Pattaya A Dead or Dying City?

[newnative]

30 minutes ago, chrisandsu said:

I don’t think people get that there is a lot of very rich Thais . They have become land rich (land price in a reasonable area is obscene ) in the last 30 years . My BIL owns around 8 condos in various parts of the country that he bought for cash and can’t be bothered with the hassle of renting them out!  and only sees and stays in them if he’s in that area of the country and can even remembers where they are ! Thailand has a lot of very rich people and a growing upper middle class. I think we get blinkered sometimes in Believing that all Thais come from the poorer tourist sectors .  

   Spot on.  I've mentioned several times living at Lumpini Park Beach and it being so uncrowded even though there are 1800 mostly sold units.  Our next-door neighbors on either side owned the larger 2 bedroom units.  Both nice families from Bangkok.  They only visited a few times a year--usually on long holiday weekends. 

     We also met college professors and Thais in medical fields that also had weekend getaways they had bought--both at Park Beach and Lumpini Seaview behind it.  And, also at Centric Sea when we lived there.  Definitely growing numbers that can afford a small place at the beach.  

   The last project we owned at was at a small project of just 39 large 3 and 4 bedroom condos and a few townhouses right on the beach in Wongamat.  One Bangkok family owned an entire floor of the condos.  I think there were only about 8 condos being lived-in full time.  The rest absentee Thai owners and some wealthy Western owners that came during the winter.   

    

[Susco]

14 hours ago, newnative said:

What projects have 'nobody living inside'?  

 

Suan Sawarn springs to mind

 

https://www.hipflat.sg/projects/suan-sawarn-coizvx

 

 

[kingofthemountain]

11 minutes ago, Susco said:

 

Suan Sawarn springs to mind

 

https://www.hipflat.sg/projects/suan-sawarn-coizvx

 

 

Also the winner 2 in Pratamnak

the project is finished since years but afaik 

for some reason there is nobody linving inside

(Maybe a legal or safety issue?)

https://www.thailand-property.com/condo/11328/the-winner-2

 

On the other hand The Winner 1, few dozens meter from here, is totally fine with a decent amount of people living inside

https://www.hipflat.co.th/en/projects/the-winner-gkxwgz

 

 

[tomyami]

was in pattaya recently looked at a few condos Arcadia 26sqm tiny balcony & unix even a 2 bed with no balcony, had a small but no furniture space sad they built these i would never rent without a decent balcony even the base tiny balcony and the new edge project seems balconies are less and shoe box condos more, lot to be said for spacious view talay builds .

 

Walking street seems abandoned ideal opportunity to demolish and rebuild imo

 

[tlandtday]

4 minutes ago, tomyami said:

was in pattaya recently looked at a few condos Arcadia 26sqm tiny balcony & unix even a 2 bed with no balcony, had a small but no furniture space sad they built these i would never rent without a decent balcony even the base tiny balcony and the new edge project seems balconies are less and shoe box condos more, lot to be said for spacious view talay builds .

 

Walking street seems abandoned ideal opportunity to demolish and rebuild imo

 

Most of the new condos are very poorly constructed and shoe box size with terrible intererior designs.  There are lots of spacious older condos just buy and renovate to your degree of luxury.  Anyone buying these shoeboxes when they have a choice of a larger older unit is foolish.  Ever notice that most of the pics of these new units are of the common areas.  Maybe just ask them if you can get a card pass and sleep by the pool lol.

[newnative]

14 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

Also the winner 2 in Pratamnak

the project is finished since years but afaik 

for some reason there is nobody linving inside

(Maybe a legal or safety issue?)

https://www.thailand-property.com/condo/11328/the-winner-2

 

On the other hand The Winner 1, few dozens meter from here, is totally fine with a decent amount of people living inside

https://www.hipflat.co.th/en/projects/the-winner-gkxwgz

 

 

    Had actually never heard of the project posted by Susco.  Have driven by Winner 2.  I don't know what the story is, either.  My partner and I have only bought seaview to live in so we haven't focused much on these little low-rise projects.  

