All vaccines are NOT equal!

[unblocktheplanet]

“I do not believe we should be using AstraZeneca/COVISHIELD [AZ from India] any longer in Canada [or Thailand].

 

“The estimated risk is too high and we have other options. I will go further: NACI is correct in preferring Moderna or Pfizer because of safety, and Health Canada and the Public Health Agency of Canada documents should be quoting a 1 in 26 000 to 1 in 127 272 risk of VITT.

 

“The ones who are saying all vaccines are equal—they are demonstrably wrong. 

 

“The ones who say the risk of getting COVID for almost everyone exceeds the risk of complications from the vaccine—also demonstrably wrong.

 

“Most importantly, these same commentators have made disastrous misstatements or made missteps throughout the pandemic.”  — Andrew Morris, MD, Toronto

 

As usual, the bumbling generals in govt bet on the wrong horse. To be expected, really. They’re waiting for the 30 million tourists this year.

 

Perhaps they can convince Thais to get AZ jabs because they are the only ones free & readily available. AZ will be free because the generals made a crucial mistake! Not for our public health benefit. And I'm betting they can't sell AZ to other countries who have options, so all that profit up in smoke.

 

At least China’s govt allowed its CDC head to speak out to tell the world Sinovac & Sinopharm are not adequate. They didn’t worry about saving face but saving lives.

 

I personally don’t think the mRNA vaccines are the best choices. There are a lot of long-term unknowns. I'm 71--don't much matter for me.

 

We’ll be locking down at home until we get a choice of vaccines. I’d prefer CureVac, Novavax, J&J (even with some VTT side effects), Sputnik V, and the Cuban vaccines, in about that order. And I'm willing to wait or do vaccine tourism. Imagine: Thailand could have benefitted from vaccine tourism but our 'leaders' were selfish & greedy.

 

Frankly, I’m not happy to pay for vaccination due to a wholly preventable situation which was entirely caused by govt incomptetence, greed & corruption.

 

But pay I will (you b-tards!)

 

“Despite nobody paying for their AstraZeneca vaccine, many recipients felt a buyer's remorse this week: that they got an inferior product, or that they were hoodwinked into getting a dangerous product.” He’s recommending those who have gotten a first dose of AZ get a second dose of mRNA.

 

Andrew Morris’ weekly Covid newsletter is awesome & factual. You may wish ro subscribe: "Andrew Morris, MD" <[email protected]>

[Surelynot]

17 minutes ago, unblocktheplanet said:

 

“The ones who are saying all vaccines are equal—they are demonstrably wrong. 

They are all equal in that they all prevent hospitalization and death due to covid19..........I for one would prefer to be vaccinated rather than take my chances of surviving.

[JTXR]

Poor Dr Morris appears to have worked himself into a right lather refuting a proposition ("all vaccines are equal") that no one have ever made.  He should maybe have a nice cup of tea and a Nanaimo Bar and get a grip.

 

[cclub75]

1 hour ago, JTXR said:

Poor Dr Morris appears to have worked himself into a right lather refuting a proposition ("all vaccines are equal") that no one have ever made.  He should maybe have a nice cup of tea and a Nanaimo Bar and get a grip.

 

 

Not explicitly. But factually, of course.

 

Take Thailand for instance

 

You want to be vaccinated.

 

Do you have the choice ?

 

No.

 

Now, it's mainly Sinovac (and a little bit AZ, imported).

 

In june when the local factory will start production, it will be mainly... AZ.

 

That's a fact.

 

Are you willing to take the local AZ because "it's all same-same" ?

 

So the question of the differences between all the vaccines is a good one, and a relevant one.

[treetops]

You could probably find some other doctors agreeing with Andrew Morris, MD, but not a lot.  Most would probably want to slap him.

[Patong2021]

1 hour ago, cclub75 said:

Not explicitly. But factually, of course.

Take Thailand for instance

You want to be vaccinated.

Do you have the choice ?

No.

Now, it's mainly Sinovac (and a little bit AZ, imported).

In june when the local factory will start production, it will be mainly... AZ.

That's a fact.

Are you willing to take the local AZ because "it's all same-same" ?

 

So the question of the differences between all the vaccines is a good one, and a relevant one.

