" is flawed. It should be pointed out that there are many scientific opinions. See above.

You ask "Will I go to hel_l for posting this ?" Again, I will share my personal understanding of hel_l. In scripture hel_l is the grave where we all go at death. It takes study to come to this understanding, start at the OT and work forward, the Hebrew word means the grave. So, to answer the question, we all go to hel_l!

I recently read a post from an esteemed member (no name , pack-drill nor disrespect

for the member) who stated he/she was waiting for the return of the Christ.

Now I would freely admit that I am not the sharpest knife in any body's drawer but

it puzzles me how supposedly smart people can hold such convictions.

Limited as I may be I have read enough to suggest to me that planet Earth might

measure it's age in billions of years rather than thousands and the extent of the

known universe is like WOW.

Please , how do you "believers" relate to this ?

Is scientific opinion totally wrong ?

Is your "God" really just a local administration official ?

Will I go to hel_l for posting this ?

PS

I have consciously excluded Buddhists from the issue because they can skirt

around any issue.

Interesting post. Unless there's another poster who believes and stated that they believe in the literal return of Jesus, it is me you are refering to. So to deal with the points in turn.

Plenty of 'smart' people believe in the return of Jesus. Fortunately 'smartness' isn't a prerequisite or I'd be excluded! Our position is usually based on faith and an understanding of the biblical message.

It is surely irrelevant what age the earth is or if the ages in scripture are literal or figurative. Ask yourself the question, if all Chrstians (and some do) believed in an earth billions of years old, would you then believe in the literal return of Jesus? So surely that's not the point. What most Christians (and not all) believe in is a six day creation. I also assure you that many smart people do believe in a six day creation. I have a book called 'In six days, why 50 scientists believe in a six day creation'. I'm not saying I agreed with all of their analysis, however, it shows that not all scientists believe in evolution.

Also your statement "Is scientific opinion totally wrong ?" is flawed. It should be pointed out that there are many scientific opinions. See above.

You ask "Will I go to hel_l for posting this ?" Again, I will share my personal understanding of hel_l. In scripture hel_l is the grave where we all go at death. It takes study to come to this understanding, start at the OT and work forward, the Hebrew word means the grave. So, to answer the question, we all go to hel_l!

Well thank you Suegha for rescuing this thread from the the deviant path it could have adopted.

I have issues with the "faiths" people profess (and some hold dearly).

They are all Earth/people centric and seem to make no attempt to relate to the known universe

(which is mind numbingly vast). This is why I asked whether the "God" people envisage could

really be a minor local official entrusted with the administration of our backwater galaxy.

I think the time line IS relevant. I read that the Earth is 4,500,000,000 years old. I write the

number in that pedantic fashion for a reason. Humanity's earliest ancestors have been dated

at 6,000,000 years BPE. Traces of the earliest Homo Sapiens are dated at 195,000 years BPE.

All the current Gods and prophets are slightly more recent. What took them so long.

Or is it "If God didn't exist , we'd have to invent him...?'"

I obviously fail totally to understand the notion of a "six day creation". I would be interested

to hear how that theory explains itself.

As I understand it , and you as an erudite person can clarify , Christ returns to Earth at the

"end of the world". At some point the star we call Sun will go kaboom and our solar system

with it. This will have little effect on the rest of the universe. In that context does the return

of Christ smack more of a minor functionary dotting i's and crossing t's than a "God".

I only believe in Crackerjacks, because I know everytime I buy a box, I'm gonna get crackerjacks and I'm gonna get a prize. Everything else is speculation. I like speculation, too, but everybody has their own take on specs.

And I know when my dogs, great aunty and best-friend uncle (all passed, bless them) come to visit and tell me things in my dreams that there is a place for me with them when I too pass.

I'm content. I have guardian angels and I believe in higher powers. I just don't have a name or label for them.

I also know I'm here for a purpose, but it still escapes me what exactly that f** purpose is. That's why I'm sending a donation to NR's dog centre.

Human life is an interpretation of "life as we know it"... whose book are we reading here? Nostradamus predicts the world will end soon: "the end of the world as WE KNOW IT!"

Time will tell....

At some point the star we call Sun will go kaboom and our solar system

with it. This will have little effect on the rest of the universe.

True, but the Earth will not be inhabitable a very long time before that happens (not our fault btw, the sun is expanding and getting hotter all the time, we will need to move to Mars at some point, I wonder if George has registered marsvisa.com yet)

Like Jet, I do believe in a higher purpose, I just haven't figured it out yet and there are too many flaws in what I was taught as a youngster to ring true.

I can only say one thing with certainty, I will not think any less of nor want to persecute any person who may think they have found the answer.

Over the years, I have sadly attended countless autopsies and have thus spoken to many folk of many different creeds who carry out this task. One thing they and I have always agreed on is whatever it is that constituted life has long gone from the room before the boys/girls get on with their duty. The soul, spark, call it what you will, that was present and lit up the room when that person entered has gone somewhere. Now I do not know where and can not say i follow any belief system that has tried to label the eventual destination. All I know for sure is that many people that do that fascinating job have been able to push any form of grief aside by the simple fact that what was there is no longer and death holds little fear for them.

Over the years, I have sadly attended countless autopsies and have thus spoken to many folk of many different creeds who carry out this task. One thing they and I have always agreed on is whatever it is that constituted life has long gone from the room before the boys/girls get on with their duty. The soul, spark, call it what you will, that was present and lit up the room when that person entered has gone somewhere. Now I do not know where and can not say i follow any belief system that has tried to label the eventual destination. All I know for sure is that many people that do that fascinating job have been able to push any form of grief aside by the simple fact that what was there is no longer and death holds little fear for them.