[newnative]

12 minutes ago, tomyami said:

was in pattaya recently looked at a few condos Arcadia 26sqm tiny balcony & unix even a 2 bed with no balcony, had a small but no furniture space sad they built these i would never rent without a decent balcony even the base tiny balcony and the new edge project seems balconies are less and shoe box condos more, lot to be said for spacious view talay builds .

 

Walking street seems abandoned ideal opportunity to demolish and rebuild imo

 

     I think I know the 2 bedroom model you mentioned at Unixx--balcony stretches the full length of the living room but is only about 60cm deep.  About the only thing you could do is stand on it--or maybe sit sideways on a stool.  What were they thinking?  I always want a good-size balcony, too.

[Bruno123]

22 hours ago, newnative said:

      You may not 'see the point' but it's the developers who do see the point and are building 'all these condos'.   As I said in my earlier post, most of the projects in Pattaya have been successful.  The developers have, so far, been able to find buyers for what they build.  Even now, a huge, new luxury project--Arom Wongamat--is getting started.  50 stories proposed with a starting price of around 6MB for the smallest unit size.  Will it be able to find enough buyers?  Time will tell.  

 

 

Another lifestyle project, but really just shoe boxes in a good location.. Luxury is not 37.5 sq.m. That's a maid's quarters.

Look at the state of the project next door to it. Becoming an eyesore.

 

[kingofthemountain]

2 hours ago, chrisandsu said:

I don’t think people get that there is a lot of very rich Thais . They have become land rich (land price in a reasonable area is obscene ) in the last 30 years . My BIL owns around 8 condos in various parts of the country that he bought for cash and can’t be bothered with the hassle of renting them out!  and only sees and stays in them if he’s in that area of the country and can even remembers where they are ! Thailand has a lot of very rich people and a growing upper middle class. I think we get blinkered sometimes in Believing that all Thais come from the poorer tourist sectors .  

The problem is the very rich Thais are a tiny minority of the population

and obviously they aren't able or intersted in buying all the condo stock

even with the influx of foreign buyers from abroad before covid, the unsold

stock is still huge

 

https://www.thailand-property.net/bangkok-biggest-number-unsold-properties/

 

The numbers in this link are not the more recents, but imo still accurates

the situation is even probably worse now

 

''Thailand has too many unsold properties, particularly residential properties. Across the country, 454,814 residential units failed to sell in 2018. All these units combined had a total value of $41 billion USD, said Sopon Pornchokchai, president of the Agency for Real Estate Affairs.'' 

[newnative]

22 minutes ago, Bruno123 said:

 

 

Another lifestyle project, but really just shoe boxes in a good location.. Luxury is not 37.5 sq.m. That's a maid's quarters.

Look at the state of the project next door to it. Becoming an eyesore.

 

   Yes, shoeboxes in a good location.  But, also with terrific amenities.  That seems to be the game plan with most new Pattaya and Bangkok condos that I have toured.  You want to live in a condo project with a boxing ring?  There is one in Bangkok.  Plus golf driving range simulators, putting greens, indoor and outdoor theaters, multiple 'co-living spaces', huge lobbies,  libraries, sky pools and sky lounges with bars and kitchens, yoga, exotic garden spaces, jogging trails, sauna, steam, large gyms, elevator car parking garages, private massage rooms, the list goes on.   It all comes with a big price, of course.  

[Bruno123]

3 minutes ago, newnative said:

   Yes, shoeboxes in a good location.  But, also with terrific amenities.  That seems to be the game plan with most new Pattaya and Bangkok condos that I have toured.  You want to live in a condo project with a boxing ring?  There is one in Bangkok.  Plus golf driving range simulators, putting greens, indoor and outdoor theaters, multiple 'co-living spaces', huge lobbies,  libraries, sky pools and sky lounges with bars and kitchens, yoga, exotic garden spaces, jogging trails, sauna, steam, large gyms, elevator car parking garages, private massage rooms, the list goes on.   It all comes with a big price, of course.  

 

 

Quote

Modern Fitness Center, Yoga Room, Golf VR (simulator), Kid’s Pool, Kid’s Playroom, Onsen, Steam Room and Salon/Spa services

 

doesn't qualify as "terrific facilities" to me. Perhaps someone coming from a bedsitter in the city centre might be impressed. They seem almost standard to me. Yoga room? What is that? Just a space. Kid's pool? Standard. Fitness centre? Standard. Kid's playroom? Standard. Salon and spa services? Standard. Even the lowliest of complexes will have private facilities.  Rooftop pool? Again, an 8k per month rental can have a rooftop swimming pool. 