 

You take Thailand situation out of context. There is a woldwide shortage of vaccines. In a perfect world, all countries would have access to the vaccines they need.  Unfortunately, the limiting factor today is lack of production capacity and lack of delivery mechanism (including syringes, vials and supply chain support). All patent protection  could be  removed tomorrow, but problem would remain - because countries cannot make enough vaccine. You are angry at Thailand, but Australia, New Zealand, Canada, South Africa and  many others have the same problem.

 

Thailand must use whatever vaccine it can get. All that is available is Oxford and China vaccine.  It is like when I go to   market and  my preferred  stock is sold out. I must go without (like Australia with no vaccine)  or take another option (like Thailand).  Oxford is suitable for Thailand because of cold chain supply chain logistics characteristics. 

 

Thailand has a prioritization of people to vaccinate and the Oxford and Jansen vaccines are safe for people aged 40+.  The potential of blood clots is now known and understood. More importantly, there is a protocol in place to identify and an effective intervention to treat the very rare side effect.   Thailand is in line with  other countries to access mRNA vaccines. When backorders are  resolved, Thailand will get them.

[starky]

This type of scaremongering honestly shouldn't be permitted. 

  If you want to wait or pay for a specific type of vaccine that's your prerogative. Trying to dissuade people from getting vaccinated is downright criminal.  These sort of threads should not be permitted 

[vinci]

the strength of doses for pfizer 2% and moderna 13%, there is nothing wrong with AstraZeneca, most British are using them, they are recovering covid quite well

[Meat Pie 47]

32 minutes ago, vinci said:

the strength of doses for pfizer 2% and moderna 13%, there is nothing wrong with AstraZeneca, most British are using them, they are recovering covid quite well

in Australia only AZ is recommended for over 50 for under 50 Phizer

[zhounan]

Okay.

I look to the left and they propose a kind of vaccine that will save me.
I look to the right and they propose a kind of vaccine that will save me.
I turn on the TV and they offer me a kind of vaccine that will save me.
I look at my dumbphone and they offer me a kind of vaccine that will save me.
I look at the posters in the mall and they offer me a kind of vaccine that will save me.
I talk to the man in the lift and he offers me some kind of vaccine to save me.
I buy a car and they offer me some kind of vaccine that will save my life.

 

I sit down, breathe, and think: why does everyone want to offer me a vaccine that will save my life. 

 

Someone shoots me in the head. I am dead.

[ExpatOilWorker]

[cclub75]

On 5/9/2021 at 12:21 AM, starky said:

This type of scaremongering honestly shouldn't be permitted. 

  If you want to wait or pay for a specific type of vaccine that's your prerogative. Trying to dissuade people from getting vaccinated is downright criminal.  These sort of threads should not be permitted 

 

"This type of bullying shouldn't be permitted.

If you want to wait or pay for a specific type of vaccine that's your prerogative.

Trying to force people to get injected with unknown products is downright criminal. These sort of threads should not be permitted."

 

Fixed for you.

[Brierley]

I am trying to understand which is the safest vaccine for a person aged 71 years with COPD, has anyone managed to figure out what the league table of preferred vaccines looks like for that profile of person? From what I have seen I think:

 

J&J and Moderna are at the top,

Pfizer is next,

Astra Zeneca and Sinovac are at the bottom.

 

Is that broadly how others see it also?

[unblocktheplanet]

On 5/8/2021 at 8:48 PM, JTXR said:

Poor Dr Morris appears to have worked himself into a right lather refuting a proposition ("all vaccines are equal") that no one have ever made.  He should maybe have a nice cup of tea and a Nanaimo Bar and get a grip.

 

Yum! But those are actually Tofino Bars at the Common Loaf Bakery near the end of the road.

[grain]

On 5/11/2021 at 4:00 PM, Brierley said:

I am trying to understand which is the safest vaccine for a person aged 71 years with COPD, has anyone managed to figure out what the league table of preferred vaccines looks like for that profile of person? From what I have seen I think:

 

J&J and Moderna are at the top,

Pfizer is next,

Astra Zeneca and Sinovac are at the bottom.

 

Is that broadly how others see it also?

Yep that's my order of choices as well.