Beg to differ, Limpy. "They" tell me everyone waits for their respective bodies to be consecrated before they go on to the next place. They are no longer in that body, but the spirit hovers until the job is done. Death bothers me not; dealt with it alot. But I always hold respect for what that body and mind, be it person or other animal, did when it was alive.

Millions of people believe that because no WMD's were found in Iraq after the war there were none there in the first place. A huge majority of these same people fervently believe in the existance of a god despite there not being a shred of hard evidence in the existance of such a being.

Over the years, I have sadly attended countless autopsies and have thus spoken to many folk of many different creeds who carry out this task. One thing they and I have always agreed on is whatever it is that constituted life has long gone from the room before the boys/girls get on with their duty. The soul, spark, call it what you will, that was present and lit up the room when that person entered has gone somewhere. Now I do not know where and can not say i follow any belief system that has tried to label the eventual destination. All I know for sure is that many people that do that fascinating job have been able to push any form of grief aside by the simple fact that what was there is no longer and death holds little fear for them.

Beg to differ, Limpy. "They" tell me everyone waits for their respective bodies to be consecrated before they go on to the next place. They are no longer in that body, but the spirit hovers until the job is done. Death bothers me not; dealt with it alot. But I always hold respect for what that body and mind, be it person or other animal, did when it was alive.

Can only speak for myself. never seen a hovering spirit. Lots and lots of empty shells, but nothing remotely hovering.

Yes, I only have respect for the forensics folks. Never meant to be disrespectful. Spirits are gone from the bodies, but they like to see how their bodies are taken care of, so I heard.

It's all gonna be great. Just you wait and see..

That's me on the left, 86.

I recently read a post from an esteemed member (no name , pack-drill nor disrespect

for the member) who stated he/she was waiting for the return of the Christ.

Now I would freely admit that I am not the sharpest knife in any body's drawer but

it puzzles me how supposedly smart people can hold such convictions.

Limited as I may be I have read enough to suggest to me that planet Earth might

measure it's age in billions of years rather than thousands and the extent of the

known universe is like WOW.

Please , how do you "believers" relate to this ?

Is scientific opinion totally wrong ?

Is your "God" really just a local administration official ?

I am curious - why the antireligion rant? Is it wrong for people to find comfort and joy out of their personal beliefs? Any religion or philosophy that makes us better people is normally seen as being a good thing. If a catholic can find solice and meaning in a High Mass and be a better person for it then is that wrong? If a muslim can find joy and peace in Allah is that something that makes his less than you because you don't believe in the existance of God. A person worshipping the house spirits who finds comfort knowing that putting an opened coconut, some betel and hand rolled cigarettes will make the ancestors and care for the people who pay respect, is that wrong because you cannot see what they can?

There are many things in this universe that are beyond our understanding but that does not make it invalid. Not that wrong ago it was impossible to fly to the moon, to cure polio, to live underwater but we do and so we have developed. It does not detract from the marvel that is life nor does it remove the beauty that which is the feeling of belonging to this universe of which we are all a part.

Many scientists ranging from mathematicians, astonomers, biochemists, and anthropologists find their belief in the existance of a divine spirit increased the more they study and the more they know. It only increases their wonder that life can exist. We are much more than a sack of chemicals mixed up in a shake and bake to pop out as another vehicle for life. We can put the ingredients into the same pan but not create that which gives us life.

I have consciously excluded Buddhists from the issue because they can skirt around any issue.

Most Buddhist scholars will tell you the same thing, that we are not capable of understanding the universe. To paraphraser Douglas Adams, We know as much about the universe and its workings as a tea leaf understands the East India Company". Personally I believe in the existence of the divine. I don't know what it is or how it works but I have my own personal reasons to accept it. I am not a religious scholar nor am I a member of any clergy. Most buddhist scholars will tell you that we we die we have a great mystery revealed to us. What that mystery is or what happens afterwards we don't know.

Will I go to hel_l for posting this ?

I think we go to the heaven and hel_l we create for ourselves. Me, I am taking my favourite guitar, a couple of guitar picks because I always lose them, I will be cremated in a good, worn in pair of Levi 501s and a old band Tshirt - I don't want to turn up to the afterlife and arrive naked and discover that all the guys are together for a big jam night and not have my stuff ready to rock. Who knows, it may turn out to be totally a waste of time but I like to go prepared.

Religion, still the opium of the masses. Maybe you shouldn't ask is there a god, but why do I ask myself if there is a god.

Curiosity is imprinted in most animals, it is a key tool for survival, it is only logical that we should question the world in which we live.

If there is a divine being and he gave us wisdom in order to find out a universal truth, why do we use that intelligence to kill each other?

Human intelligence is an anomally, when we are all gone nature will return to it's normal state.

There is something with this "spirit" concept. There is definately some kind of life force that is present in the living but absent from the dead. This is why the Buddhist idea of a life after has, to my way of thinking, some credence. Energy cannot be created nor destroyed, merely changed in form. So the concept of a life force being recycled into some other form has it's attractions, I just kinda hope we get a choice in our return vehicle. Besides all that the idea of this party of life continuing without ME is just too much to bear.

Sometimes I think the whole thing with religeous beliefs is people's inability to get their heads around the concept of infinity. Some scientists have postulated that the universe is a bubble of matter in a sea of anti-matter. Okay, that rocks but what is the sea of anti-matter in? What is outside of the universe?

Maybe we are all just figments in a dream, but who is the dreamer and what is the dream?