It's all to distract from the fact that you have no space and that you are paying for things that you can get nearby for much less. Salon and spa service? Walk one hundred metres and get the same service for one fifth of the price. There's a sucker born every minute.

[Henryford]

2 hours ago, newnative said:

   Spot on.  I've mentioned several times living at Lumpini Park Beach and it being so uncrowded even though there are 1800 mostly sold units.  Our next-door neighbors on either side owned the larger 2 bedroom units.  Both nice families from Bangkok.  They only visited a few times a year--usually on long holiday weekends. 

     We also met college professors and Thais in medical fields that also had weekend getaways they had bought--both at Park Beach and Lumpini Seaview behind it.  And, also at Centric Sea when we lived there.  Definitely growing numbers that can afford a small place at the beach.  

   The last project we owned at was at a small project of just 39 large 3 and 4 bedroom condos and a few townhouses right on the beach in Wongamat.  One Bangkok family owned an entire floor of the condos.  I think there were only about 8 condos being lived-in full time.  The rest absentee Thai owners and some wealthy Western owners that came during the winter.   

    

 

Are all these absent owners paying their annual common fees? The late payers in my condo are always the ones who don't live there.

[newnative]

8 minutes ago, Bruno123 said:

 

 

 

doesn't qualify as "terrific facilities" to me. Perhaps someone coming from a bedsitter in the city centre might be impressed. They seem almost standard to me. Yoga room? What is that? Just a space. Kid's pool? Standard. Fitness centre? Standard. Kid's playroom? Standard. Salon and spa services? Standard. Even the lowliest of complexes will have private facilities.  Rooftop pool? Again, an 8k per month rental can have a rooftop swimming pool. 

It's all to distract from the fact that you have no space and that you are paying for things that you can get nearby for much less. Salon and spa service? Walk one hundred metres and get the same service for one fifth of the price. There's a sucker born every minute.

     You might not think the amenities I mentioned are terrific but some others might.  I didn't say all of them would appeal to me as a buyer or renter--I have no need for a boxing ring.  I was making the observation that this is the trend with new condo projects--both in Pattaya and Bangkok.  Take a close look at the new Riviera Jomtien sometime.  You will find the amenities far outpace older condo projects--which often came with just a pool and gym.  That's the trend for now--for better or worse.   Compare Riviera with older projects like the View Talays, which only have pools as the sole amenity.

     Obviously, as a buyer or renter you can decide what appeals to you in condo living.  Some might choose an older project offering larger condos--my choice--and some might want one of the newer projects with smaller units but more amenities.  Nice to have choices, I think.  

[DerbyDan]

?

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by DerbyDan

[DerbyDan]

2 hours ago, kingofthemountain said:

On the other hand The Winner 1, few dozens meter from here, is totally fine with a decent amount of people living inside

https://www.hipflat.co.th/en/projects/the-winner-gkxwgz

 

i rented a monthly unit at winner 1. i got there early and the landkord, a russian guy, was sweeping a females clothing and shoes out of the unit. the entire building was empty the whole time. even building reception never showed up.

 

when i left at the end of the month the landlord never showed and i just left the keys on the counter and left the door unlocked.

Edited May 18, 2021 by DerbyDan

[kingofthemountain]

10 minutes ago, DerbyDan said:

 

i lived at winner 1 for 3 months. the entire place was @rap empty. even reception never bothered to show up.

To be honest that was the first place i visited more than 3 years ago when i was searching for a condo to rent in Pattaya, and i really liked it

 

Unfortunately someone made a better offer than me to the owner, so i have to search somewhere else

 

I found something not far from The Winner and i stayed at this place during 1 year

 

I have now changed my location and i haven't been back in Pratamnak area since months

 

i am sorry to know The Winner is now in the sad state you describe

imo the location and the building were nice

Edited May 18, 2021 by kingofthemountain

[Bruno123]

21 minutes ago, newnative said:

     You might not think the amenities I mentioned are terrific but some others might.  I didn't say all of them would appeal to me as a buyer or renter--I have no need for a boxing ring.  I was making the observation that this is the trend with new condo projects--both in Pattaya and Bangkok.  Take a close look at the new Riviera Jomtien sometime.  You will find the amenities far outpace older condo projects--which often came with just a pool and gym.  That's the trend for now--for better or worse.   Compare Riviera with older projects like the View Talays, which only have pools as the sole amenity.