[unblocktheplanet]

Although apparently people like me should not be allowed to post the views of eminent infectious disease specialists like Dr. Morris, he strengthen his view this week:

 

Queen Victoria and AstraZeneca

Victoria Day is named after Queen Victoria, who was born roughly 200 years ago on May 24, 1819.  Queen Victoria's reign lasted over 63 years, and was remarkable for so many things.  I cannot do her reign any justice as a lot happens in 63 years, including palace intrigue (including "illegitimate" children, suspected but disproven pregnancy out of wedlock, assassination attempts, infidelity, etc.) and domestic and international political machinations.

Despite having more eligible and weddable male candidates than the latest Bachelorette, Victoria fell for her first cousin, Albert. They had 9 children together who all, remarkably, lived to adulthood. (I shouldn't have to remind you that the reason it was remarkable was because now-vaccine-preventable infectious diseases claimed children repeatedly in the 19th century. COVID-19 should now be considered a vaccine-preventable disease.) There are many reasons not to marry your first cousin. Some of you might have more reasons than others. I'm lucky to love all of my first cousins. (Yes, I put that in just in case one of them still reads these things.) But genetic disease is a clear reason.  One of Victoria's sons had Haemophilia B, and at least 2 daughters were carriers.

Haemophilia doesn't lead to clots. On the contrary, it impairs clotting because of a clotting "factor" deficiency—especially when it is beneficial (like after a cut or blunt trauma). It can be a real problem but thankfully we can often provide people the deficient factor when necessary.

VITT, the AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine-associated clotting disorder, isn't just a bleeding problem (due to low platelets, rather than low clotting factors), but it is also a problem because troublesome clots also form. It is why it is so difficult to manage, and I would never trust myself to manage such a complicated problem, but rather enlist the help of bleeding and thrombosis experts like my very smart colleagues Drs. Menaka Pai (who currently shares tons of scientific workload with me) and Michelle Sholzberg (who I have never met in real life but shares having mixed Sephardic and Ashkenazi roots with me).

I bring VITT up, again, because our Federal and Provincial governments continue to contemplate using it.  Some have argued—as the Ontario government just acceded—that patients can receive informed consent regarding the risk of VITT prior to getting a second dose of AZ. They are basing this on rather preliminary UK data. The same UK data that has consistently underestimated the 1st-dose VITT risk (starting off with 1:600K, then 1:250K, and is now down to 1:81K).  They started off with a 1:1M 2nd-dose VITT risk, and now are quoting 1:600K risk after 15 cases. I am fairly certain the likelihood of risk is higher than this, but the magnitude is entirely uncertain.

I am a huge believer in shared decision-making. However, we have long decided that there is a role for medication and vaccine safety regulatory bodies. What widely used vaccine has a substantial harm/mortality signal? Zero. (Yellow Fever would be an exception, with its vaccine-associated viserotropic disease that occurs in 1 in 250K recipients). Wanna know why? Because we cherish and attend meticulously to vaccine safety. Vaccines save lives, and we need to trust the safety of vaccines. We don't leave the safety decision of vaccines up to the public. We never have. And we never should.  Yes, there is choice (although that is also debatable) about whether or not to get vaccinated. But if you are mandating or simply encouraging people to get vaccinated, the decision should be a no-brainer.  I have zero confidence that the public can appreciate not only the VITT risks, but the uncertainty we have around the estimate of those risks, and the balance between risks and severe outcomes of COVID and the risks and severe outcomes from the AZ vaccine. Accordingly, if anyone asks me, I am telling them to wait for an mRNA vaccine for their second dose.

[JTXR]

Heavens above! 

Poor Dr. Morris is slowly (or not so slowly?) morphing into a true nutjob, isn't he?

[unblocktheplanet]

Nope, I don't think so. Herd immunity is, of course, nonsense. But if one wants to be as surely protected against Covid as possible, I'll be following his advice.

 

Namely, taking what they've got here and getting myself to a place with more effective vaccines.

 

It's all a gamble (including life), isn't it?