     Obviously, as a buyer or renter you can decide what appeals to you in condo living.  Some might choose an older project offering larger condos--my choice--and some might want one of the newer projects with smaller units but more amenities.  Nice to have choices, I think.  

 

 

You used the word "terrific". That would indicate that you thought them terrific.

We weren't writing about trends, we were writing about a particular 'lifestyle' project.

Amenities far outpacing older projects are again just your words and your opinion. Comparing Riviera and View Talay is somewhat disingenuous. Why not compare with an older luxury development? You know; one with tennis and squash courts and gardens and lots of space. Marble and wood utilised throughout; as opposed to vague "superior materials". You know that kind of thing? Actual luxury as opposed to a pretend lifestyle that involves cramped living spaces and shared facilities that you will likely rarely utilise; but for which you pay through the nose anyway.

Nice location but that's about it.

 

 

 

[DerbyDan]

13 minutes ago, kingofthemountain said:

To be honest that was the first place i visited more than 3 years ago when i was searching for a condo to rent in Pattaya, and i really liked it

 

Unfortunately someone made a better offer than me to the owner, so i have to search somewhere else

 

I found something not far from The Winner and i stayed at this place during 1 year

 

I have now changed my location and i haven't been back in Pratamnak area since months

 

i am sorry to know The Winner is now in the sad state you describe

imo the location and the building were nice

 

well i actually liked it. i like empty buildings and the rooftop pool and units were nice. it was just weird being there alone.

 

its all russian owned. they only show up certain times of the year. they are real calendar people.

 

theres a bulletin board by the elevators with units available if it sounds like your jam.

Edited May 18, 2021 by DerbyDan

[J Town]

1 hour ago, Henryford said:

 

Are all these absent owners paying their annual common fees? The late payers in my condo are always the ones who don't live there.

The place I live in, the builder wants to make it a short time hotel. Mind you, these are luxurious - 148 sq meters, incredible view. He paid all the common fees of those in arrears with the caveat he gets to vote for them by proxy. He now has the votes and I'm in the middle of moving out at this very moment.

[tomyami]

when i went recently to look at condo any size below 30sqm is a shoe box ok 4 a couple of days with the nice facilaties but the have built to many and are trying to also market as long term where they are only hotel rooms then i prefer to stay in a hotel.

The future traveller will be more short term is the target market then ok

wont be me I have left wont be back for a couple of years.

Edited May 18, 2021 by tomyami

[ChipButty]

1 hour ago, J Town said:

The place I live in, the builder wants to make it a short time hotel. Mind you, these are luxurious - 148 sq meters, incredible view. He paid all the common fees of those in arrears with the caveat he gets to vote for them by proxy. He now has the votes and I'm in the middle of moving out at this very moment.

You should stick around for a while, could be fun "Short time Hotel" 

[J Town]

1 hour ago, ChipButty said:

You should stick around for a while, could be fun "Short time Hotel" 

Noooooooooooo. Plenty of those around, precisely why I moved to a place that WASN'T such. I get your humor and I'll pass thank you.

[kuma]

7 hours ago, chrisandsu said:

I don’t think people get that there is a lot of very rich Thais . They have become land rich (land price in a reasonable area is obscene ) in the last 30 years . My BIL owns around 8 condos in various parts of the country that he bought for cash and can’t be bothered with the hassle of renting them out!  and only sees and stays in them if he’s in that area of the country and can even remembers where they are ! Thailand has a lot of very rich people and a growing upper middle class. I think we get blinkered sometimes in Believing that all Thais come from the poorer tourist sectors .  

Good of you to use the polite term blinkered. I have lived and worked here almost 20 years now and in the professions, for international private sector companies, the compensation packages can be very lucrative for locals, especially those that had land/homes to begin with, and for sure those that made wise choices in terms of capital deployment into more land or rental units have done very well....I know of so many just within my careeer circles. But the demographic of posters here is heavily skewed to part time visitors and/or retirees that tend to stay firmly in the areas heavily populated w foreigners (ie tourist zones mostly) and as such they have little interaction / realization with / of the local middle class. Not an indictment, just an observation. Out here in the south east beyond Chonburi there is a lot of wealth and a lot wealty bkk people buying land and bringing more prosperity.

[newnative]

3 hours ago, Bruno123 said:

 

 

You used the word "terrific". That would indicate that you thought them terrific.

We weren't writing about trends, we were writing about a particular 'lifestyle' project.

Amenities far outpacing older projects are again just your words and your opinion. Comparing Riviera and View Talay is somewhat disingenuous. Why not compare with an older luxury development? You know; one with tennis and squash courts and gardens and lots of space. Marble and wood utilised throughout; as opposed to vague "superior materials". You know that kind of thing? Actual luxury as opposed to a pretend lifestyle that involves cramped living spaces and shared facilities that you will likely rarely utilise; but for which you pay through the nose anyway.

Nice location but that's about it.

 

 

 

     Still shooting the messenger.    Yes, some of the amenities in the new projects are terrific.  I said not all of them would appeal to me--and mentioned the boxing ring.  I'm certainly missing my condo's pool, gym,  library, and ping pong.  All terrific, by the way.

    I was originally commenting on your complaint that new condos are shoeboxes in good locations.  I agreed that, yes, they are but I was also pointing out that that is the trend--and they do come with a lot of amenities to try to make up for the small unit sizes. I don't know what you mean by 'lifestyle project'.  

    You may not have been writing about trends but I was--and the View Talays and the Riviera projects are great examples of the point I was making.  I used them because both have some units for sale at around the same price points for what I am talking about.

    11 years ago when my partner and I came to Pattaya the VTs were probably the biggest game in town if you wanted to live in a seaview condo and your budget was maybe around 3 or 4 MB.  We ended up living in VT3, VT5C and D, and VT7.

    They were all highrises, each with lots of units and a big pool.   Small, open-air lobbies with a couch or two.  Some shops on the first floor.   Not enough elevators, in my opinion. The condos were sold as empty shells, without a finished floor or kitchen.  And, that was about it.  

    Fast forward to today and what is now being built in comparison to the View Talays of 11 years ago.  Going shopping for a condo and having a 3MB budget, you can still buy a 48sqm studio with a seaview at, say, VT7.  Your single amenity will be the one pool.  

    For that same 3MB, you can get a smaller 27sqm studio with a seaview at Riviera Jomtien.  In contrast to the VTs, Riviera has 2 sky pools and a third large lagoon pool.  Outdoor sky gardens and deck areas.  Billiards room.  Very large, air-conditioned gym.  Several very nicely decorated sky lounges and lobbies scattered all over.   Outdoor ping pong--something I hadn't seen before and it looked fun.  As did the Secret Garden.  

     I don't live in View Talay now or Riviera.  What I thought was interesting was the contrast between the two and how projects have changed in the last few years.  Markland, Jomtien Plaza, Metro, Pattaya Hill, and some other projects of the VT era could also have been used.  With the number of new and old projects in Pattaya you have a good selection to rent or buy depending on what appeals to you.  

     

[DerbyDan]

4 hours ago, tomyami said:

when i went recently to look at condo any size below 30sqm is a shoe box ok 4 a couple of days with the nice facilaties but the have built to many and are trying to also market as long term where they are only hotel rooms then i prefer to stay in a hotel.

The future traveller will be more short term is the target market then ok

wont be me I have left wont be back for a couple of years.

have fun in hawaii

[chrisandsu]

3 hours ago, kuma said:

Good of you to use the polite term blinkered. I have lived and worked here almost 20 years now and in the professions, for international private sector companies, the compensation packages can be very lucrative for locals, especially those that had land/homes to begin with, and for sure those that made wise choices in terms of capital deployment into more land or rental units have done very well....I know of so many just within my careeer circles. But the demographic of posters here is heavily skewed to part time visitors and/or retirees that tend to stay firmly in the areas heavily populated w foreigners (ie tourist zones mostly) and as such they have little interaction / realization with / of the local middle class. Not an indictment, just an observation. Out here in the south east beyond Chonburi there is a lot of wealth and a lot wealty bkk people buying land and bringing more prosperity.