[mommysboy]

10 hours ago, unblocktheplanet said:

Although apparently people like me should not be allowed to post the views of eminent infectious disease specialists like Dr. Morris, he strengthen his view this week:

 

Queen Victoria and AstraZeneca

Victoria Day is named after Queen Victoria, who was born roughly 200 years ago on May 24, 1819.  Queen Victoria's reign lasted over 63 years, and was remarkable for so many things.  I cannot do her reign any justice as a lot happens in 63 years, including palace intrigue (including "illegitimate" children, suspected but disproven pregnancy out of wedlock, assassination attempts, infidelity, etc.) and domestic and international political machinations.

Despite having more eligible and weddable male candidates than the latest Bachelorette, Victoria fell for her first cousin, Albert. They had 9 children together who all, remarkably, lived to adulthood. (I shouldn't have to remind you that the reason it was remarkable was because now-vaccine-preventable infectious diseases claimed children repeatedly in the 19th century. COVID-19 should now be considered a vaccine-preventable disease.) There are many reasons not to marry your first cousin. Some of you might have more reasons than others. I'm lucky to love all of my first cousins. (Yes, I put that in just in case one of them still reads these things.) But genetic disease is a clear reason.  One of Victoria's sons had Haemophilia B, and at least 2 daughters were carriers.

Haemophilia doesn't lead to clots. On the contrary, it impairs clotting because of a clotting "factor" deficiency—especially when it is beneficial (like after a cut or blunt trauma). It can be a real problem but thankfully we can often provide people the deficient factor when necessary.

VITT, the AstraZeneca and J&J vaccine-associated clotting disorder, isn't just a bleeding problem (due to low platelets, rather than low clotting factors), but it is also a problem because troublesome clots also form. It is why it is so difficult to manage, and I would never trust myself to manage such a complicated problem, but rather enlist the help of bleeding and thrombosis experts like my very smart colleagues Drs. Menaka Pai (who currently shares tons of scientific workload with me) and Michelle Sholzberg (who I have never met in real life but shares having mixed Sephardic and Ashkenazi roots with me).

I bring VITT up, again, because our Federal and Provincial governments continue to contemplate using it.  Some have argued—as the Ontario government just acceded—that patients can receive informed consent regarding the risk of VITT prior to getting a second dose of AZ. They are basing this on rather preliminary UK data. The same UK data that has consistently underestimated the 1st-dose VITT risk (starting off with 1:600K, then 1:250K, and is now down to 1:81K).  They started off with a 1:1M 2nd-dose VITT risk, and now are quoting 1:600K risk after 15 cases. I am fairly certain the likelihood of risk is higher than this, but the magnitude is entirely uncertain.

I am a huge believer in shared decision-making. However, we have long decided that there is a role for medication and vaccine safety regulatory bodies. What widely used vaccine has a substantial harm/mortality signal? Zero. (Yellow Fever would be an exception, with its vaccine-associated viserotropic disease that occurs in 1 in 250K recipients). Wanna know why? Because we cherish and attend meticulously to vaccine safety. Vaccines save lives, and we need to trust the safety of vaccines. We don't leave the safety decision of vaccines up to the public. We never have. And we never should.  Yes, there is choice (although that is also debatable) about whether or not to get vaccinated. But if you are mandating or simply encouraging people to get vaccinated, the decision should be a no-brainer.  I have zero confidence that the public can appreciate not only the VITT risks, but the uncertainty we have around the estimate of those risks, and the balance between risks and severe outcomes of COVID and the risks and severe outcomes from the AZ vaccine. Accordingly, if anyone asks me, I am telling them to wait for an mRNA vaccine for their second dose.

 

To put this in to perspective, most cases are mild- people are often back at work within 2 weeks.

 

Severe cases occur at roughly 3-5 cases per million, death at around 1 per million.

 

Clotting on the second dose is extremely rare.

 

So far there has been 1 death in Australia in 2.1 million vaccinations.

 

The condition is increasingly treatable, and is often averted if the patient presents promptly.

 

The sort of risks here are comparable with the many risks we take just by reaching for the soap, lighting the cooker, etc.

 

 

 

 

[DerbyDan]

i like the pfizer best because they make viagara

[unblocktheplanet]

On 5/23/2021 at 9:01 AM, DerbyDan said:

i like the pfizer best because they make viagara

Unfortunately, they also supply the death drugs for US executions, not quite as much fun with your clothes off. Viagara is the falls (or more usually, the first step--slowly she turns...).

Edited May 24, 2021 by unblocktheplanet
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