I can see why though . Most of Pattayas Thai residents  are from  the issarn corridor , it has and probably always will be cut off from metropolitan Bangkok areas where a lot of the money is (rayong as well) it’s like a country within a country . 

[Bruno123]

2 hours ago, newnative said:

     Still shooting the messenger.    Yes, some of the amenities in the new projects are terrific.  I said not all of them would appeal to me--and mentioned the boxing ring.  I'm certainly missing my condo's pool, gym,  library, and ping pong.  All terrific, by the way.

    I was originally commenting on your complaint that new condos are shoeboxes in good locations.  I agreed that, yes, they are but I was also pointing out that that is the trend--and they do come with a lot of amenities to try to make up for the small unit sizes. I don't know what you mean by 'lifestyle project'.  

    You may not have been writing about trends but I was--and the View Talays and the Riviera projects are great examples of the point I was making.  I used them because both have some units for sale at around the same price points for what I am talking about.

    11 years ago when my partner and I came to Pattaya the VTs were probably the biggest game in town if you wanted to live in a seaview condo and your budget was maybe around 3 or 4 MB.  We ended up living in VT3, VT5C and D, and VT7.

    They were all highrises, each with lots of units and a big pool.   Small, open-air lobbies with a couch or two.  Some shops on the first floor.   Not enough elevators, in my opinion. The condos were sold as empty shells, without a finished floor or kitchen.  And, that was about it.  

    Fast forward to today and what is now being built in comparison to the View Talays of 11 years ago.  Going shopping for a condo and having a 3MB budget, you can still buy a 48sqm studio with a seaview at, say, VT7.  Your single amenity will be the one pool.  

    For that same 3MB, you can get a smaller 27sqm studio with a seaview at Riviera Jomtien.  In contrast to the VTs, Riviera has 2 sky pools and a third large lagoon pool.  Outdoor sky gardens and deck areas.  Billiards room.  Very large, air-conditioned gym.  Several very nicely decorated sky lounges and lobbies scattered all over.   Outdoor ping pong--something I hadn't seen before and it looked fun.  As did the Secret Garden.  

     I don't live in View Talay now or Riviera.  What I thought was interesting was the contrast between the two and how projects have changed in the last few years.  Markland, Jomtien Plaza, Metro, Pattaya Hill, and some other projects of the VT era could also have been used.  With the number of new and old projects in Pattaya you have a good selection to rent or buy depending on what appeals to you.  

     

 

 

Lost interest after the first two terrifics. I hope there isn't anything important in there as I haven't bothered to read anything after that. Spoiled it for yourself. Maybe someone else will take an interest; then it won't have all been for nothing.

[kuma]

13 hours ago, DerbyDan said:

 

well i actually liked it. i like empty buildings and the rooftop pool and units were nice. it was just weird being there alone.

 

its all russian owned. they only show up certain times of the year. they are real calendar people.

 

theres a bulletin board by the elevators with units available if it sounds like your jam.

real calendar people lmao...yea working people from a northern country, wonder what they will do? Hmmm lets look at snowbirds in NA and see if there are similarities....fml

[elgenon]

On 5/16/2021 at 8:10 PM, AlfHuy said:

Which idiot would pay for a girl, telling some porkpies via video call.

My bud met a guy who had his system down. Had many videos to make the "girls" seem really interested in the dudes. I forget the details he told me. He was sad he wasn't tech enough to follow suit. Though I think he had some compunctions.

 

The guy was making very good money. The girls weren't. Guys want to believe. 

[elgenon]

On 5/16/2021 at 8:54 PM, J Town said:

I watched a view of the livestreams. They're quite boring if you've actually been to a Soi 6 bar, but there were HUNDREDS of guys from around the world buying the girls "drinks" - colored water at 150 baht/drink. The money was pouring in.

If you feel you are getting a fair return, what the heck. If not, smarten up.

 

Yes, there is money to be made. But I couldn't do it.